Dunky aside (cause frankly he's like some killer robot from the future) is there a correlation to width between footstraps and hand position on boom? looks like Peters feet are quite far apart (might be preference), maybe that also contributes to his hand positions on the boom could he potentially have wide hands to counter the aggressive boom height??
ok barn, of course your right, as you say you are as qualified as they come.
apparently macro is stubborn because, ok, i'll take your word for it.
and the way to teach someone is to single them out, laugh at them and embarrass them into changing.
yadda yadda yadda,
another seabreeze thread down the gurgler.Select to expand quotebarn said..Gestalt said..
I wasn't trawling. dunkerbeck is known for his wide grip. not trying to prove you wrong at all but you should accept that in speed sailing the stances are varied across the board. some stances just look wrong and yet the guys are capable of doing over 40 knots regularly.
macro has come here looking for help. his stance is directly tied into how his sail is rigged which is why people are trying to help him with rigging. he rigged his sail on the day to suit the wind which was light. the result is he's not completely happy with it. in that photo it would be lucky to be 12 knots.
the choice is your's.
you can offer advice,
or you can continue to be sarcastic towards others. we're not at kindy anymore barn.
We're not in kindy, everyone's getting old, fast! We don't have time to pussyfoot around!
I've done my time correcting peoples stance, it's a full time job. I'm as qualified as it comes. The easiest way to fix somebodies stance is to make them accept they're doing everything wrong.. Especially if they're as stubborn as Macro..
A great way to improve someones sailing is to make them watch a video of themselves in front of an audience of other windsurfers. Sit down, get the pause button out, and dissect their session frame by frame.. When someone witnesses their mates having a chuckle at their mistakes, the next day, they're on the water and they try harder than ever to change..
Regarding his equipment being the root of all his stance issues, I bet the Black Power Ranger (aka kato) could still manage that textbook stance on the exact same kit, even if it is rigged like a dogs breakfast..
There is other explanation for that wide hand position I think. Over there we could possibly sail with one hand on the boom only because conditions are so benign but at my everyday sailing on very rough water , strongly overpowered on this same sail that works for me at 90% 10 to 25 knots winds, with extreme gusts that habit helps to stay alive ( works for me at least) .
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
There is other explanation for that wide hand position I think. Over there we could possibly sail with one hand on the boom only because conditions are so benign but at my everyday sailing on very rough water , strongly overpowered on this sail that works for me at 90% 10 to 25 knots winds, with extreme gusts that habit helps to stay alive ( works for me at least) .
Sweet, well if it works then cool, I think we all recon you should try a few new things cause you've improved heaps in the last few months and something might lead to a breakthrough. I have a seat harness you can have if you want one
Select to expand quoteikw777 said..
Boom between shoulder and chin.
Change to seat harness (Dakine Fusions are good with a moderate hook height and back support) for slalom and freeride sailing.
Fit 28 inch harness lines.
No need to spread arms so far apart if lines are set properly. Ideally shoulder width apart.
Under hand grip on front hand except when water starting.
Always start with max downhaul and then work backwards.
Use as little extension as possible to get max downhaul (I am always block-to-block at max).
Measure your boom to check the length you're setting it at.
Try to set boom length so there is no gap between clew and tailpiece when outhaul is set correctly.
Do not over-outhaul.
Bigger fin for bigger sails.
Rear strap should be in the middle of it's fore-aft adjustment (not all the way back).
Your sail isn't designed to sweep the deck like a race sail so don't worry about that too much. It has a higher clew to help you out in rough water.
Finally, if you really want make your life easy and have more fun - go camless!
+1
I am going shopping for new proper seat harness, and follow point by point instruction above 
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
There is other explanation for that wide hand position I think. Over there we could possibly sail with one hand on the boom only because conditions are so benign but at my everyday sailing on very rough water , strongly overpowered on this same sail that works for me at 90% 10 to 25 knots winds, with extreme gusts that habit helps to stay alive ( works for me at least) .
Works for you? you started this thread because you wanted help, now your just dealing out excuses.
This is why you are not the sailor you want to be. Your a hack.
Tip 1:
If you have an excuse for doing all the things your doing wrong, give up. You are as good as you are going to get.
Tip 2:
Listen to the experienced.
No more 'will a 400 RDM no name I've had in my shed for a decade work in my 7.8m 2014 NP race sail?'.
No more 'i sail with this twisted up stance because blah blah BS'. No more ' i can hold my 8.0 in 25 knots'.
You should not be 'experimenting' with your sailing to try and discover the new super combination of running 9m2 sails on 40 wide speed boards with 80cm formula fins. Get it?
Use sails with recommended mast, on recommended board with recommended fins. Use orthodox techniques.
Yip Ian knows a thing or two mate, and he sails in much rougher conditions than the broadwater, trust us its worth a go!! 
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said...Gestalt said..
I think there is only one thing to do.
we should all go back there again next year and work on our stances. 
That is actually very good idea. This year Kato has very informative presentation about speed sailing in general.
Next year we could run a speed clinic one day to learn and find out what we could improve in our stance and speed sailing.
no problems. I'll put it on the program. I've organised tutorial sessions in the past for burrum.
kato needs to take all credit for his effort. He wanted to do it to help the guys that aren't exposed to this kind of thing.
one way to learn is to get involved in racing and that puts you around people with skills. At burrum you were sharing the water with multiple world, national and state champs. It's just not obvious because they are their to have fun.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..Macroscien said...Gestalt said..
I think there is only one thing to do.
we should all go back there again next year and work on our stances.
That is actually very good idea. This year Kato has very informative presentation about speed sailing in general.
Next year we could run a speed clinic one day to learn and find out what we could improve in our stance and speed sailing.
no problems. I'll put it on the program. I've organised tutorial sessions in the past for burrum.
kato needs to take all credit for his effort. He wanted to do it to help the guys that aren't exposed to this kind of thing.
one way to learn is to get involved in racing and that puts you around people with skills. At burrum you were sharing the water with multiple world, national and state champs. It's just not obvious because they are their to have fun.
Yep just one more huge positive for the event, its a great proactive/progressive way to pass the time with a real expert especially if you get a windless day
Select to expand quoteboardboy said..Macroscien said..
There is other explanation for that wide hand position I think. Over there we could possibly sail with one hand on the boom only because conditions are so benign but at my everyday sailing on very rough water , strongly overpowered on this same sail that works for me at 90% 10 to 25 knots winds, with extreme gusts that habit helps to stay alive ( works for me at least) .
Works for you? you started this thread because you wanted help, now your just dealing out excuses.
This is why you are not the sailor you want to be. Your a hack.
Tip 1:
If you have an excuse for doing all the things your doing wrong, give up. You are as good as you are going to get.
Tip 2:
Listen to the experienced.
No more 'will a 400 RDM no name I've had in my shed for a decade work in my 7.8m 2014 NP race sail?'.
No more 'i sail with this twisted up stance because blah blah BS'. No more ' i can hold my 8.0 in 25 knots'.
You should not be 'experimenting' with your sailing to try and discover the new super combination of running 9m2 sails on 40 wide speed boards with 80cm formula fins. Get it?
Use sails with recommended mast, on recommended board with recommended fins.
ok, you are right. There were all my own experiments that doesn't work obviously.
Now is time to have this things right and correct wrong habits.
That is sole purpose of this thread.
Rid off all "wrongs" ,
Will take some time but still possible. Much better could be learn everything in right time , first time.
Macro,your doing just fine.
For the wind conditions and the cut of the sail your using the rig looks fine.
Experience counts for alot and time on water is giving you that.
Dont get too technical and just enjoy, experiment and you will learn to feel the differences in set up.
Everyone is different, size weight,strength ,attitude, etc.
You will find your own style.
Just enjoy.
But what the hell do I know.
Select to expand quoteikw777 said..
Jeebus guys, stop the negative sledging and start helping a sailing brother.
+1
thank you for easy to follow instruction. I think that matters we approach here are quite universal and many more beginners , aspiring amateurs speed
sailors have similar problems. Switch from Sunday sailing to GPS speed sailing is quite dramatic.
Select to expand quoteikw777 said..
Jeebus guys, stop the negative sledging and start helping a sailing brother.
is this your first time here?
Select to expand quotemonaro said..
But what the hell do I know.
apparently nothing.
Select to expand quotebarn said..
A great way to improve someones sailing is to make them watch a video of themselves in front of an audience of other windsurfers. Sit down, get the pause button out, and dissect their session frame by frame.. When someone witnesses their mates having a chuckle at their mistakes, the next day, they're on the water and they try harder than ever to change..
This especially makes a difference when learning to gybe. You may think you are learning forward, but when you actually see how far you aren't leaning forward, it makes you want to change. Your mates telling you is not quite the same.
The Guy Cribb course in Safety Bay was good for this, because it meant that you could see the footage at lunch time or after the session and know what you had to try to correct next session. Well worth it.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
I'll put it on the program. I've organised tutorial sessions in the past for burrum.
kato needs to take all credit for his effort. He wanted to do it to help the guys that aren't exposed to this kind of thing.
.
Event like that at Burrum is real eyes opener. Chance to sail along/follow Kato, Vandoo, Boombuster and others is life time experience.
As for next year clinic I could donate you HDD camera and we could record and replay sailing moments in the evening at the BBQ for general audience analysis.
For some there could be chance to improve on something for others just confirmation everything is in perfect order already.
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said..
Event like that at Burrum is real eyes opener. Chance to sail along/follow Kato, Vandoo, Glen and others is life time experience.
Don't follow Kato, you are likely to hit a sandbar!
Select to expand quoteboardboy said..Macroscien said..
There is other explanation for that wide hand position I think. Over there we could possibly sail with one hand on the boom only because conditions are so benign but at my everyday sailing on very rough water , strongly overpowered on this same sail that works for me at 90% 10 to 25 knots winds, with extreme gusts that habit helps to stay alive ( works for me at least) .
Works for you? you started this thread because you wanted help, now your just dealing out excuses.
This is why you are not the sailor you want to be. Your a hack.
Tip 1:
If you have an excuse for doing all the things your doing wrong, give up. You are as good as you are going to get.
Tip 2:
Listen to the experienced.
No more 'will a 400 RDM no name I've had in my shed for a decade work in my 7.8m 2014 NP race sail?'.
No more 'i sail with this twisted up stance because blah blah BS'. No more ' i can hold my 8.0 in 25 knots'.
You should not be 'experimenting' with your sailing to try and discover the new super combination of running 9m2 sails on 40 wide speed boards with 80cm formula fins. Get it?
Use sails with recommended mast, on recommended board with recommended fins. Use orthodox techniques.
Boardboy has a big point here. There is continuously people asking if they put some old fiberglass 460 mast (with a long extension in some newish 8.6m sail that they have) will work? Flex top constant curve hard top soft top soft co@k what ever.
Next time you guys are on the water have a look at the kit that the most exclusive GPS Speed Sailing team runs. The exact masts that the sail manufacturers recommend. Not the masts that Seabreazers recommend. This is why they are so dominant every time they hit the water. All you have to do is average out the speeds of all the different teams on the water and SWAT is always up the top. That is if they put there beer down and can be bothered to show everyone how it is done...
All the blokes (and Gals) that go fast have spent plenty of cash on there kit over the years. Going fast is not cheap. Unless you get a Kite!!! Now don't even get me started on the SWAT Team fin collection. Some have seen a small part of this.
wowzer this forums gone nuts tonight.
peace good wiinds fellow dudes
.
Hey Macro drop by wello sometime, see if we can get ya sorted.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
i started thinking tactics.
you're sailing in qld. so the top guys, like vando, glynn, brad etc know to play the percentages. ie. time on the water. ultimately you are looking for the best gust you can find and that means being in the right place at the right time or just being on the course the most gets you more opportunities.
when getting onto the course they are looking for a gust to run down the course. once they get the gust they milk it for all they can. the stonger it is the deeper they can go and the faster they can max out at.
you will go faster running at deeper angles. that means usually bearing off or sailing an arc right to the point where you feel the sail losses power and holding it there.
places like burrum main run or sandy point allow force you to bear away as you sail the course. but places like wello or burrum northern run require you to do bear ways to fin good angle.
on couses like that that are straight lines or squarer wait for the gust and ride it t opick up speed. once your hitting you top speeds then bear away and milk the gust for all it is worth.
you may have noticed the guys at burrum doing big bear ways. lake George would be the same. you grab a gust and milk it. if oyu can easily sail back upwind then you either aren't going deep enough or your sail is to flat or both.
generally speaking.Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
I'd struggle to commit to taping people because I've got a lot to do during the event. but if you want to do it then go for it. we've plenty of laptops around so you can watch back your footage.
for what it's worth,
you have one of the best tools now. your gps. that will show you what gains you can get immediately. just remember to change one thing at a time so you know what works. for eg. go for a sail, do a few runs then add on some downhaul. what does the gps say? do the same with fins. go for a sail then change your fin. what does the gps say?
as a general over view.
i cannot understate how important rig tuning and fin tuning are with speed sailing. that's the difference between sunday sailing and speed sailing. knowing how to get the best out of your gear. whilst you don't need a specific brand of gear to go fast you do need to know how to tweak the gear you got.
if we go back and look at your images. your boom is set high because your sail is set with minimal downhaul. not enough downhaul allows the draft to sit higher in the sail and as a result you need to push your boom higher to control it. your wide hand stance is because of too much back hand power in the rig. again a result of not enough downhaul but mainly from not enough outhaul.
it's best to think of the position of the draft when you rig your sail. rig the sail with the correct mast to the dimensions written on the sail. then walk around your rig and study the draft. pick up the tip of the mast and look at the leach, look along the length of the sail and take notice of the draft position. once you get your sail rigged within spec then small changes, like 1cm will make a massive difference. by adjusting downhaul and outhaul you can move the draft around the sail. every person needs to find out for their weight and sail what works best for them. if you are a heavy guy with a high boom you can run your draft higher, lighter guy low boom, draft needs to be lower.
draft position forward and aft is important for apparent wind, forward draft is good off the wind and aft draft is good upwind. you will notice some of the guys at burrum running adjustable outhauls. that is to allow them to tweak between upwind and downwind on the course. plus tune their sail specifically for the wind on the course at a specific time.
the leach of the sail is also important. for off the wind you want a lose leach, one that gives you control in gusts and low drag. upwind tighter leach is good, it give you more grunt upwind.
with speed sailing it is usual to pull on the downhaul to get the draft low for control and driving forward, and to open up the head to reduce drag. then run a negative outhaul setting so the draft moves forward and gives good apparent wind performance off the wind. this will depend on sail type/design of course. slalom sailing or square speed course sailing rig with neutral to +1cm outhaul. of course this is sail dependant.
some speed guys experiment with softer tip masts but i wouldn't go there at this point.
my attitude has always been to rig for planning conditions. not rig for the lulls. it means pumping to get on the plane but it will also mean you can sail for longer and in more control and faster.
what is key, is to rig up and go for a sail. do 1-2 runs back and forth. then come in and tune your sail.
look at batten tension as well. it varies per sail design but in general go tight for the lower battens and loose for the upper battens. use spacers on cams if the luff is loose. you want a sail with a deep, forward and low locked in draft. if the draft is going higher than the batten above the boom then you need more downhaul.
fins make a massive difference. massive for any type of sailing. but for speed sailing it cannot be understated. to cut to the chase, buy the fin that was tested on the board you are sailing when it was designed. at first slalom fins are more than good enough but for places like burrum when the wind is up then speed fins are needed.
sailing off the wind on flat water you can use a smaller fin. in fact you most times should. if the water is bumpy then a bigger fin is going to help out.
typically for speed sailing you want stiffer fins. carbon etc. for bumpy stuff you want fins that can flex a little more. g10 is not bad. look at the tip of the fin. a wide thick tip with perform better off the mark and out of gybes, a thinner tip will have less drag and a higher top end. but again I'm simplifying things and it depends on the overall design.
you should size your fin based on a few things. board tail width, board tail lift/rocker, your weight, footstrap positions, sail size used, water conditions. joe blog running a 38cm fin on his starboard with an 8m sail most likely isn't going to work for you if your board is a narrower design and your a lightweight.
you need to work out what gives you the best control for the given conditions. ultimately speed sailing is all about control. you cannot go fast if the board is tail walking or the rig is unbalanced.
with your gear try to buy a quiver of sails rather than different brand sails in different sizes. firstly it means using the right mast for the sail is cheaper but it also means you get to learn the sails and the sizing gaps are correct. constantly chopping and changing gear is a bad thing to your progress because you lose your benchmarks.
the other thing is you need to find flat water. shearwater isn't going to help you tweak things. sure you need to sail a mix of conditions to get your skills up but flat water allows you to work on stance and tuning outcomes for speed sailing. it's also one of the best places to get your gybed firing. then take what you figured out into rough stuff or open ocean.
other than burrum heads the bank at wello is good for speed sailing. the train doesn't get the wind and it's too short. wello bank in a Nor-Easter, Easterly, Westerly, or Sou-Westerly is a pretty good spot.
one thing I'd say to all of the goldy guys is come check out wello in winter..
Gester deleted these posts but I still have them...
Ha Ha
so do i mate, took me ages to type it so i put it in a word doc and was about to pm macro direct.
i removed them because to be honest, what's the point posting it here.
You Pole Dancers have nothing better to do than argue with each other. You should all start kiting its extreme!!!
macro gtx have very fine divide between just enough downhaul & not enough, about another cm would be good from your pics. Problem is they feel fine either way but tow you'll start to notice a bit of instability which probably cause you to widen hands.
Your front hand too far forward, choking power of sail, trim your downhaul then balance lines on or just in front of coe then take front hand back towards front of lines. You'll notice more power & you'll change your sheeting angle. If just getting going you'll probably hold sail very upright but once going sail will naturally shift to the angle it wants. Not all sails are the same in where they want to sit in the wind both in angle & rake. Light fingers & let it tell you then capitalise in that.
As someone else said ideal is shoulder width apart. Waist harness fine just gotta focus on thinking tight tummy, cant slouch in them. You said about your home spot gives you wide hands- personal thing but i prefer to drop back hand back & sheet in or oversheet a touch to take hand forward too much as if take hand forward if you pull on front hand = you sheet out, drops pressure on nose & disturbs flow on fin. Hands & hips gotta be mobile, if you keep them in 1 spot for all points of sail, or all winds or all water states then you'll be slower than the top guys. Guys that use very wide hand position tend to gorilla in. Dunky uses slightly wider hands for a few reasons & isnt an easy choice of sailor to copy.
Dont compare pic to much either, it isnt video, it is one moment in time so hard to say you may have hit gust or lull etc.
37.5 fin fine for 8m at burrum.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
so do i mate, took me ages to type it so i put it in a word doc and was about to pm macro direct.
i removed them because to be honest, what's the point posting it here.
Dude, SB is where we all get to give our most informed advice.
I want a new keyboard too!!!
remo the only gap you know about closing is between you & your boyfriend. Bit hard to close 30ft of gap on that kite aint it. & swat's expendature is due to the obscene number of masts you guys break, maybe if you went back to the fibreglass noodle it'd last longer.
How is it you even break masts when you never sail?
