Select to expand quoteBouke-Witchcraft said..Gestalt said..
concrete is high in durability and it is one of the least eco friendly building materials around.
eco means sustainable. nothing in bourkes boards is sustainable. eco also talks to low footprint life cycle. nothing in bourkes boards has a low footprint. eco also refers to biodegradable. nothing in bourkes boards is biodegradable.
20 years is nothing. how many windsurfer one designs went into land fill around the world and they are bullet proof.
in the context of a board eco friendly can also be defined as below.
A measurably reduced carbon footprint
Renewable, recycled and/or up-cycled material inputs
Uses materials and processes that reduce toxicity during manufacturing
none of the above points can be applied to witchcraft boards. it's pretty poor form to throw stones at other manufacturers on this topic when those other manufacturers are much further down the road of producing iso and eco rated equipment
I agree with you that boards are not environmentally friendly. But so is nearly everything we do. I also do not call it that, I think it is misleading. That is why I say they are the least damaging for the environment. Which at the moment simply is the best we can do without going back to the stone age. Windmills and solar panels still have to be made and transported as well. An airplane made from carbon fibre is more fuel economic than one made of aluminium, so what is better then? And ships are by far the worst. I have seen designs of freight ships using wind power that would do a lot more than the whole windsurf industry together. But that should not stop the industry from doing their part. The tree planting thing is just marketing in my opinion. Off course planting trees is good. But it will be added on the price. What if someone wants to save that money to invest in solarpanels? Or planting his own trees for that matter?
Even you are still using recycled EPS and many other non sustainable stuff, including the transport to get these materials. So if your board lasts as long as a "normal" production board from say Cobra (where 90% of windsurf boards are made?) and is of the same weight, you are only allowed to use 25% non sustainable material compared to a board that lasts 4 times as long as a normal production board. Can you do that? I doubt that very much. And if you cant you are the one that should not throw stones. And certainly not till you have actually PROVEN you can do it. I am pretty sure that with todays available "ECO" materials, if it is the same weight, it will not last by far as long as even a normal board. Or if it does it will be a LOT heavier. Even if you personally would accept that weight penalty, it would be unsellable unless the competition (is forced to) does the same and it may stop many people going windsurfing at all. In the end maybe that is where we will have to end up any way to "save the planet" or better said: save humanity. But that is something we will have to do collectively. Some will have to lead for sure but those will have to make sure others will follow. That is why I was saying such a rule for the PWA would be good to start with. Customers can push brands to follow. If Starboard really thinks it is better and performance and durability is the same, why still offer normal made boards? Now for sure that is +90% of their business. And the "ECO" offering is marketing.
The same for these "ECO" labels for surfboards. I had a look into that a while ago. As long as a part of such boards is still made with non-sustainable materials, longevity should be taken into account. And they dont. If you use an X% of "BIO" materials, you get the label, if it falls apart many times faster or not. So it is marketing. At the moment I have a 9 foot long board in for a small repair which is 23 years old, weighs 5.3kgs and shows no sign of fatigue.
but your boards are not the least damaging to the environment. if they are then go and get your boards and business certified. i have no issue being wrong, eating my words. it should be easy for you based on everything you've said. there are sustainable iso standards, there is the ecoboard standard. go for it. show me the money as they say.
why continue to sledge starboard, they have certifications and ecoboard standards that you don't have. if you look you will see in general that their boards include sustainable materials. the eco offering as you put is is their standard offering.. their carbon boards are limited run order only with a 4 month lead time.
you've pretty much hijacked the thread. making out like your boards are the most eco, the best built. you've shown you care nothing for the environment and are interested only in pushing your brand above all others. like i said. show me the proof. otherwise it's all bull****. go get yourself certified... other than that i'm not gonna bother responding to you beyond this. i'll keep building the board this thread is about which will be able to be certified. unlike any of your boards.
Select to expand quoteolskool said..
Gestalt, yes its great to build ECO. Surely LONGEVITY must also be considered in the equation.
Great also to be aware of ones carbon footprint.
But I'm sure there are BETTER more beneficial/productive ways to reduce carbon footprint.
Quit being a consumer to major companies business models. There is so much guff that we are all told we MUST have to survive. But ya don't really.
Wanna really reduce the carbon footprint of day to day life?
LIVE OFF GRID. 
So many carbon savings to be made on ALL levels...
Seriously... Stop n think about the entire equation.
hey i'm all for longevity.
yes longevity is considered in the equation. the longevity of the product use, but also the end of life (waste). Longevity also includes the longevity of the raw materials (sustainability) and the longevity of the people building the boards. (non toxic)
no matter how great the boards construction is it will end up in landfill and the design will be outdated and left behind.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
no matter how great the boards construction is it will end up in landfill and the design will be outdated and left behind.
Do you know once a long time ago I would have agreed with this. That was until Josh Angulo won Cabo Verde on a very outdated board design and looked incredible doing it, and he continued to use those same boards for years to come. In an interview he said this type of board suited him so why would he change to something modern that didn't suit him quite as well?
Mr Robby Naish in his recent interview on Windsurf.tv said "I would prefer to be on single fin boards... but I can ride anything..."
I get the impression fashion and marketing are the main drivers to buying new boards, certainly as much as fatigue and improvements in design.
I am not saying that boards haven't improved, more that if gods like Naish and Angulo would choose to stick with what they know, why oh why should us mere mortals and weekend warriors not embrace longevity too.
In surfing you see guys on 50+ year old boards cruising happily and not worrying if the board is the latest trend or not.
I still periodically use 15+ year old boards when the conditions suit. I still have a whale of a time on the old boards and they are still tough as old boots. And that is because Bouke invested in quality materials with low incidence of fatigue. There are lighter boards, there are cheaper boards, but Bouke has found a way of using materials that few people have invested the time to figure out properly, and it works.
I repair boards locally for friends who have posh and sexy new boards. They are in my shed every few sessions for a ding, crease or soft deck repairs. I patch them up and send them on their way, but those boards are less than a season old and already knackered.
I had a Starboard Carbon Reflex in twice in two weeks from a very good local sailor. He is into push loops and forwards etc. It had a 2mm deck sandwich and the carbon stops very abruptly either side of the mast track, which it where the deck keeps going soft and breaking. The board is seriously the lightest I have ever seen, 5.3 kgs including wet straps. But this poor chap's frightened to use the board as every time he does he owes me more beer!
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
but your boards are not the least damaging to the environment. if they are then go and get your boards and business certified. i have no issue being wrong, eating my words. it should be easy for you based on everything you've said. there are sustainable iso standards, there is the ecoboard standard. go for it. show me the money as they say.
why continue to sledge starboard, they have certifications and ecoboard standards that you don't have. if you look you will see in general that their boards include sustainable materials. the eco offering as you put is is their standard offering.. their carbon boards are limited run order only with a 4 month lead time.
you've pretty much hijacked the thread. making out like your boards are the most eco, the best built. you've shown you care nothing for the environment and are interested only in pushing your brand above all others. like i said. show me the proof. otherwise it's all bull****. go get yourself certified... other than that i'm not gonna bother responding to you beyond this. i'll keep building the board this thread is about which will be able to be certified. unlike any of your boards.
Is having a certification, which does not look at longevity, any proof? IIRC, to get a certification, I would just need to use a "BIO" resin that just has 30% plant based resin. I use about 1-1.2kg resin per board of a 6.5kg board. So the "BIO" part would still only be like 5% of the entire board. That alone is enough to get a certificate? Which can?t be recycled again anyway as it is mixed in. Everything else can remain oil based. But that little bit would cause a board to last half as long. A board is as strong as its weakest component. For me just looking at the mechanical properties tells me it is a no-go so far. So what good is such a certification for apart from marketing? And sell more boards as they last less long?
And you are completely wrong, I am all for anything that is actually better for the environment. But with all evidence (mechanical properties) there is, the current "BIO" materials are not yet capable to do that and are actually worse for the environment, unless perhaps being used for non high performance parts. And if so, it is marketing BS and you are falling for it big time. Even Seabase, who are selling "BIO" resins themselves, are saying that on their website. I will keep an eye on the developments in that field and see what they come up with. If they manage to find a way to recycle complex composite structures would also be a very good development. I mean look at the airplane graveyards in the US. Perhaps just one A380 carbon airplane there has more carbon than all windsurf boards together. So such recycling would be really good.
Besides that, I dont know if you picked it up but I was actually giving you advice. I gave some hints how to make it better and you could also see that I said, that i do not think it will work as well as you hope, as advice. I can see that such a thing is disappointing but hey dont shoot the messenger. Maybe it will lead you to figure out how to do it better.
Ah, from a business POV, personally I love Cobra or Starboard. Hypothetically speaking: For any market, if there is just one factory who has pretty much a monopoly position and as such can dictate pricing world wide, would this not be great for any competition, how small they may be, as they can easily compete with the inflated pricing? And bad for those dependend on that one factory and their customers? If a brand, without their own production facility only has one factory who can produce their goods to choose from, is that a good position to be in? And if there is an alternative coming up, it will be bought before it really becomes a threat to the monopoly position. In some markets, big fines have been handed out to companies for such behaviour.
Maybe even their distribution system is dictated for them, denying them of selling direct to lower pricing for example. Easy to check in which market that is happening. You would think, but if the manufacturer is being paid, what do they care what happens with the products afterwards? Even if they would give these products away? But it becomes a different story if that manufacturer also has their own brand and as such has a vested interest to keep prices up to protect their own brand. And it would it not be easy to control the dependend brands? What they get, which quality, when, how much and against which price? Is that not a really bad situation for a market?
And if you were an end user and suffering under this pricing, would that not p!ss you off off and would you certainly not defend this factory nor their brand? Now if the competition are too small and could never serve the whole market so many of the end users will simply have to swallow this pricing. But it is possible they will still be aware of their image so public opinion could still make a bit of an influence. And, when one of these competing small factories is trying to get the public to be aware of this situation, would this not actually be against their own business interest? Capiche?
Reminds me, of what constitutes organic .
their is probably a manufacture ,designer, lay up structural person, on here. Bouke, has contributed, a lot, for esp a little company , in a little country, endured some setbacks.
the former BOARDS UK, forum set the ten standard.
@Gestalt, I get that building your own board/experimenting in the ECO/BIO regime is interesting n should be looked into.
But its a bit of a Toss really.
Adjusting your day to day consumerism is far easier n a way more beneficial method to help the planet.
If you only get a few seasons from the Eco/Bio materials before the board crumples n breaks or degrades then you're actually ADDING to what you try to remove yourself from. Consuming materials wastefully.
To be part of the GREEN TEAM you've really gotta look at the big score.
Living Offgrid growing your own food etc can reduce your Carbon footprint 10fold easily.
Then you won't have to feel guilty about buying or making a quality construction board which can last decades.
Longevity n Economics as well as Materials used must be part of the equation.
Just saying.....
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
you have really cherry picked. prior to that he says that manufacturers using single use plastic should be banned from events. he also says that 10x carbon neutral is his ambition.
AH, I forgot to mention 20x carbon neutral is my ambition......
Select to expand quoteOverner said..Gestalt said..
no matter how great the boards construction is it will end up in landfill and the design will be outdated and left behind.
Do you know once a long time ago I would have agreed with this. That was until Josh Angulo won Cabo Verde on a very outdated board design and looked incredible doing it, and he continued to use those same boards for years to come. In an interview he said this type of board suited him so why would he change to something modern that didn't suit him quite as well?
Mr Robby Naish in his recent interview on Windsurf.tv said "I would prefer to be on single fin boards... but I can ride anything..."
I get the impression fashion and marketing are the main drivers to buying new boards, certainly as much as fatigue and improvements in design.
I am not saying that boards haven't improved, more that if gods like Naish and Angulo would choose to stick with what they know, why oh why should us mere mortals and weekend warriors not embrace longevity too.
In surfing you see guys on 50+ year old boards cruising happily and not worrying if the board is the latest trend or not.
I still periodically use 15+ year old boards when the conditions suit. I still have a whale of a time on the old boards and they are still tough as old boots. And that is because Bouke invested in quality materials with low incidence of fatigue. There are lighter boards, there are cheaper boards, but Bouke has found a way of using materials that few people have invested the time to figure out properly, and it works.
I repair boards locally for friends who have posh and sexy new boards. They are in my shed every few sessions for a ding, crease or soft deck repairs. I patch them up and send them on their way, but those boards are less than a season old and already knackered.
I had a Starboard Carbon Reflex in twice in two weeks from a very good local sailor. He is into push loops and forwards etc. It had a 2mm deck sandwich and the carbon stops very abruptly either side of the mast track, which it where the deck keeps going soft and breaking. The board is seriously the lightest I have ever seen, 5.3 kgs including wet straps. But this poor chap's frightened to use the board as every time he does he owes me more beer!
so you guys spend pages telling me that longevity is the only way, that bourkes dyneema boards are the best answer and that standard materials less harmful to the environment can't stand up
then you cite examples of longevity of boards built from materials we've had for 60 years and don't include bourkes construction and are 10 times better for the environment because they don't include bourkes construction.. lol, that's gold.
funny as it reminds me of an exact conversation i had at burford blanks as they pointed to the 50 year old logs on the wall.
Select to expand quoteOverner said..Gestalt said..
no matter how great the boards construction is it will end up in landfill and the design will be outdated and left behind.
Do you know once a long time ago I would have agreed with this. That was until Josh Angulo won Cabo Verde on a very outdated board design and looked incredible doing it, and he continued to use those same boards for years to come. In an interview he said this type of board suited him so why would he change to something modern that didn't suit him quite as well?
Mr Robby Naish in his recent interview on Windsurf.tv said "I would prefer to be on single fin boards... but I can ride anything..."
I get the impression fashion and marketing are the main drivers to buying new boards, certainly as much as fatigue and improvements in design.
I am not saying that boards haven't improved, more that if gods like Naish and Angulo would choose to stick with what they know, why oh why should us mere mortals and weekend warriors not embrace longevity too.
In surfing you see guys on 50+ year old boards cruising happily and not worrying if the board is the latest trend or not.
I still periodically use 15+ year old boards when the conditions suit. I still have a whale of a time on the old boards and they are still tough as old boots. And that is because Bouke invested in quality materials with low incidence of fatigue. There are lighter boards, there are cheaper boards, but Bouke has found a way of using materials that few people have invested the time to figure out properly, and it works.
I repair boards locally for friends who have posh and sexy new boards. They are in my shed every few sessions for a ding, crease or soft deck repairs. I patch them up and send them on their way, but those boards are less than a season old and already knackered.
I had a Starboard Carbon Reflex in twice in two weeks from a very good local sailor. He is into push loops and forwards etc. It had a 2mm deck sandwich and the carbon stops very abruptly either side of the mast track, which it where the deck keeps going soft and breaking. The board is seriously the lightest I have ever seen, 5.3 kgs including wet straps. But this poor chap's frightened to use the board as every time he does he owes me more beer!
He has always been in favor of single Fins, US1111.he was reluctant to go the trendy multi fin fin craze of 10 years ago.
but he did.
now what's that got to do, if anything that tiny fins save the environment?
well done sonntag fins which are now using bioresin. here is what they have said.
wanted to look into a more sustainable epoxy resin system for the new carbon fiber fin. Sicomin's GreenPoxy? 33 resin was the answer. Testing proved this, as the GreenPoxy? 33 test samples allowed for a less brittle fin, making it stronger should it run into a rock.
Joerg Sonntag, MD, of Sonntag Fins said, "We produce high-performance windsurfing fins that need to accommodate significant loads during sailing. Fins need to combine flexibility with extremely high torsion stiffness that places high interlaminar shear forces on the resin, especially in our softer fins. A key requirement for us is a resin that maintains its mechanical properties for many years, and this is where the Sicomin systems deliver."
similar findings to the company developing composite rear wings for aston martin racing using bioresin and flax.
they said.
compared to carbon fibres, flax materials are renewable, lower in cost to produce, are CO2 neutral and have excellent vibration damping properties. In addition, bio-epoxy resins based on cashew nut shell liquids (CNSL) offer enhanced toughness, noise damping and further sustainability benefits over synthetic epoxies. By creating a hybrid structure using the flax and bio-epoxy to replace some of the carbon fibres, enhanced properties such as lower weight, cost, NVH and environmental impact can be gained. A 50/50 carbon and flax fibre hybrid biocomposite has been made from Biotex Flax supplied by Composites Evolution and prepregged by SHD Composite Materials. It shows equal bending stiffness to carbon fibre while providing a 15% cost saving, 7% weight reduction and 58% more vibration damping.
it was also suggested earlier that composite fabrics are no good and offer no structural qualities. the article goes on to say.
These fabrics are particularly suitable for use in one or two layer laminates and where directional properties are required.One example in the Biotex range is a 180g/m2 twill hybrid fabric that is aimed to suit complex structural and decorative parts. Hybrid carbon flax spread tow fabrics are also possible, offering superior properties due to the high degree of fibre alignment and low crimp.
I looked further into this as someone from europe had pm'd me. i didn't keep the reference so am trying to find it again but the study i read found that flax UD cloth was the best choice as it is the strongest weave. From what i can work out you are best with weights above 200grams - Eco-Technilin in france may be worth contacting for expert advice i can't find a huge amount of experience with it in australia in windsurfers.
Well done Duotone
Duotone has partnered with Waste2Wear to make all sail bags out of 100% recycled PET nylon. The base for this material are "fished" plastic bottles from Chinese fishermen.
An average size sail bag is made from 35 bottles.
i also notice something about being carbon neutral... that's very cool.
I am the proud, but slightly frustrated owner of at least a dozen old windsurfing boards that are still in great condition, are still perfectly usable, but have been superseded by better designs (some a LOT better, some only slight better, but enough to make the difference that I never use them - except maybe once in a blue moon for nostalgic reasons). So these dozen + boards clog up my shed and take up space which I really don't like. That does not include the other 8 or so boards which have high historical or sentimental value - mostly old polyester speed boards which I call my 'Museum'. or the old Race Roard, Formula, Go and a couple of tandems, between 35 and 10 years old, which DO get used a few times a year.
I think I have only one single board in there that is actually in bad enough state of disrepair that I could not use it, but it was such a favourite bump and jump (self built polyester) board that I harbour desires to rebuild/repair it some day.
I honestly can't remember EVER dumping a board in the Tip, but I have sold dozens in the early years when the designs were progressing very quickly. Hell, in the '80's I sold 40-50 new rotomoulded longboards in just few years in my small country town. I have not seen any of those boards for 30 years, so they are either all in Landfll now, or still hanging forlornly in garages all over town!
My point is, I have all these quite good, serviceable boards, which I will almost certainly never use again, that I can't really sell or even give away (I have tried with a few. 
), and they are most likely destined to end up in the Tip anyhow, even if I could sell them for a song or give them away.
And I still have people around town bringing me serviceable old boards and asking me if I would like to have them, or know some kid they could give them to! Sorry - no.
@ Gestalt
I hear your frustration. I empathise. I truly do. I've tried to find an alternative I am happy with, and failed.
if you develop something better, get it patented and charge the rest of us a fee to use the tech.
Trying to compare a surf log (longboard) from the 1950's with a modern performance windsurf board is nonsense. The expectation of the board is vastly different.
Fact remains those boards haven't made it to landfill and are still providing pleasure. That should be celebrated. I just hope their workers didn't die of emphysema, or have significant impacts on their cognition because of the toxic fumes.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Well done Duotone
Duotone has partnered with Waste2Wear to make all sail bags out of 100% recycled PET nylon. The base for this material are "fished" plastic bottles from Chinese fishermen.
An average size sail bag is made from 35 bottles.
i also notice something about being carbon neutral... that's very cool.
And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail? If they really wanted to do something for the environment they should improve that as well. But mostly they will be looking to save weight. We repair sails and a well reputed sailmaker from the UK also gives me info on the sails he gets to repair from all over the UK. There is a big brand that to save weight do not reinforce the leach on their wavesails, causing a lot of them to fail on the same spot when the rest of the sail would still have quite a bit of life left in it. Even when not used in waves, the sail breaks because of leach flutter. Still this is one of the most sold brands at the moment.
Select to expand quoteBouke-Witchcraft said..Gestalt said..
Well done Duotone
Duotone has partnered with Waste2Wear to make all sail bags out of 100% recycled PET nylon. The base for this material are "fished" plastic bottles from Chinese fishermen.
An average size sail bag is made from 35 bottles.
i also notice something about being carbon neutral... that's very cool.
And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail? If they really wanted to do something for the environment they should improve that as well. But mostly they will be looking to save weight. We repair sails and a well reputed sailmaker from the UK also gives me info on the sails he gets to repair from all over the UK. There is a big brand that to save weight do not reinforce the leach on their wavesails, causing a lot of them to fail on the same spot when the rest of the sail would still have quite a bit of life left in it. Even when not used in waves, the sail breaks because of leach flutter. Still this is one of the most sold brands at the moment.Select to expand quoteBouke-Witchcraft said..Gestalt said..
Well done Duotone
Duotone has partnered with Waste2Wear to make all sail bags out of 100% recycled PET nylon. The base for this material are "fished" plastic bottles from Chinese fishermen.
An average size sail bag is made from 35 bottles.
i also notice something about being carbon neutral... that's very cool.
And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail? If they really wanted to do something for the environment they should improve that as well. But mostly they will be looking to save weight. We repair sails and a well reputed sailmaker from the UK also gives me info on the sails he gets to repair from all over the UK. There is a big brand that to save weight do not reinforce the leach on their wavesails, causing a lot of them to fail on the same spot when the rest of the sail would still have quite a bit of life left in it. Even when not used in waves, the sail breaks because of leach flutter. Still this is one of the most sold brands at the moment.
NP ? , I like and use them , but they seem more fragile than any other brand I've used . Cams , batten tips and batten clamps seem to let go regularly. I've even broken second from top batten in the middle , how does that happen ?
Ezzy seem thick and strong compared. For sail buffness I'd go Ezzy.
Mild shore dump can trash a NP, Ive seen it happen first hand. And that was bay swell not real surf.
Select to expand quoteBouke-Witchcraft said..Gestalt said..
Well done Duotone
And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail?
$50 bet says that if I bought a Duotone sail tomorrow with an "eco" bag I'd unroll the sail and find 6m2 of plastic film and 6m2 of foamy plastic stuff wrapped around the sail.
I'd then collect all this up as it blows around the rigging spot and put it in the nearest bin, never ever to wrap the sail up ever again using this padding.
Why do new sails need this plastic rubbish ? Who ever re-uses it to roll a sail up ? What is the point other than re-assuring you that the sail is new ?
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..Bouke-Witchcraft said..Gestalt said..
Well done Duotone
And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail?
$50 bet says that if I bought a Duotone sail tomorrow with an "eco" bag I'd unroll the sail and find 6m2 of plastic film and 6m2 of foamy plastic stuff wrapped around the sail.
I'd then collect all this up as it blows around the rigging spot and put it in the nearest bin, never ever to wrap the sail up ever again using this padding.
Why do new sails need this plastic rubbish ? Who ever re-uses it to roll a sail up ? What is the point other than re-assuring you that the sail is new ?
It's the new car smell thing .
Whoever has rigged up a new sail indoors knows , it's a beautiful toxic smell that lets you know it's a new sail.
If they could bottle that smell , and my wife would use it , I'm sure I won't be too tired ., but then I'm stranger than most 
Select to expand quoteBouke-Witchcraft said..Gestalt said..
Well done Duotone
Duotone has partnered with Waste2Wear to make all sail bags out of 100% recycled PET nylon. The base for this material are "fished" plastic bottles from Chinese fishermen.
An average size sail bag is made from 35 bottles.
i also notice something about being carbon neutral... that's very cool.
And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail? If they really wanted to do something for the environment they should improve that as well. But mostly they will be looking to save weight. We repair sails and a well reputed sailmaker from the UK also gives me info on the sails he gets to repair from all over the UK. There is a big brand that to save weight do not reinforce the leach on their wavesails, causing a lot of them to fail on the same spot when the rest of the sail would still have quite a bit of life left in it. Even when not used in waves, the sail breaks because of leach flutter. Still this is one of the most sold brands at the moment.
**** me you are like the donald trump of windsurfing. how self serving can one be.
Select to expand quoteOverner said..
@ Gestalt
I hear your frustration. I empathise. I truly do. I've tried to find an alternative I am happy with, and failed.
if you develop something better, get it patented and charge the rest of us a fee to use the tech.
Trying to compare a surf log (longboard) from the 1950's with a modern performance windsurf board is nonsense. The expectation of the board is vastly different.
Fact remains those boards haven't made it to landfill and are still providing pleasure. That should be celebrated. I just hope their workers didn't die of emphysema, or have significant impacts on their cognition because of the toxic fumes.
i appreciate the empathy but not sure if you picked up i'm not doubting if it can be done. you and donald not being able to do it isn't slowing me down.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..Bouke-Witchcraft said..Gestalt said..
Well done Duotone
And how long do their sails last? It is a start but a sailbag is like 5% in material of the whole sail?
$50 bet says that if I bought a Duotone sail tomorrow with an "eco" bag I'd unroll the sail and find 6m2 of plastic film and 6m2 of foamy plastic stuff wrapped around the sail.
I'd then collect all this up as it blows around the rigging spot and put it in the nearest bin, never ever to wrap the sail up ever again using this padding.
Why do new sails need this plastic rubbish ? Who ever re-uses it to roll a sail up ? What is the point other than re-assuring you that the sail is new ?
the good news is someone actually did something positive in reducing waste. sure they can do more but at least they took the first step.
i do like the wrap as it stops new sails from getting scratches in transport but no doubt they could use recycled tissue paper for the same outcome. maybe they do. i don't know.
Select to expand quotesailquik said..
I am the proud, but slightly frustrated owner of at least a dozen old windsurfing boards that are still in great condition, are still perfectly usable, but have been superseded by better designs (some a LOT better, some only slight better, but enough to make the difference that I never use them - except maybe once in a blue moon for nostalgic reasons). So these dozen + boards clog up my shed and take up space which I really don't like. That does not include the other 8 or so boards which have high historical or sentimental value - mostly old polyester speed boards which I call my 'Museum'. or the old Race Roard, Formula, Go and a couple of tandems, between 35 and 10 years old, which DO get used a few times a year.
I think I have only one single board in there that is actually in bad enough state of disrepair that I could not use it, but it was such a favourite bump and jump (self built polyester) board that I harbour desires to rebuild/repair it some day.
I honestly can't remember EVER dumping a board in the Tip, but I have sold dozens in the early years when the designs were progressing very quickly. Hell, in the '80's I sold 40-50 new rotomoulded longboards in just few years in my small country town. I have not seen any of those boards for 30 years, so they are either all in Landfll now, or still hanging forlornly in garages all over town!
My point is, I have all these quite good, serviceable boards, which I will almost certainly never use again, that I can't really sell or even give away (I have tried with a few. ), and they are most likely destined to end up in the Tip anyhow, even if I could sell them for a song or give them away.
And I still have people around town bringing me serviceable old boards and asking me if I would like to have them, or know some kid they could give them to! Sorry - no.
every time i go to the tip have a look at the pile of windsurf gear. nothing really worth taking home but a couple of the local guys have picked up a board for a few months then sent it back to be buried.
The point that Bouke makes is the recycling of material in a sail BAG is next to nothing. Oh, it makes good advertising have any of you seen, a Witchcraft sail ? My standard is Ezzy *judge against them. It's awesome.
a rather pricy carbon extension that if I needed I would still purchase.
* In so many ways , built tough, perform brilliant, range huge, re sale is the best cause of these,value the best.
several of you have made claims , statements that ten % of this that or the other statistics, your blowing in the wind.
Just talk.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..sailquik said..
I am the proud, but slightly frustrated owner of at least a dozen old windsurfing boards that are still in great condition, are still perfectly usable, but have been superseded by better designs (some a LOT better, some only slight better, but enough to make the difference that I never use them - except maybe once in a blue moon for nostalgic reasons). So these dozen + boards clog up my shed and take up space which I really don't like. That does not include the other 8 or so boards which have high historical or sentimental value - mostly old polyester speed boards which I call my 'Museum'. or the old Race Roard, Formula, Go and a couple of tandems, between 35 and 10 years old, which DO get used a few times a year.
I think I have only one single board in there that is actually in bad enough state of disrepair that I could not use it, but it was such a favourite bump and jump (self built polyester) board that I harbour desires to rebuild/repair it some day.
I honestly can't remember EVER dumping a board in the Tip, but I have sold dozens in the early years when the designs were progressing very quickly. Hell, in the '80's I sold 40-50 new rotomoulded longboards in just few years in my small country town. I have not seen any of those boards for 30 years, so they are either all in Landfll now, or still hanging forlornly in garages all over town!
My point is, I have all these quite good, serviceable boards, which I will almost certainly never use again, that I can't really sell or even give away (I have tried with a few. ), and they are most likely destined to end up in the Tip anyhow, even if I could sell them for a song or give them away.
And I still have people around town bringing me serviceable old boards and asking me if I would like to have them, or know some kid they could give them to! Sorry - no.
every time i go to the tip have a look at the pile of windsurf gear. nothing really worth taking home but a couple of the local guys have picked up a board for a few months then sent it back to be buried.
I removed the mast track, the footstraps inserts on at least 3 boards, they got re used. the brick buildings add far more pollution that a said to be ECOfriendly paint like epoxy.
www.bcomp.ch/
These guys do flax and hybrid flax carbon tapes. I have used it for the rails on a SUP. I used some of their ski cores to make panels for a hollow wood SUP as well.
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
www.bcomp.ch/
These guys do flax and hybrid flax carbon tapes. I have used it for the rails on a SUP. I used some of their ski cores to make panels for a hollow wood SUP as well.
They dont put the properties on the website. Just the carbon footprint vs 1kg of fibre. Which says flax fibre still has a carbon footprint, just per kg a lot less. But if you would need a lot more fibre to get the same performance, that would really twist the equation. I have sent them a request for more info.
When I did, research, I found that some, opinions, were less carbon. I see that s glass , is being used more.
it's stronger, absorbing less . Of course it cost more.
Select to expand quote@Gestalt
i appreciate the empathy but not sure if you picked up i'm not doubting if it can be done. you and donald not being able to do it isn't slowing me down.
Matey, don't let me stop you. If you find a way shout to the hills! I will be following in your shadow.
I have worked with composite evolutions before. They have woven me bespoke 100gsm twill flax. Laminated well but needed glass over the top as you cannot sand flax. Flax is stiffer than glass but not as impact resistant or as good mechanically. And 5 times the price. Needed vacuuming down.
I have read peer reviewed papers in reputable journals outlining that if you look at the energy used to get glass and flax market ready, glass has a lower footprint. I liked working with flax. It is just too expensive for its mechanical properties, especially as there are alternatives like basalt. IMHO.
