That seems to be the common theme, rig it till it looks right, but I just don't get out enough to be able to equate what the sail looks like on the beach with how it's feeling on the water.
And because I don't sail as much as I want to, the last thing I feel like doing is braving the shore break to tweak the settings by 5mm for a change that may or may not be better, or given the other 200 variables, noticeable!
So I'll always be a "numbers" guy, and I'm ok with that.
Select to expand quoteMJP68 said..
That seems to be the common theme, rig it till it looks right, but I just don't get out enough to be able to equate what the sail looks like on the beach with how it's feeling on the water.
And because I don't sail as much as I want to, the last thing I feel like doing is braving the shore break to tweak the settings by 5mm for a change that may or may not be better, or given the other 200 variables, noticeable!
So I'll always be a "numbers" guy, and I'm ok with that.
MJP don't let this stuff worry you. Most sails are designed with a set and forget downhaul and it's the outhaul that gets tweaked as needed or if the wind increases or decreases. this is because it's easy to tweak outhaul on the water, on the beach, where ever. for this reason it's typical to set the downhaul slightly positive and forget it.
personally was told this by Ben Severne, it's written in the simmer rigging guide, Goya make the same suggestions etc etc.. the point of this thread is to bring awareness to this stuff.I'm not saying don't back off downhaul in lighter winds or give it some extra in stronger winds but those choices are very obvious and get made when first rigging. Outhaul is generally about more subtle tweaks.
the "I do it by eye crew" have to do it by eye because they are mixing and matching gear so the numbers don't apply. part of the reason why there are markers on the sails is to allow for manufacturing tolerances which on masts are about 1%
Oh it doesn't worry me! It just annoys me.
If you're gonna produce and sell a product that you're asking the consumer to use a certain way, then give them unambiguous tools to do that.
I still check my setting with a tape measure every time because my memory doesn't let me store those things away. I just wish I didn't have to.
MP
Which bit are you finding ambiguous...
In severne's case there is a number on the sail to set the extension to.
Simmer you take the mast length away from the luff length on the sail and that's your extension setting ..most beands are the same .
Wave sails are rigged in 3-5 minutes.. you do not need a tape measure.
Yep, absolutely understand the first step of setting the extension.
My question is (and always has been): how far do I pull? In other words, where should the sail pulley be in relation to the extension?
MY understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that the lowest part of the sail pulley should be in-line with the arbitrary pont on the extension that is the distance away from the bottom of the mast of the amount of downhaul you're aiming for.
So, as an example, if I'm aiming for a downhaul of 21cm (because that's what's printed on my sail), the bottom of my sail pulley should be 21cm away from the bottom of the mast.
So, what I (and from what I gather from the last thread you linked to, most other people with more than one extension) end up doing is marking that reference point on the extension itself, and just eyeballing the bottom of the sail pulley against that line that I've drawn. If it's windy, I eyeball in an extra cm. If light, I eyeball in a cm less.
So, just to expand my knowledge here, if I had a Severne sail and a matching Severne extension, how do I know exactly when to stop pulling so I have the exact downhaul specified on the sail? Is there a marking on the extension that you're lining up with some point on the sail that tells you "yep, exactly there, I now have exactly 21cm of downhaul"?
I go block to block unless it's says otherwise in the brands rigging instructions..again. I'm using brand specific gear.
I believe point 7, Patrick and simmer extensions are the same. Not sure, need to measure.
Duotone has the top of the plastic collar as the point. Not sure about Goya.
So my extensions are 2cm increments. I typically set extension to suit numbers on sail and pull block to block. if the number is inbetween extension holes I adjust to next 2cm point and don't go block to block.. but honestly. The sails typically allow extensions to be set in 2cm increments. If the wind is a bit patchy or looks to have backed off a little I let of 0.5-1cm downhaul.. done. No need to measure. I do look at the head to see where scallops are as a check. Modern wave sails don't really scallop as much as older designs so heads will look tighter. So its not a real check just makes me feel better.
Then everything is about outhaul. Again I set boom length to numbers if in the middle of the cutout . In lighter winds i set the boom higher so add 2cm to the boom. Then I give full outhaul.
Finally I check the batten position above boom on mast. It should be half way across mast on severne . simmer I can let it out a little more to get more power. Simmer can handle the batten end sticking out further. I adjust if needed.
Finally, i push on the sail in the window to see how it feels. if after a few runs i'm looking for more power i let the outhaul off 1cm. if I'm getting cooked I add 1-2cm or go change down.
Eyeballing is old school. I eyeball my LT setup as there are no numbers . Modern sails are designed to be easy to rig.
Full cam sails I usually go +0.5cm on the dh straight up. I do look more at the scallops and also how the batten above the boom falls away at the leach . Going +0.5 means I can't go block to block. So I eyeball distance between pulleys.
As it turns out I'm doing exactly what bens doing. Including not going full dh on new sails until they are broken in.
Ahhh OK, see that's quite interesting, block to block. I would never have thought that would be the way to go, I've only ever known the "bottom of pulley" method (as per the Maui Sails rigging diagram in the previous thread you linked to).
When you are at block-to-block, are you at that sail's "high wind" setting? Or in Simmer/Severne-land, is there only "normal" (block to block) and "light" (downhaul eased off a bit)?
That information certainly changes how I think about this, so I appreciate your time taken to type that out.
I'll watch that video you linked to in order to try to understand it.
Out of curiosity: if you set your Severne extension at a number "X", then put a tape measure from the top of the collar (i.e. where bottom of mast would be), at what point on your extension would your tape measure read "X"? At the top of the extension's pulley block? Or some place above that? If the latter, is that place marked on the extension somehow?
MP
Just throwing this in the MAST talk ,I have a 430 Severne SDM 90 % Slalom mast ,then I use a neilpryde 34 X -tender ,I use this on my 2025 8,0 Ezzy Lion ,I change 2 of the cams supplied by Ezzy in the kit .I have been testing it lately vs the 460 RDM .ezzy .I think I prefer the severne set up .it seems a little softer and reaction time is quicker .I get a Nicer belly in the sail . Ezzy sails say their sails work with most mast .Which I find true ,but not so good with NP .A little too soft .
But Ezzy say their mast are Hookipa wave mast .
My thoughts ..
are Slalom mast better for slalom sails ,? the wall on the severne mast is defiantly thinner ,does this give a quicker
return to stability after a gust .? I think yes ...I find my 460 Duotone too stiff for my 2025 8,0 Lion .its a completely different sail to the 2018 and 2021 's .defiantly faster and more rigid .The luff Material is super thick .its a more stabile sail vs previous years .and faster .by quite a bit .top end that is
Select to expand quoteMJP68 said..
That seems to be the common theme, rig it till it looks right, but I just don't get out enough to be able to equate what the sail looks like on the beach with how it's feeling on the water.
And because I don't sail as much as I want to, the last thing I feel like doing is braving the shore break to tweak the settings by 5mm for a change that may or may not be better, or given the other 200 variables, noticeable!
So I'll always be a "numbers" guy, and I'm ok with that.
There are some very simple visible clues when rigging a sail.
Eg.
1) for rotational (i.e without cams) sails, apply downhaul until the front of the batten above the boom is parallel with the front of the mast.
2) for cammed sails, apply downhaul until the crease between the 2nd and 3rd batten from the top of the mast is about 80% across the sail towards the mast. Many sail brands have a mark on the sail of this location.
Then go sail and see how it feels. I use the Duotone XT extension. This allows easy adjustment of downhaul on the water. Make small adjustments ( one click up or down) and go sail and check. Using this method, it's surprising how quickly you can find optimum downhaul setting for a given wind condition. Downhaul adjustments for lighter or stronger wind are usually only about +- 1cm from optimum
Once downhaul is set, you can then, as Gestalt suggested, play with small adjustments of outhaul.
Select to expand quoteMJP68 said..
Ahhh OK, see that's quite interesting, block to block. I would never have thought that would be the way to go, I've only ever known the "bottom of pulley" method (as per the Maui Sails rigging diagram in the previous thread you linked to).
When you are at block-to-block, are you at that sail's "high wind" setting? Or in Simmer/Severne-land, is there only "normal" (block to block) and "light" (downhaul eased off a bit)?
That information certainly changes how I think about this, so I appreciate your time taken to type that out.
I'll watch that video you linked to in order to try to understand it.
Out of curiosity: if you set your Severne extension at a number "X", then put a tape measure from the top of the collar (i.e. where bottom of mast would be), at what point on your extension would your tape measure read "X"? At the top of the extension's pulley block? Or some place above that? If the latter, is that place marked on the extension somehow?
MP
When you use the numbers on the sail. Block to block is in the middle of the downhaul range. So let's consider that 0.. the starting point. From there tuning means +/-1cm which is a 2cm range. I rarely set my wave sails with positive downhaul because I am trying to use the smallest gear possible. I would rather rig down then crank downhaul. With wave sails too much downhaul and outhaul makes them twitchy. They need belly. Their leach should not look like a slalom sail. Cambered sails like a bit of positive downhaul.
With the dot or telltale on the sails. every brand is different. Some, the dot is max downhaul, some it's the med setting. Some have no dot, some it's a batten graphic or a logo. how are the rig it until it looks right crew gonna rig my simmer sails. there ain't no dot.
It's typical to see people just crank the downhaul to the dot and beyond regardless of what the designer intended.
With the severne ext.. it honestly does not mater so I've never done it. because the downhaul numbers suit the mast and extension as part of the system. The severne team spend 12 months testing the sail and coming up with those numbers. let me say jaeger and co are far better at this stuff than anyone in this thread. Which is the point, using an out of spec mast and or extension means the numbers don't work anymore..
what I can say is it's easier to go block to block on the simmer than the severne. Severne wave sails have more skin tension than simmer.
severne do the maths for you they write the extension number on the sail. For eg 8cm.so you set the extension tov8cm and move on I also like ezzy's idea of the strings. All of these things are done to make rigging as fast and easy as possible.
The reason I'm keen to measure extensions is so we get an understanding of which extensions measure the same so we can mix and match with knowledge.
Yep fair enough. Should have bought the matching extension to sail but wasn't fully aware that each manufacturer has a different "system" if you will. Sure I'll be able to work around it with some experimentation. At least I'm getting the matching mast/sail combo so I got something right.
It does feel like we've moved to more of an "ecosystem" style of buying gear, I just didn't really notice the change as I wasn't actively buying gear while it happened.
Select to expand quoteMJP68 said..
Yep fair enough. Should have bought the matching extension to sail but wasn't fully aware that each manufacturer has a different "system" if you will. Sure I'll be able to work around it with some experimentation. At least I'm getting the matching mast/sail combo so I got something right.
It does feel like we've moved to more of an "ecosystem" style of buying gear, I just didn't really notice the change as I wasn't actively buying gear while it happened.
They don't really have a different system. It's just some manufactures might specify the downhaul setting(for instance) as amount of extension vs. total mast length - e.g a sail designed for a 430 mast specified downhaul range of 440-442 rather than 10-12cm(430+10/12). As for the block to block measurement, this is also fairly standard & should really be the same as bottom of sail pulley to the bottom of the mast or top of the collar to the top of the pulleys on the extension. These are really the same since thif you downhaul block to block since the bottom of the pulleys on the sail will touch the top of th pulleys on the extension & the top of the collar is where the mast rests. Following these guidelines will get you "in the ballpark" & you can tune from there. that said if you are not using the specified mast for the sail(at least the correct bend curve) then it all goes out the window & you are back to experimenting.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Kato, Knowing you've been measuring masts for 20 or so years. can you share the 1/4 - 3/4 numbers?
No idea. Reach out to Sailquick he'll have the numbers somewhere
Some more bend curve research.
Every brand uses a different bend curve and that can vary depending on size. Some brands make subtle changes from year to year. The numbers below are to help select masts for those wanting to mix and match brands. Remembering that brand specific masts are always the best and optimum choice for your sail both for performance and to enable rigging to the numbers on the sail (this includes mast extension). When mixing and matching the numbers on the sail will also need to be adjusted by the user with experimentation typically required.
For those wanting to mix and match brands, finding the closest 1/4% / 3/4% to suit your sail brand and the classification will hopefully get you closer to a mast that works well in your sail. If we had the 1/2% we could get closer. That said, none of the data below is guaranteed to work with your sail. Mixing and matching comes with risks. When mixing and matching brands, anything is possible. Please also not no reference to mast diameter is listed below. Mast diameter will effect camber rotation of race sails and luff round dimensions on wave sails.
Industry accepted classifications for masts are
0-6: Hard Top - HT
0-9: Hard Top / Constant Curve - CCHT
10-12: Constant Curve - CC
13-15: Constant Curve / Flex Top - CCFT
6-18: Flex Top - FT
To provide clarity around the data below I have included the following codes
Md - Manufacturers data
P - Peterman DK website
R - Raceboard website
A - Anecdotal only, beware.
Powerex 64/76 (12) CC Md
Unifiber 62.5/76 (13.5) CCFT Md
Unifiber fh 64/79 (15) Md
Unifiber fl 62/77 (15) Md
Duotone 61-63/75-77 (14) CCFT depending on length.. sls varies. Md
Goya 340 65/78 (13) CCFT Md
Goya 370&400 64.5/79 (14.5) CCFT Md
Goya 430 64/78 (14) CCFT Md
Goya 460&490 64/77 (13) CCFT Md
Neil Pryde 400 61/78 (17) FT P
Neil Pryde 430 63/77 (14) CCFT P
Neil Pryde 460 62.5/77 (14.5) CCFT P
Neil Pryde 490 63/77 (14) CCFT P
North 400 63/76 (13) CCFT P
North 430&460 63.5/76 (12.5) CC P
North 490 63/79 (16) FT P
North 3di era varies.
S2 Maui 63-65/74-76 (11) CC Md
Ezzy 63/78 (15) CCFT Md
No limitz Original 370&400 64.5/77 (12.5) CCFT Md
No limitz Original 430 64/77 (13) CCFT Md
No limitz Sumo 370 64/78.5 (14.5) CCFT stiffer IMCS Md
No limitz Sumo 400&430 64.5/77 (12.5) CC stiffer IMCS Md
No limitz Sumo 460 64.5/76.5 (12) CC stiffer IMCS Md
Sailworks - same as nolimitz sumo. Md
KA 63/76.5 (13.5) CCFT Md + R
Loft sails 64/76 (12) CC Md
Severne 63.5/74 (10.5) CC P
Patrik 370 63/79 (16) FT A
Patrik 400-460 63/77 (14) CCFT A
Patrik 490 63/75 (12) CC A
Patrik 520 63.5/74 (10.5) CC A
both point 7 and severne use different points to measure their bend curve..
fiberspar 400 62.5/75.5 (13) CCFT P
fiberspar 430 63/76.5 (13.5) CCFT P
fiberspar 460 62/75 (13) CCFT P
