Select to expand quoteFrancone said..
I am picking up from a now closed thread . Just a few thoughts.
Yes, regretfully windsurfing is in full decline. I still keep on, at 78, but I am most of the time the only one on the water..People look at me like an oddity..Yesterday a young mom was walking her kid by the beach and said" Wow, my kid was really impressed with you.." Maybe SHE was impressed because of my age, but the kid had probably never seen a windsurfer before. A sign of the times..
True, all things human wax and wane and windsurfing could not be expected to be the exception...
It was perhaps inevitable that kitesurfing would marginalize and, to an extent, replace windsurfing, at least traditional windsurfing.
I also think, though, that the windsurfing industry has contributed to this, because it has changed its original vocation of a leisurely, affordable, family-oriented, perhaps romantic activity, centered on the enjoyment of nature, into a high-tech,( therefore expensive) speed- and- adrenaline, almost extreme, sport.
Its hyperbole-filled, marketing savvy has succeeded in creating a lucrative venue by catering to a trendy, young population of nimble contortionists and. acrobats, who fearlessly tackle two-storeys high ocean waves or foil 1 m. above the water.
These young windsurfers ( or windsurfers-to-be-) now have come to associate anything other than planing, wave-riding, foiling and speed with. grandpa and..stay away from it.
The lesser revenues for the manufacturers, caused by the dwindling number of traditional windsurfers have in part been compensated by the new windsurfing trend and the high-tech expensive equipment that goes with it.
The profits from a $ 1500 carbon foil on a $ 2000 foiling board my well make up for each lost customer of the previous ( cheaper) windsurfing era, but there should be a place for both. This is not the case.
Many who don't go for the new style of windsurfing, would get onboard, if only they could find moderately priced beginners' equipment, but it is not easy. Even the good old Bic Windsup I have, one of the best and cheaper beginner boards, for its width, stability and sturdyness, now sells for about $ 1000 USD and is not the latest technology.
In only a few years, its price has almost doubled, If you, like me, loathe the flimsy, wobbly, planing-only shortboards and want to sail, for example, on a Kona longboard, it is close to $ 2000. And what about the sails? Some sell for close to $ 1500.. Every manufacturer tries to justify these prices by a grandiloquent marketing ploy which portrays them as if they had reinvented the wheel ..
I am not a beginner. I have been windsurfing for more than twenty years, but I still use a NP 6.2 Garda sail from the 90's..It is perfectly OK with me..I have tried more recent sails, but honestly , I can't see the difference..I am sure if you gave me a $ 1500 sail I wouldn't see the difference either..
There must be one, but it is probably noticeable only in the extreme conditions of racing and competition. Yet, if you want to buy a sail, beginner or not, you have to pay $ 1000 or more.If you can't afford, you stay away or buy a $ 500 kayak.
Certainly, materials have dramatically improved, but, for God's sake, a sail is a sail! Why should they be so darn expensive? Sure, manufacturers have to recover thousands of $$$ invested in R&D for sails and other equipment.
Perhaps this huge outlay of money for R&D was not necessary for sails and we pay the price.The number of features that can be changed or improved in a sail, is after all limited, as sailing is based on the laws of physics, which have been known and applied to navigation for centuries, sometimes intuitively, since antiquity..
Manufacturers make money also and above all by creating or changing perceptions..Nothing wrong with it. Business is business. What is more questionable and deplorable is the lack of discrimination of so many buyers, who believe in the reinvention of the wheel and are willing to pay sometimes disproportionate prices for windsurfing gear and lifestyles, simply because they are.. trendy, " cool" , fashionable and set them apart from the oldtimers and their lifestyles. Perhaps old windsurfing will come back one day, , one hopes, once kitesurfing reaches its zenith..And it will, probably faster than windsurfing, because the sheer number of kitesurfers on a given spot in a windy day is making it a dangerous sport .It also takes almost an airfield to rig and deploy them..
Francone
They recently designed the windsurfer lite especially for you. Didn't they tell you ?
Select to expand quoteFrancone said..
I am picking up from a now closed thread . Just a few thoughts.
Yes, regretfully windsurfing is in full decline. I still keep on, at 78, but I am most of the time the only one on the water..People look at me like an oddity..Yesterday a young mom was walking her kid by the beach and said" Wow, my kid was really impressed with you.." Maybe SHE was impressed because of my age, but the kid had probably never seen a windsurfer before. A sign of the times..
True, all things human wax and wane and windsurfing could not be expected to be the exception...
It was perhaps inevitable that kitesurfing would marginalize and, to an extent, replace windsurfing, at least traditional windsurfing.
I also think, though, that the windsurfing industry has contributed to this, because it has changed its original vocation of a leisurely, affordable, family-oriented, perhaps romantic activity, centered on the enjoyment of nature, into a high-tech,( therefore expensive) speed- and- adrenaline, almost extreme, sport.
Its hyperbole-filled, marketing savvy has succeeded in creating a lucrative venue by catering to a trendy, young population of nimble contortionists and. acrobats, who fearlessly tackle two-storeys high ocean waves or foil 1 m. above the water.
These young windsurfers ( or windsurfers-to-be-) now have come to associate anything other than planing, wave-riding, foiling and speed with. grandpa and..stay away from it.
The lesser revenues for the manufacturers, caused by the dwindling number of traditional windsurfers have in part been compensated by the new windsurfing trend and the high-tech expensive equipment that goes with it.
The profits from a $ 1500 carbon foil on a $ 2000 foiling board my well make up for each lost customer of the previous ( cheaper) windsurfing era, but there should be a place for both. This is not the case.
Many who don't go for the new style of windsurfing, would get onboard, if only they could find moderately priced beginners' equipment, but it is not easy. Even the good old Bic Windsup I have, one of the best and cheaper beginner boards, for its width, stability and sturdyness, now sells for about $ 1000 USD and is not the latest technology.
In only a few years, its price has almost doubled, If you, like me, loathe the flimsy, wobbly, planing-only shortboards and want to sail, for example, on a Kona longboard, it is close to $ 2000. And what about the sails? Some sell for close to $ 1500.. Every manufacturer tries to justify these prices by a grandiloquent marketing ploy which portrays them as if they had reinvented the wheel ..
I am not a beginner. I have been windsurfing for more than twenty years, but I still use a NP 6.2 Garda sail from the 90's..It is perfectly OK with me..I have tried more recent sails, but honestly , I can't see the difference..I am sure if you gave me a $ 1500 sail I wouldn't see the difference either..
There must be one, but it is probably noticeable only in the extreme conditions of racing and competition. Yet, if you want to buy a sail, beginner or not, you have to pay $ 1000 or more.If you can't afford, you stay away or buy a $ 500 kayak.
Certainly, materials have dramatically improved, but, for God's sake, a sail is a sail! Why should they be so darn expensive? Sure, manufacturers have to recover thousands of $$$ invested in R&D for sails and other equipment.
Perhaps this huge outlay of money for R&D was not necessary for sails and we pay the price.The number of features that can be changed or improved in a sail, is after all limited, as sailing is based on the laws of physics, which have been known and applied to navigation for centuries, sometimes intuitively, since antiquity..
Manufacturers make money also and above all by creating or changing perceptions..Nothing wrong with it. Business is business. What is more questionable and deplorable is the lack of discrimination of so many buyers, who believe in the reinvention of the wheel and are willing to pay sometimes disproportionate prices for windsurfing gear and lifestyles, simply because they are.. trendy, " cool" , fashionable and set them apart from the oldtimers and their lifestyles. Perhaps old windsurfing will come back one day, , one hopes, once kitesurfing reaches its zenith..And it will, probably faster than windsurfing, because the sheer number of kitesurfers on a given spot in a windy day is making it a dangerous sport .It also takes almost an airfield to rig and deploy them..
Francone
Respect to you though, for still sailing at 78 years old. I hope I am still up to it by the time I'm that age.
Select to expand quotekato said..
If windsurfing stayed as a OD we would have missed out on all the great improvements. I thought I'd list them but there's just too many.
Good luck to all who enjoy the crap sail and heavy board but I'll stick to the modern gear and having fun. Yes I run with a F&$king big trailer but it has all my toys for the beach and I never miss out cos something's left at home. No wind to lots and yes it does cost $$ but what doesn't and you can play all day. Some of my stuff is 10 yrs old and in today's $ a 3.5k board that's lasted gets me $350 per yr enjoyment. Hate to think what it's per km 
Perhaps the death of our sport is due to the pursuit of attracting youth to the sport. Don't drive, have money or the time to drop everything to sail. The beauty of our sport is that there is no timetable of when you can play. Just add wind.
Basketball , footy netball etc all have set times and seasons and you retire in your 30/40s.Perhaps that's our market, not youth and not triangle racing on old crap. OD kills innovation, remember the quick cat or the moth yachts ? What survived and why is sailing still in decline?
I'll just stick to having fun 
and sailing on my own.....it's COVID safe too 
No one said anything about the whole sport sticking to OD, did they? I certainly never said that or thought it. All I was driving is that learning from growing pastimes, and respecting every part of windsurfing (rather than slinging **** at it) can help the entire sport.
What survived in boat sailing? Mainly the one designs, actually. I'm not BSing about this - I've actually spent a long time doing actual research on the movements within sailing. There has been a strong long-term shift AWAY from "innovative" designs, because these days "innovation" normally means just buying new stuff rather than making it yourself. That's the facts.
So let's look at Moths, for example. Back when windsurfing was in its growth phase, there were something like 250 Moths racing in NSW, and about 350 Lasers. Nowadays there are still something like 250-300 Lasers (IIRC), and about 30 Moths - and according to the class' own accounts it's losing numbers there.
Y'know how many of the awesome Moths started in the last Victorian titles? Eight. Yep, eight, and that included three interstate entries. So are you claiming that an 8 boat fleet is the best model to follow, rather than the style that gets 54 (LT) , 58 (Sabre) or 149 (Laser) to the Victorian titles? Why do you apparently reckon we should follow the model that gets about 2% of the entrants, rather than the other model?
The numbers don't lie, and the main numerical decline in small-craft sailing has been in the development classes. I have no reason to like that - my first boat was a development class (Moth), my second to about 20th windsurfers were development classes, and two of the five classes I currently sail are development classes. My dad was a skiff champ. I write a blog about design development in boats. It's not as if I'm a one-eyed OD fan.
But why do you apparently want us to ignore reality? Facts are facts. Times and technology have changed, and sadly the popularity of development classes has dropped sharply - shouldn't fans of development acknowledge that?
No one is saying, or has ever said, that we should dump foiling, slalom, waves, speed, etc. No one is saying that guys like you have to dump the windsurfing you love (and many OD fans love). But the "extreme sport" concept has clearly NOT worked for windsurfing, as far as maintaining its place as a reasonably popular sport.
I have found this thread very interesting, mainly because it is asking EXACTLY the same question that other sports/clubs I have been involved in have been asking over the last couple of years. From their surveys, discussions and trials it was found/
1. We live in a NOW time... Where if a person can't do it now, easily and with no great skill set, then they simply couldn't be bothered. (This is not windsurfing. )
2. People don't want ties, obligations or commitments to a club... they are happy to have a go, try for a few months, then look for something new. People don't want to commit large amounts of money, but would rather hire the best gear for a period, rather than own it, then move to try something else.
3. People are time poor... they prefer to travel as little as possible for recreation or entertainment. That's why bars, gyms etc are centred within communities and people participate in activities offered in the local area.
4. People are still social creatures and seek connection... so activities with a great social aspect to them tend to thrive. Eg. Netball
A kayak club I was involved in was in serious decline, so changed its focus from racing to social (fun races with no real winners, no trophies, pizza paddles, weekend paddles away, etc) and it grew and kept members. Some still raced, but racing was no longer the clubs focus.
5. The internet... this delivers up so much of many people's needs: entertainment, social contact, education, etc and all for a few dollars a week.
In view of all this, I believe windsurfing is doing quite well.
in 2000 to about 2010, locally there'd only be windsurfers at one or two spots on a windy day, and often it took a posting on seabreeze to get people out. Now there's always someone at a spot if there's wind, and people windsurfing anywhere on the broadwater. it might now be the most active it's been in 20 years.
It was surprising how many young female windsurfers there were at wello a couple of weeks back. 10 years ago, young + female + windsurfer in one sentence was almost unimaginable
(unless it was Lana the windsurfing centrefold from Russia)
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..kato said..
If windsurfing stayed as a OD we would have missed out on all the great improvements. I thought I'd list them but there's just too many.
Good luck to all who enjoy the crap sail and heavy board but I'll stick to the modern gear and having fun. Yes I run with a F&$king big trailer but it has all my toys for the beach and I never miss out cos something's left at home. No wind to lots and yes it does cost $$ but what doesn't and you can play all day. Some of my stuff is 10 yrs old and in today's $ a 3.5k board that's lasted gets me $350 per yr enjoyment. Hate to think what it's per km
Perhaps the death of our sport is due to the pursuit of attracting youth to the sport. Don't drive, have money or the time to drop everything to sail. The beauty of our sport is that there is no timetable of when you can play. Just add wind.
Basketball , footy netball etc all have set times and seasons and you retire in your 30/40s.Perhaps that's our market, not youth and not triangle racing on old crap. OD kills innovation, remember the quick cat or the moth yachts ? What survived and why is sailing still in decline?
I'll just stick to having fun and sailing on my own.....it's COVID safe too
No one said anything about the whole sport sticking to OD, did they? I certainly never said that or thought it. All I was driving is that learning from growing pastimes, and respecting every part of windsurfing (rather than slinging **** at it) can help the entire sport.
What survived in boat sailing? Mainly the one designs, actually. I'm not BSing about this - I've actually spent a long time doing actual research on the movements within sailing. There has been a strong long-term shift AWAY from "innovative" designs, because these days "innovation" normally means just buying new stuff rather than making it yourself. That's the facts.
So let's look at Moths, for example. Back when windsurfing was in its growth phase, there were something like 250 Moths racing in NSW, and about 350 Lasers. Nowadays there are still something like 250-300 Lasers (IIRC), and about 30 Moths - and according to the class' own accounts it's losing numbers there.
Y'know how many of the awesome Moths started in the last Victorian titles? Eight. Yep, eight, and that included three interstate entries. So are you claiming that an 8 boat fleet is the best model to follow, rather than the style that gets 54 (LT) , 58 (Sabre) or 149 (Laser) to the Victorian titles? Why do you apparently reckon we should follow the model that gets about 2% of the entrants, rather than the other model?
The numbers don't lie, and the main numerical decline in small-craft sailing has been in the development classes. I have no reason to like that - my first boat was a development class (Moth), my second to about 20th windsurfers were development classes, and two of the five classes I currently sail are development classes. My dad was a skiff champ. I write a blog about design development in boats. It's not as if I'm a one-eyed OD fan.
But why do you apparently want us to ignore reality? Facts are facts. Times and technology have changed, and sadly the popularity of development classes has dropped sharply - shouldn't fans of development acknowledge that?
No one is saying, or has ever said, that we should dump foiling, slalom, waves, speed, etc. No one is saying that guys like you have to dump the windsurfing you love (and many OD fans love). But the "extreme sport" concept has clearly NOT worked for windsurfing, as far as maintaining its place as a reasonably popular sport.
What's the thread about again ? Arrr well another post not to look at as it's going in circles
Just a side comment- Does anyone else have the pleasure of skiing every weekend with a family of four? 2 kids 2 adults? We own adult skits, have to rent for the kids. Season passes for adults in my area start at 1,600 USD. Add in clothing, gas, food... it makes windsurfing seem cheap!!!
Select to expand quoteJonnyWindsurf said..
Just a side comment- Does anyone else have the pleasure of skiing every weekend with a family of four? 2 kids 2 adults? We own adult skits, have to rent for the kids. Season passes for adults in my area start at 1,600 USD. Add in clothing, gas, food... it makes windsurfing seem cheap!!!
Yep. Thats the truth. But hell I LOVE skiing! And I consider myself very fortunate that my 2 kids were able to grow up skiing with us. But Wow! That season pass price seems high, especially for the USA!
There are no cheap 'non team', 'active' type sports really. and even in windsurfing you can have a LOT of fun on the cheap if you are not chasing the latest and greatest gear. My sister rides Horses and my brother races Motorbikes. I certainly don't feel like I spend more then them.
Windsurfing was on the decline in the Pacific Northwest of USA despite the Gorge. Seattle went from 5 stores to one, and that one caters more to kiteboarders but they still carry windsurfing gear.
But now in the past 3 years or so, the windsurfing scene in the Seattle area has pretty much exploded. Many new windsurfers and new windfoilers. We know this from the membership numbers, and active participation numbers, in a local online group called the NW-Windtalk.
A big part of the increase has been due to the tireless efforts of several leaders and mentors in the Seattle area. Good going, guys and gals.
Select to expand quotePaddles B'mere said..
Absolutely right cammd, as a "niche" activity it's not that expensive (compared to say buying a new MX bike every few years as an example); but as a "mainstream" activity it is way more expensive than many other family water sport activities when it comes to price. And that has to be a large contributing factor to it not appealing to the masses any more.
Perhaps it is no longer a "mainstream" sport and as such there is no reason to manufacture gear for the "masses". I am in secondary education and most kids have a hard time understanding what I'm talking about when I tell them about windsurfing/foiling, despite the school that I'm at being only 100m away from a very popular location for enthusiasts of this sport.
To me it's the old chicken and the egg conundrum. Is the sport not "mainstream" because the manufacturers don't produce gear for that market (other than the LT perhaps) or do the manufacturers not produce this gear because there is no market?
I suspect it's the latter.
I think the longevity of this sport lies in the diversity of options available to learners and long term enthusiasts.
It's on the fringes of mainstream that this sport is thriving.
Your version of the sport may be in decline but there is a significant resurgence in the huge variety of options in other versions.
Best time to be into this sport I reckon.
I like your analysis AntMan and it probably rings true. If we consider that the only desire of a business is to make profit, then we must assume that the windsurfing industry believes that there is no profit to be made from the "mainstream" (or that mainstream products simply can't be made cheaply enough to make the margins they currently enjoy from niche products). Therefore windsurfing is pushed into being a "niche" activity by the industry because that's where the margin is best. ie why bother trying to compete with $399 plastic kayaks and $100 boogie boards. The sport probably isn't in decline, it's just changing to where the industry can be most efficient.
Select to expand quoteAnt-man said..Paddles B'mere said..
Absolutely right cammd, as a "niche" activity it's not that expensive (compared to say buying a new MX bike every few years as an example); but as a "mainstream" activity it is way more expensive than many other family water sport activities when it comes to price. And that has to be a large contributing factor to it not appealing to the masses any more.
Perhaps it is no longer a "mainstream" sport and as such there is no reason to manufacture gear for the "masses". I am in secondary education and most kids have a hard time understanding what I'm talking about when I tell them about windsurfing/foiling, despite the school that I'm at being only 100m away from a very popular location for enthusiasts of this sport.
To me it's the old chicken and the egg conundrum. Is the sport not "mainstream" because the manufacturers don't produce gear for that market (other than the LT perhaps) or do the manufacturers not produce this gear because there is no market?
I suspect it's the latter.
I think the longevity of this sport lies in the diversity of options available to learners and long term enthusiasts.
It's on the fringes of mainstream that this sport is thriving.
Your version of the sport may be in decline but there is a significant resurgence in the huge variety of options in other versions.
Best time to be into this sport I reckon.
It was much more of a mainstream sport when the manufacturers were producing gear for the beginners/weekend light wind sailing/club racing market. Then, as inevitably happened, that market was saturated by existing gear, and sales plummeted. A couple of bad summers in Germany, one of the biggest markets, didn't help. There was also a lot of competition for the high-end manufacturers from manufacturers churning out cheap boards.
The high-end manufacturers then started to promote "high-performance" gear, because they could see that converting existing "mainstream" windsurfers was where the profits lay. Some of them were quite open and explicit about this. It wasn't a secret or a mystery; for example F2's management said it openly. So did Neil Pryde himself.
But that in turn meant that the sport started to ignore beginners and instead concentrated on a much smaller sector of people, mainly those who had got into the sport earlier AND wanted to keep on buying new gear every year or two. When you largely ignore beginners, or people who can't get to the "right" locations often enough and easily enough, then obviously the sport will shrink.
Being inside the industry also skews your point of view. When you're talking or doing windsurfing 50+ hours a week, and can easily get new kit, and are surrounded by other people in the industry, and your paypacket next month depends on selling new gear next month rather than ensuring there will be new sailors in three years time, you don't see the sport in the same way as the typical potential customer does.
This sort of stuff is well known amongst those who study sports marketing trends etc. It is openly recognised by SUP vendors; by guys like TIm Neimier, who is credited with the sit-on-top plastic kayak boom; by successful brands in sailboats, etc. As you say, Ant, success lies in diversity but for some reason the idea annoys some existing windsurfers.
The LT is, good sources say, the top selling board in the world. It's pretty much the cheapest bit of sailing kit afloat, but still lots more expensive than most other sports. When you compare it to the price of a board in the boom days it's not more expensive in terms of how long you have to work to earn one, but it is more expensive compared to many other consumer goods.
Select to expand quotekato said..Chris 249 said..kato said..
If windsurfing stayed as a OD we would have missed out on all the great improvements. I thought I'd list them but there's just too many.
Good luck to all who enjoy the crap sail and heavy board but I'll stick to the modern gear and having fun. Yes I run with a F&$king big trailer but it has all my toys for the beach and I never miss out cos something's left at home. No wind to lots and yes it does cost $$ but what doesn't and you can play all day. Some of my stuff is 10 yrs old and in today's $ a 3.5k board that's lasted gets me $350 per yr enjoyment. Hate to think what it's per km
Perhaps the death of our sport is due to the pursuit of attracting youth to the sport. Don't drive, have money or the time to drop everything to sail. The beauty of our sport is that there is no timetable of when you can play. Just add wind.
Basketball , footy netball etc all have set times and seasons and you retire in your 30/40s.Perhaps that's our market, not youth and not triangle racing on old crap. OD kills innovation, remember the quick cat or the moth yachts ? What survived and why is sailing still in decline?
I'll just stick to having fun and sailing on my own.....it's COVID safe too
No one said anything about the whole sport sticking to OD, did they? I certainly never said that or thought it. All I was driving is that learning from growing pastimes, and respecting every part of windsurfing (rather than slinging **** at it) can help the entire sport.
What survived in boat sailing? Mainly the one designs, actually. I'm not BSing about this - I've actually spent a long time doing actual research on the movements within sailing. There has been a strong long-term shift AWAY from "innovative" designs, because these days "innovation" normally means just buying new stuff rather than making it yourself. That's the facts.
So let's look at Moths, for example. Back when windsurfing was in its growth phase, there were something like 250 Moths racing in NSW, and about 350 Lasers. Nowadays there are still something like 250-300 Lasers (IIRC), and about 30 Moths - and according to the class' own accounts it's losing numbers there.
Y'know how many of the awesome Moths started in the last Victorian titles? Eight. Yep, eight, and that included three interstate entries. So are you claiming that an 8 boat fleet is the best model to follow, rather than the style that gets 54 (LT) , 58 (Sabre) or 149 (Laser) to the Victorian titles? Why do you apparently reckon we should follow the model that gets about 2% of the entrants, rather than the other model?
The numbers don't lie, and the main numerical decline in small-craft sailing has been in the development classes. I have no reason to like that - my first boat was a development class (Moth), my second to about 20th windsurfers were development classes, and two of the five classes I currently sail are development classes. My dad was a skiff champ. I write a blog about design development in boats. It's not as if I'm a one-eyed OD fan.
But why do you apparently want us to ignore reality? Facts are facts. Times and technology have changed, and sadly the popularity of development classes has dropped sharply - shouldn't fans of development acknowledge that?
No one is saying, or has ever said, that we should dump foiling, slalom, waves, speed, etc. No one is saying that guys like you have to dump the windsurfing you love (and many OD fans love). But the "extreme sport" concept has clearly NOT worked for windsurfing, as far as maintaining its place as a reasonably popular sport.
What's the thread about again ? Arrr well another post not to look at as it's going in circles
Hang on, you asked a question and I answered it, pointing out that your inference was wrong and that anyone who wants to do actual research can see that the numbers show it. Why is that going around in circles?
Or they started producing more interesting equipment because the other stuff gets dull after a couple of weeks.
I'm guessing half the SUPs sold have seen maybe 20 hours on the water for the same reason.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Francone I don't know what your talking about, windsurfing gear is not expensive, the bike shop over the roads from me has 12k bikes in the window to give you a comparison, how much is a pair of footy boots now and a ball, must be into the hundreds at least, as a sailing sport windsurfing is the cheapest.
Not a particularly good example. There are plenty of $400 dollar bikes that will suit 95% of people. Last soccer ball I bought for my kids was an official FiFa ball for $39.95 on sale. Soccer boots can be had for less than $100 unless you want the latest Ronaldo kicks.
I have had the discussion around price with a few brands. I don't think it's easy for them to find the right price point. It would be great to see a brand like Severne or Starboard to come out with a new sub-brand specifically targeting the casual / beginners market. A bit like what Sunova did with the Suns brand.
The European market, which is by far the biggest windsurf market, does have some direct to market consumer brands such as Gun Sails. Their end of season sales provide sails at a costwhich isfairly reasonable.
That said on the premium end I think brands such as Fanatic have lost the plot a bit when they are selling boards for 3,200 Euro. I think if you have the skill set to buy a board at that level you are better served getting a custom board from someone like KeithTeboul. I have the strong suspicion that the majority of people that buy those boards do so as a status symbol rather then for performance or durability.
Is windsurfing still in decline? Pretty much all trends sport go through a peak period then tapper off. You get the initial excitement were everyone thinks they need one. How many people bought a SUP that's now sitting in the garage never to be used again. I think windsurfing has stabilised. I have seen a few people coming back from kiting or even having started with kiting and then switching to windsurfing.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
Or they started producing more interesting equipment because the other stuff gets dull after a couple of weeks.
I'm guessing half the SUPs sold have seen maybe 20 hours on the water for the same reason.
Have you told various Olympians, World Cup winners etc that "the other stuff gets dull"??? Plenty of the best sailors in the world sailed "old stuff" for year on year and loved it. There's still plenty of world class Raceboarders (to name a great class you seem to love) who are sailing on "old stuff" and loving it. Are you saying they are idiots because they sail boards that "get dull"???? Plenty of people love honing their act on the same gear, or love close and even racing, or simplicity, or being able to sail on confined waters, or the feeling of a long board cranked onto the rail, or the feeling of a light rig.
Okay, you may get bored on "old stuff" but since when did your own preferences matter a damn to anyone else? I get bored bat**** going BAF on slalom gear and dislike hybrid Raceboards, but other people love that stuff so good on them. Why sling **** at a form of the sport just because it doesn't happen to be what you like?
Select to expand quotestehsegler said..cammd said..
Francone I don't know what your talking about, windsurfing gear is not expensive, the bike shop over the roads from me has 12k bikes in the window to give you a comparison, how much is a pair of footy boots now and a ball, must be into the hundreds at least, as a sailing sport windsurfing is the cheapest.
Not a particularly good example. There are plenty of $400 dollar bikes that will suit 95% of people. Last soccer ball I bought for my kids was an official FiFa ball for $39.95 on sale. Soccer boots can be had for less than $100 unless you want the latest Ronaldo kicks.
I have had the discussion around price with a few brands. I don't think it's easy for them to find the right price point. It would be great to see a brand like Severne or Starboard to come out with a new sub-brand specifically targeting the casual / beginners market. A bit like what Sunova did with the Suns brand.
The European market, which is by far the biggest windsurf market, does have some direct to market consumer brands such as Gun Sails. Their end of season sales provide sails at a costwhich isfairly reasonable.
That said on the premium end I think brands such as Fanatic have lost the plot a bit when they are selling boards for 3,200 Euro. I think if you have the skill set to buy a board at that level you are better served getting a custom board from someone like KeithTeboul. I have the strong suspicion that the majority of people that buy those boards do so as a status symbol rather then for performance or durability.
Is windsurfing still in decline? Pretty much all trends sport go through a peak period then tapper off. You get the initial excitement were everyone thinks they need one. How many people bought a SUP that's now sitting in the garage never to be used again. I think windsurfing has stabilised. I have seen a few people coming back from kiting or even having started with kiting and then switching to windsurfing.
think you nailed it.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..stehsegler said..cammd said..
Francone I don't know what your talking about, windsurfing gear is not expensive, the bike shop over the roads from me has 12k bikes in the window to give you a comparison, how much is a pair of footy boots now and a ball, must be into the hundreds at least, as a sailing sport windsurfing is the cheapest.
Not a particularly good example. There are plenty of $400 dollar bikes that will suit 95% of people. Last soccer ball I bought for my kids was an official FiFa ball for $39.95 on sale. Soccer boots can be had for less than $100 unless you want the latest Ronaldo kicks.
I have had the discussion around price with a few brands. I don't think it's easy for them to find the right price point. It would be great to see a brand like Severne or Starboard to come out with a new sub-brand specifically targeting the casual / beginners market. A bit like what Sunova did with the Suns brand.
The European market, which is by far the biggest windsurf market, does have some direct to market consumer brands such as Gun Sails. Their end of season sales provide sails at a costwhich isfairly reasonable.
That said on the premium end I think brands such as Fanatic have lost the plot a bit when they are selling boards for 3,200 Euro. I think if you have the skill set to buy a board at that level you are better served getting a custom board from someone like KeithTeboul. I have the strong suspicion that the majority of people that buy those boards do so as a status symbol rather then for performance or durability.
Is windsurfing still in decline? Pretty much all trends sport go through a peak period then tapper off. You get the initial excitement were everyone thinks they need one. How many people bought a SUP that's now sitting in the garage never to be used again. I think windsurfing has stabilised. I have seen a few people coming back from kiting or even having started with kiting and then switching to windsurfing.
think you nailed it.
seems then that the decathalon rig Chris put forward in the LT thread needs reconsidering, maybe the "$400 bike" option will do just fine as a one design rig for kids.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Francone I don't know what your talking about, windsurfing gear is not expensive, the bike shop over the roads from me has 12k bikes in the window to give you a comparison, how much is a pair of footy boots now and a ball, must be into the hundreds at least, as a sailing sport windsurfing is the cheapest. A $1500 windsurf sail is cheap compared to dinghy sails and the tech is far more advanced and they last longer in a competitive sense. The traditional dacron sails are "blown out" after one regatta in many classes, sure they are still good for training but have lost that competitive edge.
Maybe you don't want to race or compete and thats fine but many do and we wear gear out, there is no way a sail from the 90's is going to see a season out of racing every week. Wearing gear out is a good thing as well, it means its getting used. The other side of competitioon is the community that gets built up around it, not just locally but nationally and internationally as well
Windsurfing has always been a tech sport as well, right from the start windsurfers have been innovating looking for more performance and improvements and not just the manufacturer's but ther sailors themselves, look at the old photos of guys in waves on custom boards they built themselves or altering the rocker line on old WOD's by heating them in the sun for example.
Windsurfing is a innovative sport, its always been at the cutting edge of sailing tech, that is the windsurfing tradition.
Think he nailed it , ditto.
LOL As im throwing my gear in the car for a few weeks frothing ,THEN ,,,i seen ya comment and thought maybe may not , then chuckled,,,, at least ill be self isolating ,,,,,riding waves windsurfing 
Select to expand quoteFrancone said..
Still,and here is my point, even by these sacrosanct laws, manufacturers would still thrive and more people would be encouraged to get into windsurfing if the profit didn't make such a substantial part of the selling price.or the costs were not inflated by an indiscriminate race towards technology, which not everybody really needs, but which , in the end, everybody, beginner or not, must pay for.
Some windsurfing gear is made overseas, in China, Thailand, Vietnam or other cheap labor places. A sail that probably cost only a few dollars in Asia is now sold in the affluent western markets for $ 1000 or more .
Hard to believe that the manufacturer could not sell it for substantially less, ..say $500 or even less, and still recover his costs ( R&D and other) in addition to making a healthy profit, far from the 1000% margin it actually made by having it subcontracted to an Asian laborer....
Moving away from sheer greed, under the complacent banner of the free market and its law of offer and demand, is only a part of what the windsurfing industry could an should have done to keep windsurfing alive and ..didn't do.
I really wonder how much the cost of carbon and the wage of the Asian laborer account for in the price of a carbon foil made in China or Vietnam and sold in the western markets for $ 1500 by Starboard or other leading manufacturers.
Francone
First of all respect for still being passionate about this sport we all love! ... Secondly, For someone who has lived so long, you seem somehow ignorant of the realities of business. In fact the profit margins for windsurfing gear are incredibly small & shrinking year by year. The real money in Windsurfing was made back in the heyday of the 80's & 90's when everything was so "simple" & "inexpensive". Though gear was cheaper "back in the day" profits were actually much higher. The fact is, basic inflation as well as the ever increasing skill & Technology required to produce modern gear has caused prices to rise. Your 1,000% margin is actually more like 30% from distributor to dealer then another 30% to the retailer which leaves precious little for the shop to make any money. Your $1,000 sail may have cost the distributor nearly $400 even with "Cheap" Asian labor. The materials are not cheap & the factories that make boards, sails, masts, booms etc are very specialized with highly skilled labor force. The fact is the few remaining Windsurfing companies are run by individuals & teams who Love Windsurfing, they are passionate about it... If they weren't, they would be doing something more profitable.
I don't think the sport was ever really mainstream. It was certainly more prominent in its heyday and often the image of choice in homewares catalogues selling Tv's.
I think it's become even less relevant over the years because,
1. We and the manufacturers haven't invested enough time into beginners. They are the future of our sport.
2. There is way too much gear choice, most of which is unsuitable for beginners - even modern full battened flat kids rigs are crap.
3. There's no front end to the sport - less/no shopfronts or hire places.
4. While our population has increased its not by people who come from watersport/sailing type nations.
5. It was always going to decline to some extent. Lots of other choices for kids these days.
There should be 1 x universal beginner/race board (LT - keep it simple stupid).
Where once we'd sail in light winds and could teach our friend or even a passer by our gear is way too high end for that now.
Sailing clubs often have old club members who teach sailing. We should encourage sailing clubs to have a few boards and do whatever we can to teach others outside of clubs.
Windsurfing and particularly sailing have become far less relevant than they should be in Australia. We have the best sailors but can't even mount our own AC entry yet our neighbour across the ditch with 20% of our population can.
Select to expand quotegorgesailor said..Francone said..
Still,and here is my point, even by these sacrosanct laws, manufacturers would still thrive and more people would be encouraged to get into windsurfing if the profit didn't make such a substantial part of the selling price.or the costs were not inflated by an indiscriminate race towards technology, which not everybody really needs, but which , in the end, everybody, beginner or not, must pay for.
Some windsurfing gear is made overseas, in China, Thailand, Vietnam or other cheap labor places. A sail that probably cost only a few dollars in Asia is now sold in the affluent western markets for $ 1000 or more .
Hard to believe that the manufacturer could not sell it for substantially less, ..say $500 or even less, and still recover his costs ( R&D and other) in addition to making a healthy profit, far from the 1000% margin it actually made by having it subcontracted to an Asian laborer....
Moving away from sheer greed, under the complacent banner of the free market and its law of offer and demand, is only a part of what the windsurfing industry could an should have done to keep windsurfing alive and ..didn't do.
I really wonder how much the cost of carbon and the wage of the Asian laborer account for in the price of a carbon foil made in China or Vietnam and sold in the western markets for $ 1500 by Starboard or other leading manufacturers.
Francone
First of all respect for still being passionate about this sport we all love! ... Secondly, For someone who has lived so long, you are incredibly ignorant of the realities of business. In fact the profit margins for windsurfing gear are incredibly small & shrinking year by year. The real money in Windsurfing was made back in the heyday of the 80's & 90's when everything was so "simple" & "inexpensive". Though gear was cheaper "back in the day" profits were actually much higher. The fact is, basic inflation as well as the ever increasing skill & Technology required to produce modern gear has caused prices to rise. Your 1,000% margin is actually more like 30% from distributor to dealer then another 30% to the retailer which leaves precious little for the shop to make any money. Your $1,000 sail may have cost the distributor nearly $400 even with "Cheap" Asian labor. The materials are not cheap & the factories that make boards, sails, masts, booms etc are very specialized with highly skilled labor force. The fact is the few remaining Windsurfing companies are run by individuals & teams who Love Windsurfing, they are passionate about it... If they weren't, they would be doing something more profitable.
Suggest we get our points across without unnecessarily taking at dig at someone who is older and probably wiser than most of us.
The Windsurfer is going well, please stop tarnishing it's name with other forms of sail boarding !
Select to expand quoteMatStirl said..gorgesailor said..Francone said..
Still,and here is my point, even by these sacrosanct laws, manufacturers would still thrive and more people would be encouraged to get into windsurfing if the profit didn't make such a substantial part of the selling price.or the costs were not inflated by an indiscriminate race towards technology, which not everybody really needs, but which , in the end, everybody, beginner or not, must pay for.
Some windsurfing gear is made overseas, in China, Thailand, Vietnam or other cheap labor places. A sail that probably cost only a few dollars in Asia is now sold in the affluent western markets for $ 1000 or more .
Hard to believe that the manufacturer could not sell it for substantially less, ..say $500 or even less, and still recover his costs ( R&D and other) in addition to making a healthy profit, far from the 1000% margin it actually made by having it subcontracted to an Asian laborer....
Moving away from sheer greed, under the complacent banner of the free market and its law of offer and demand, is only a part of what the windsurfing industry could an should have done to keep windsurfing alive and ..didn't do.
I really wonder how much the cost of carbon and the wage of the Asian laborer account for in the price of a carbon foil made in China or Vietnam and sold in the western markets for $ 1500 by Starboard or other leading manufacturers.
Francone
First of all respect for still being passionate about this sport we all love! ... Secondly, For someone who has lived so long, you are incredibly ignorant of the realities of business. In fact the profit margins for windsurfing gear are incredibly small & shrinking year by year. The real money in Windsurfing was made back in the heyday of the 80's & 90's when everything was so "simple" & "inexpensive". Though gear was cheaper "back in the day" profits were actually much higher. The fact is, basic inflation as well as the ever increasing skill & Technology required to produce modern gear has caused prices to rise. Your 1,000% margin is actually more like 30% from distributor to dealer then another 30% to the retailer which leaves precious little for the shop to make any money. Your $1,000 sail may have cost the distributor nearly $400 even with "Cheap" Asian labor. The materials are not cheap & the factories that make boards, sails, masts, booms etc are very specialized with highly skilled labor force. The fact is the few remaining Windsurfing companies are run by individuals & teams who Love Windsurfing, they are passionate about it... If they weren't, they would be doing something more profitable.
Suggest we get our points across without unnecessarily taking at dig at someone who is older and probably wiser than most of us.
I apologize. I will re-word it - I only intended to educate... But his comment is so far removed from reality - a reality that is my life & that of my associates in the industry... I take it quite personally that anyone could think we are fleecing the public for some huge profits is not only laughable but offensive.
Select to expand quoteMatStirl said..
There should be 1 x universal beginner/race board (LT - keep it simple stupid).
The Techno 293OD is the closest thing to a universal beginner/race board, the class is established on every continent and has massive participation etc etc etc.
Your arguement for having one universal beginner/race board is shot down down by itself by arguing for a new board that would dilute the already established one.
Personally I think each class/board should live or die on its merits, let sailors decide what they want to sail.
Select to expand quotegorgesailor said..MatStirl said..gorgesailor said..Francone said..
Still,and here is my point, even by these sacrosanct laws, manufacturers would still thrive and more people would be encouraged to get into windsurfing if the profit didn't make such a substantial part of the selling price.or the costs were not inflated by an indiscriminate race towards technology, which not everybody really needs, but which , in the end, everybody, beginner or not, must pay for.
Some windsurfing gear is made overseas, in China, Thailand, Vietnam or other cheap labor places. A sail that probably cost only a few dollars in Asia is now sold in the affluent western markets for $ 1000 or more .
Hard to believe that the manufacturer could not sell it for substantially less, ..say $500 or even less, and still recover his costs ( R&D and other) in addition to making a healthy profit, far from the 1000% margin it actually made by having it subcontracted to an Asian laborer....
Moving away from sheer greed, under the complacent banner of the free market and its law of offer and demand, is only a part of what the windsurfing industry could an should have done to keep windsurfing alive and ..didn't do.
I really wonder how much the cost of carbon and the wage of the Asian laborer account for in the price of a carbon foil made in China or Vietnam and sold in the western markets for $ 1500 by Starboard or other leading manufacturers.
Francone
First of all respect for still being passionate about this sport we all love! ... Secondly, For someone who has lived so long, you are incredibly ignorant of the realities of business. In fact the profit margins for windsurfing gear are incredibly small & shrinking year by year. The real money in Windsurfing was made back in the heyday of the 80's & 90's when everything was so "simple" & "inexpensive". Though gear was cheaper "back in the day" profits were actually much higher. The fact is, basic inflation as well as the ever increasing skill & Technology required to produce modern gear has caused prices to rise. Your 1,000% margin is actually more like 30% from distributor to dealer then another 30% to the retailer which leaves precious little for the shop to make any money. Your $1,000 sail may have cost the distributor nearly $400 even with "Cheap" Asian labor. The materials are not cheap & the factories that make boards, sails, masts, booms etc are very specialized with highly skilled labor force. The fact is the few remaining Windsurfing companies are run by individuals & teams who Love Windsurfing, they are passionate about it... If they weren't, they would be doing something more profitable.
Suggest we get our points across without unnecessarily taking at dig at someone who is older and probably wiser than most of us.
I apologize. I will re-word it - I only intended to educate... But - his comment is so far removed from reality - a reality that is my life & that of my associates in the industry. I take it quite personally that anyone could think we are fleecing the public for some huge profits is not only laughable but offensive.
I thought attributing a decline in windsurfing to the "sheer greed" of the industry was not only incorrect but very harsh as well so not surprised anyone in the industry would be offended by that comment.
Select to expand quotewindsufering said..
The Windsurfer is going well, please stop tarnishing it's name with other forms of sail boarding !
Windsurfing International claimed trademark rights with respect to the word "windsurfer". While this was registered in the United States for some years, it was not accepted for registration in many jurisdictions as the word was considered too descriptive. Registration was ultimately lost in the United States for the same reason.The Schweitzers initially chose the word for its descriptive quality. Unfortunately they immediately set out diminishing its value by naming their company "Windsurfing International" and even referring to themselves and their own children as "windsurfers". History would reveal that this nomenclature from Schweitzer did indeed become the universally accepted way of describing the sport, the participants, and the equivalent. As the word was rejected as legally registrable for patent purposes in a number of countries, lawyers advised that to be successful the word would have to be used as a proper adjective. They realised that this required a number of generic nouns to which the adjective would apply: sailboard, boardsailing, planche a voile, segelbrett and so on. The rearguard action was ultimately unsuccessful and arguably created considerable confusion which hampered marketing efforts in later years. Today the word windsurfer is completely dominant around the world.
Select to expand quotecammd said..MatStirl said..
There should be 1 x universal beginner/race board (LT - keep it simple stupid).
The Techno 293OD is the closest thing to a universal beginner/race board, the class is established on every continent and has massive participation etc etc etc.
Your arguement for having one universal beginner/race board is shot down down by itself by arguing for a new board that would dilute the already established one.
Personally I think each class/board should live or die on its merits, let sailors decide what they want to sail.
The T293, while a fine class, is not a "universal race board" because it's aimed at for medium to lightweights and is very much still a kids or youth board, as the marketing (and weight range) says. There were fewer than 19 open-age sailors at the T293+ worlds, mainly Japanese, and only 19 youths. The total fleet was 38 sailors, for an event in Europe. That's not very close to a major universal class. I can't work out why some of the "open age" sailors were put in the Open group, since the top two (for example) were both still racing Youth class in other regattas at the time, so there were in fact fewer than 19 "adult" sailors. The T293+ isn't attracting many adults and therefore is not really "universal".
The Techno class is also diluting itself by countries like Germany now officially promoting the IQFoil and the Techno Windfoil 130 for everyone over 17, and (from what I can see) World Sailing and the Techno class itself promoting the all new foiling kit. So the Techno 293 is not looking to be very close to a universal class itself much longer.
Select to expand quoteJohn340 said..windsufering said..
The Windsurfer is going well, please stop tarnishing it's name with other forms of sail boarding !
Windsurfing International claimed trademark rights with respect to the word "windsurfer". While this was registered in the United States for some years, it was not accepted for registration in many jurisdictions as the word was considered too descriptive. Registration was ultimately lost in the United States for the same reason.The Schweitzers initially chose the word for its descriptive quality. Unfortunately they immediately set out diminishing its value by naming their company "Windsurfing International" and even referring to themselves and their own children as "windsurfers". History would reveal that this nomenclature from Schweitzer did indeed become the universally accepted way of describing the sport, the participants, and the equivalent. As the word was rejected as legally registrable for patent purposes in a number of countries, lawyers advised that to be successful the word would have to be used as a proper adjective. They realised that this required a number of generic nouns to which the adjective would apply: sailboard, boardsailing, planche a voile, segelbrett and so on. The rearguard action was ultimately unsuccessful and arguably created considerable confusion which hampered marketing efforts in later years. Today the word windsurfer is completely dominant around the world.
Yes, but some people have been weird enough to claim that sailing a Windsurfer is "not windsurfing", which is utterly stupid considering that Bert Salisbury (who coined the term) applied it to the Schweitzer/Drake Windsurfer (TM) as it then was and as it was then used.
You are largely correct on the law (although the term was not patentable; it was a trademark). Windsurfing International did in fact try quite hard to ensure the term did not become a generic, although those efforts may have been a bit late. On the other hand, it's ironic that people (not you) who would often reject the legal definition of a term have been known to resort to the legalities when it comes to this one word.
Windsurfing isn't "completely dominant" around the world, by the way. It's not the normal term in France, I'm fairly sure it's not the normal term in Germany (where it used to be "surfing"), and I think other terms are also common in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Japan etc. There is also one Windsurfer class in World Sailing.
