Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..mathew said..Subsonic said..dedekam said..Subsonic said..
I wouldn't go changing to twin cams from 2018 free race sails if youre seeking stability.
Sail design has indeed improved across the board over the years, but a modern free race is still a helluva lot more stable than a modern twin cam. A twin cam will give you earlier (Or should i say easier) planing Size for size, but youll be overpowered on it 5knots sooner than a free race sail.
Is this really true? I thought the main point of cambered sails is the stability they provide?
A stiffer and deeper profile makes it harder to depower, but to me that is not quite the same.
In my experience yes, its absolutely true.
The primary reason for cams, is for stability; it is exactly the reason they are used in Race and Speed sails, as you want to hang on to the biggest sail you can.. even past the point of overpowered/back-winding. Choosing a free-race sail (no-cam) over a cam'ed sail, is wrong [ if your goal is stability ].
I think someones missed something somewhere, and im not sure who. Most of the free race sails i know of are in fact cambered, and are only a brief step away from full race.
A Severne overdrive as an example is a wide pocket 3cam free race. They are practically a race sail, but they lack that tiny bit of top end stability that a 4cam race sail has. Other brands have similar sails in there selection. There are sails like say an NCX which has no cams, and severne turbo which is a twin cam/small luff pocket. but i wouldn't call them free "race". They fall into the category of fast free ride and lack the top end stability that a free race or race sail has.
I think your on the mark here Subsonic ,when i was a young dude everything i brought was 4 cam ,then decent no cam and 2 cam slalom sails came out ,I embrace this as they where easier to use and i was getting older ,but there had a catch ,as now i am into GPS the 2 cam or no cam ,have there limits ,and since gone back to 4 cam for the extra stability .my no cam sails when over powered done what dedekam is talking about ,pulling forward ,i have solved some of the problem by using 100% mast ,but in very overpowered conditions ,I would suggest getting a full race sail ,because basically thats what they are made for .sailing over powered ,the EZZY lion i feel is the best 2 cam i have had without going full race sail ,as they like heaps of downhaul ,all sails do have their limits' I think you just need to measure the wind And this might solve some issues ,but with a Race sail ...you look for that mighty blast ....and embrace the overpowered feeling .hang on and go for it .
with the hand forward i also sail like this .
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..sboardcrazy said..dedekam said..
Hi all,
I have for some time wondered about actually happens when a sails gets really overpowered.
A bit hard to describe, but when caught out with a sail really way too big I have to push the sail hard away from me with the front hand, like the rig wants to slam the mast in my face!
Backhand pressure does not change much, which to me indicates that the harness lines are sufficiently far back on the boom?
Moving the lines might alleviate some of this(?), but my gut feeling is that something else is happening here. I have experienced this with various no cam freeride/freerace sails. Does this occur with cambered sails also?
I find that.. When I'm in survival conditions or a bit worried I end up with my front hand right next to the mast ready to push away on the boom..?
Don't worry about the front hand thing. I dont. I put a video of myself up on another forum and someone commented on my front hand, suggesting I hadn't rigged the sail correctly or I was nervous of being catapulted or some such nonsense. The person who made the comment hadn't gone over 26 knots on iSonics & race sails, I had knicknamed him Captain Slow.
I put it down to having a long arms to body length ratio, putting my lines quite far back so in the gusts its balanced. At 1 point I had tennis elbow and having a straight arm helped with that. It just feels comfortable to put my hands where they are.
Take a look at Andy Laufer here. His hand is nearly at the mast! Quite extreme in this video. In his other videos his hand is still quite far forward.
Someone asked him in the comments on youtube why his hand is so far forward and it was because his lines are so far back. I cant find the comment now. He is ranked 7th on the gps-speedsailing website, so he knows what he is doing. Andy puts up some really good videos of slalom blasting, well worth a look.
Lena Erdil also has her front hand quite far forward.
PHILUK . THAT VID was awesome
thanks for posting .
Select to expand quotesboardcrazy said..duzzi said..sboardcrazy said..duzzi said..sboardcrazy said..dedekam said..
Hi all,
I have for some time wondered about actually happens when a sails gets really overpowered.
A bit hard to describe, but when caught out with a sail really way too big I have to push the sail hard away from me with the front hand, like the rig wants to slam the mast in my face!
Backhand pressure does not change much, which to me indicates that the harness lines are sufficiently far back on the boom?
Moving the lines might alleviate some of this(?), but my gut feeling is that something else is happening here. I have experienced this with various no cam freeride/freerace sails. Does this occur with cambered sails also?
I find that.. When I'm in survival conditions or a bit worried I end up with my front hand right next to the mast ready to push away on the boom..?
I start to think, from what I read, that you are not using the sail as it should be used. A race or free race sail is designed to be used well powered to overpowered, they do not do what you describe. But a big part of the equation is to retain your asset on the board and loading the sail.
Your comment that you move the front hand "right next to mast" is an indication that you are disrupting the proper position of the sail. Similarly with your observation that you do not see the top of the sail twist. It is a bit hard to quantify twist while you are sailing but you need to load the sail to see twist.
What I think is happening is that in windy conditions you unload the sail, and then the inevitable happens: the sail looses the forward vector and it is just a matter of time until it gets back winded.
What do you mean by 'asset'. I've seen that used in overseas posts..do you mean stance?
Re sail twist I'm talking of looking at photos or videos of me sailing not looking up.
When I say my front hand gets close to the mast..it's more a psychological thing. I don't know if I have needed to push (?) but it's there in case I need to .
I don't think I sheet out but I'll take note next time.
I have an adjustable outhaul and use that to extend the sails range..I usually downhaul to specs so the sails rotate and rely on the outhaul on the water.
I can't pull more on unless I come back to the launch..The sails luff is generally loose to the boom.( 3 cammed Overdrives)..
I might try moving my lines back next time and see if that helps..
I was watching one of those videos by Cookie ( I think it was him) and he said in overpowering conditions he moves his lines forward so he's not using the full power of the sails..Though he is on small kit with non cammed light 3.7m sails ..
What happens is that you are getting overpowered by the sail. Your body is lifted up from the proper position and a result the sail is unloaded. You loose speed (even if it feels the opposite!), the sail keeps propelling forward but it does not release any longer. It becomes a much more rigid surface that keeps going but it will either catapult you or get back winded ...
The sail you own is perfectly fine, as most proper freerace sails (cammed or non-cammed) would be. You could take a Severne Overdrive to Luderitz and be ok. Forget line position, hand position and looking at the twist. With a race/freerace you have to commit, and that takes some technique and bit of guts when overpowered. You also need the proper board to go with it ... if you are on a slower freeride board it is not going to work ...
Here I'm on a board 50ltres over my weight in wind gusting to 30kts ..luckily the chop wasn't too big.. It's a freeride non cammed sail - 1st use..
I'm in survival mode crouching down low near the water and weighting the windward rail . The wind was threatening to lift the kit and throw me.. In the upwind bits I'm just trying to keep in one piece/on the water and I only power on when there's a bit of a lull..
Tiring but I had a ball..
I had to use the big board because of the big lulls. .Every now and then I'd swap to the waveboard which was a better fit but the lulls made that a bit dodgy to use..
I've since bought a 90ltre version of the big board which should be perfect in those conditions..
I will not comment on the claimed 30 knots 
but the video confirms my guesses. Your body is yo-yo-ing throughout. It is constantly moving back and forward, toward the sail plane and away from it. You are very far removed from keeping a steady position with respect to the board. Instead the wind lifts you, you loose position, then regain it, then loose it again. That is what is giving you trouble.
It is something that happens, typically when you are caught unprepared by a gust. But in the video you do this almost rhythmically. It might be because you are too upright on the board, and maybe too close to the sail to begin with. The board you are using might help messing things up. Fifty liters above your body weight seems a lot, although you just have some chop in the video.
Again this has nothing to do with the sail and seemingly much to do with the sailor!
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..sboardcrazy said..duzzi said..sboardcrazy said..duzzi said..sboardcrazy said..dedekam said..
Hi all,
I have for some time wondered about actually happens when a sails gets really overpowered.
A bit hard to describe, but when caught out with a sail really way too big I have to push the sail hard away from me with the front hand, like the rig wants to slam the mast in my face!
Backhand pressure does not change much, which to me indicates that the harness lines are sufficiently far back on the boom?
Moving the lines might alleviate some of this(?), but my gut feeling is that something else is happening here. I have experienced this with various no cam freeride/freerace sails. Does this occur with cambered sails also?
I find that.. When I'm in survival conditions or a bit worried I end up with my front hand right next to the mast ready to push away on the boom..?
I start to think, from what I read, that you are not using the sail as it should be used. A race or free race sail is designed to be used well powered to overpowered, they do not do what you describe. But a big part of the equation is to retain your asset on the board and loading the sail.
Your comment that you move the front hand "right next to mast" is an indication that you are disrupting the proper position of the sail. Similarly with your observation that you do not see the top of the sail twist. It is a bit hard to quantify twist while you are sailing but you need to load the sail to see twist.
What I think is happening is that in windy conditions you unload the sail, and then the inevitable happens: the sail looses the forward vector and it is just a matter of time until it gets back winded.
What do you mean by 'asset'. I've seen that used in overseas posts..do you mean stance?
Re sail twist I'm talking of looking at photos or videos of me sailing not looking up.
When I say my front hand gets close to the mast..it's more a psychological thing. I don't know if I have needed to push (?) but it's there in case I need to .
I don't think I sheet out but I'll take note next time.
I have an adjustable outhaul and use that to extend the sails range..I usually downhaul to specs so the sails rotate and rely on the outhaul on the water.
I can't pull more on unless I come back to the launch..The sails luff is generally loose to the boom.( 3 cammed Overdrives)..
I might try moving my lines back next time and see if that helps..
I was watching one of those videos by Cookie ( I think it was him) and he said in overpowering conditions he moves his lines forward so he's not using the full power of the sails..Though he is on small kit with non cammed light 3.7m sails ..
What happens is that you are getting overpowered by the sail. Your body is lifted up from the proper position and a result the sail is unloaded. You loose speed (even if it feels the opposite!), the sail keeps propelling forward but it does not release any longer. It becomes a much more rigid surface that keeps going but it will either catapult you or get back winded ...
The sail you own is perfectly fine, as most proper freerace sails (cammed or non-cammed) would be. You could take a Severne Overdrive to Luderitz and be ok. Forget line position, hand position and looking at the twist. With a race/freerace you have to commit, and that takes some technique and bit of guts when overpowered. You also need the proper board to go with it ... if you are on a slower freeride board it is not going to work ...
Here I'm on a board 50ltres over my weight in wind gusting to 30kts ..luckily the chop wasn't too big.. It's a freeride non cammed sail - 1st use..
I'm in survival mode crouching down low near the water and weighting the windward rail . The wind was threatening to lift the kit and throw me.. In the upwind bits I'm just trying to keep in one piece/on the water and I only power on when there's a bit of a lull..
Tiring but I had a ball..
I had to use the big board because of the big lulls. .Every now and then I'd swap to the waveboard which was a better fit but the lulls made that a bit dodgy to use..
I've since bought a 90ltre version of the big board which should be perfect in those conditions..
I will not comment on the claimed 30 knots but the video confirms my guesses. Your body is yo-yo-ing throughout. It is constantly moving back and forward, toward the sail plane and away from it. You are very far removed from keeping a steady position with respect to the board. Instead the wind lifts you, you loose position, then regain it, then loose it again. That is what is giving you trouble.
It is something that happens, typically when you are caught unprepared by a gust. But in the video you do this almost rhythmically. It might be because you are too upright on the board, and maybe too close to the sail to begin with. The board you are using might help messing things up. Fifty liters above your body weight seems a lot, although you just have some chop in the video.
Again this has nothing to do with the sail and seemingly much to do with the sailor!
I can see what you mean .Well know I know why it happens.
That's an extreme case. I'm usually on a much smaller board or wavegear in that sort of wind strength. That place can be extremely patchy so you need something big for when it switches off.. That was the most consistent wind I've sailed there.
Select to expand quoteTardy said..Subsonic said..mathew said..Subsonic said..dedekam said..Subsonic said..
I wouldn't go changing to twin cams from 2018 free race sails if youre seeking stability.
Sail design has indeed improved across the board over the years, but a modern free race is still a helluva lot more stable than a modern twin cam. A twin cam will give you earlier (Or should i say easier) planing Size for size, but youll be overpowered on it 5knots sooner than a free race sail.
Is this really true? I thought the main point of cambered sails is the stability they provide?
A stiffer and deeper profile makes it harder to depower, but to me that is not quite the same.
In my experience yes, its absolutely true.
The primary reason for cams, is for stability; it is exactly the reason they are used in Race and Speed sails, as you want to hang on to the biggest sail you can.. even past the point of overpowered/back-winding. Choosing a free-race sail (no-cam) over a cam'ed sail, is wrong [ if your goal is stability ].
I think someones missed something somewhere, and im not sure who. Most of the free race sails i know of are in fact cambered, and are only a brief step away from full race.
A Severne overdrive as an example is a wide pocket 3cam free race. They are practically a race sail, but they lack that tiny bit of top end stability that a 4cam race sail has. Other brands have similar sails in there selection. There are sails like say an NCX which has no cams, and severne turbo which is a twin cam/small luff pocket. but i wouldn't call them free "race". They fall into the category of fast free ride and lack the top end stability that a free race or race sail has.
I think your on the mark here Subsonic ,when i was a young dude everything i brought was 4 cam ,then decent no cam and 2 cam slalom sails came out ,I embrace this as they where easier to use and i was getting older ,but there had a catch ,as now i am into GPS the 2 cam or no cam ,have there limits ,and since gone back to 4 cam for the extra stability .my no cam sails when over powered done what dedekam is talking about ,pulling forward ,i have solved some of the problem by using 100% mast ,but in very overpowered conditions ,I would suggest getting a full race sail ,because basically thats what they are made for .sailing over powered ,the EZZY lion i feel is the best 2 cam i have had without going full race sail ,as they like heaps of downhaul ,all sails do have their limits' I think you just need to measure the wind And this might solve some issues ,but with a Race sail ...you look for that mighty blast ....and embrace the overpowered feeling .hang on and go for it .
with the hand forward i also sail like this .
It says the video is private and it won't play?
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
I will not comment on the claimed 30 knots ........
Very Diplomatic duzzi. I will take you queue and I won't comment either.
The fish are biting..
There were definitely some 30kt bullets..anything from 5kts , 10-15kts , 25 plus
Select to expand quotesboardcrazy said..
The fish are biting..
There were definitely some 30kt bullets..anything from 5kts , 10-15kts , 25 plus
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ..... Got a BIG one!
Select to expand quotesailquik said..
Yes. This is a symptom of the C of E moving back (and often up) in the sail by a significant amount.
It is much more prevelant in older sails, camless and soft wave type sails. Is is almost not present in modern cam'ed sails and far less prevelent on well designed modern Camless freeride sails with better designed seam shaping, dynamic twist and far better/stiffer battens.
It's either time to change down a sail size or two, or update your sail quiver.
This explains a lot - I noticed this yesterday with a very old 5m combat wave I took for a spin. Overpowered and no control in 20 plus. Have decided to upgrade the 5m to more modern sail after yesterdays experience.
