Select to expand quoteHenners said..Kitekeeper said..
Cheers Henners!
Nice to see someone as excited as us!
I created this nickname a couple of years ago...probably due for an update 
I'm sure there are plenty more but just some of the things that we are promised from manufactures does not seem to pan out. I have just had to retire a board b/c it was not manufactured correctly, I bought into the hype that it was bullet proof or some crap. The company also promised that some of their gear was backwards compatible only to find it was a half true statement. A die grinder and a bit of time made it true.
I do think that this sort of tech is a "game changer", as long as power is still delivered. But waves have a lot of force and I'm not sure what strength would be needed to keep a sail together in a breaking wave.
I think in the slalom arena is where this sail tech will shine. But I've only seen the pics. And saying all that I am just a newbie compared to lots of the sailors on this forum.
If you wouldn't mind persevering and keeping us all up to date with all the North stuff, that would be great.
Thank you very much.
After five pages of posts frankly I am growing doubtful.
Weight? Weight saving is very hard to quantify, because we do not know the weight/m^2 of the material, and we can only compare manufacturers total weight. And that is unreliable and rather useless. All it takes is to use a thin mast base protector, or a different length and number of battens, or a thinner mast sleeve, and you change plus/minus 200 grams in places that have nothing to do with the material used in the sail.
Performance? I just don't see why, or heard any reason why, a 4.7 3D sail, in which at least 1 square meter is regularly stitched window material, should be performing better than any other sail on the market. What exact advantage would the material give? Especially in a sail that is designed to de-power quickly, and for which stability in overpowered conditions is a secondary concern?
Strength? No idea, and nobody does unless we have some real numbers to compare to other wave sails materials.
Cost? well, there the disadvantage is clear.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..NRDesigner said..
Re the parasitic drag question raised in the post above yours, lets just say that at 35+ knots every little bit counts...
Yes, I'm reminded of the concave deck thread. Some folks riding along at 20-25 kts can't appreciate aspects of their kit that might make a 0.5% difference at 35. It might just be noise at 20 but the difference between advancing to the next round or going home at 35.
Nahhh.
Measurable aero difference? Actual measurable aero difference at 35 knots in 25 knots of turbulent flow at water/ air Intersection that is pretty much unmodelable ( F1 aero is relatively simple when compared to yachting, and just look at the trouble they have with aero...year in year out). On the trailing edge of a foil bouncing up and down, and being sheeted In and out over every lump and bump...?
Functional difference? Well that's entirely different, make a lot of sense functionally. Tool less, easy...good design I like it.
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..
Functional difference? Well that's entirely different, make a lot of sense functionally. Tool less, easy...good design I like it.
Even on the recent NP sails, the bat-cam is hard to pull open to adjust. Even harder with cold fingers often causing a bit of pain.
As the batten tension is rarely adjusted, I'd just prefer the DuoTone allen key design with a smooth simpler design.
Good explanation of the tech. But all that work with the fibres in the sail then you put a window in the power area of the sail ? Very interested to see the race/ slalom range not that it will be in my price range I suspect 
Select to expand quotekato said..
Good explanation of the tech. But all that work with the fibres in the sail then you put a window in the power area of the sail ? Very interested to see the race/ slalom range not that it will be in my price range I suspect
Maybe best to just get rid of the window altogether. Then just mount a mirror out the front to see around the other side.
Select to expand quoteDarrylG
Maybe best to just get rid of the window altogether. Then just mount a mirror out the front to see around the other side.
No one looks anyway do they or is that just kiters 
Select to expand quoteUntil you have the product in your hand and using it or your best mate who is a top notch sailor is telling you about it, then it is entirely speculation.
I might be stirring the pot but I thought this article was interesting www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2021/08/how-long-do-3di-sails-last-several-seasons
If it has no bearing on the new sails please let me know.
Also if you check out surffx's website it looks like the sails are.only a few hundred dollars more.
I'm a second hand sail kind of fella so I am going to be waiting a while until I get to have a try on these sails.
Would very much like to hear from people who own the sail and/or have tried it.
Select to expand quoteHenners said..Until you have the product in your hand and using it or your best mate who is a top notch sailor is telling you about it, then it is entirely speculation.
I might be stirring the pot but I thought this article was interesting www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2021/08/how-long-do-3di-sails-last-several-seasons
If it has no bearing on the new sails please let me know.
Also if you check out surffx's website it looks like the sails are.only a few hundred dollars more.
I'm a second hand sail kind of fella so I am going to be waiting a while until I get to have a try on these sails.
Would very much like to hear from people who own the sail and/or have tried it.
On surffx a 5.3 is actually same price as the duotone superstar 5.3 ($1,599 - ouch).
It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the next few years, if these sails are measurably better and if they last similar or better. Only time is going to tell us.
i'm keen to know what the masts weigh. there is nothing i can find online.
as it stands there is also no sail that's lighter than the north sail. even my sons severne redback is heavier. this is such a game changer.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
as it stands there is also no sail that's lighter than the north sail. even my sons severne redback is heavier. this is such a game changer.
I don't think that the difference is that big, and not much to talk about actually. Their 5.3 (4 battens) weights 2.6kg, which can be compared to the Severne Blade Pro (5 battens) that weights 2.8kg (the 2016 model).
Hardy a game changer by North, the game changed in 2016...
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
as it stands there is also no sail that's lighter than the north sail.
That is not true
Select to expand quotecald said..Henners said..Until you have the product in your hand and using it or your best mate who is a top notch sailor is telling you about it, then it is entirely speculation.
I might be stirring the pot but I thought this article was interesting www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2021/08/how-long-do-3di-sails-last-several-seasons
If it has no bearing on the new sails please let me know.
Also if you check out surffx's website it looks like the sails are.only a few hundred dollars more.
I'm a second hand sail kind of fella so I am going to be waiting a while until I get to have a try on these sails.
Would very much like to hear from people who own the sail and/or have tried it.
On surffx a 5.3 is actually same price as the duotone superstar 5.3 ($1,599 - ouch).
It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the next few years, if these sails are measurably better and if they last similar or better. Only time is going to tell us.
We will know soon enough, They are already sold out in all sail sizes.
Select to expand quoteSurferKris said..Gestalt said..
as it stands there is also no sail that's lighter than the north sail. even my sons severne redback is heavier. this is such a game changer.
I don't think that the difference is that big, and not much to talk about actually. Their 5.3 (4 battens) weights 2.6kg, which can be compared to the Severne Blade Pro (5 battens) that weights 2.8kg (the 2016 model).
Hardy a game changer by North, the game changed in 2016...
Agree the Severne is one of the lightest sail around and weight can be similar, durability ...probably waaay different.
Aslo 2 completely different technologies are, 2016 was definitely a good step tho!Select to expand quoteduzzi said..Henners said..Kitekeeper said..
Cheers Henners!
Nice to see someone as excited as us!
I created this nickname a couple of years ago...probably due for an update
I'm sure there are plenty more but just some of the things that we are promised from manufactures does not seem to pan out. I have just had to retire a board b/c it was not manufactured correctly, I bought into the hype that it was bullet proof or some crap. The company also promised that some of their gear was backwards compatible only to find it was a half true statement. A die grinder and a bit of time made it true.
I do think that this sort of tech is a "game changer", as long as power is still delivered. But waves have a lot of force and I'm not sure what strength would be needed to keep a sail together in a breaking wave.
I think in the slalom arena is where this sail tech will shine. But I've only seen the pics. And saying all that I am just a newbie compared to lots of the sailors on this forum.
If you wouldn't mind persevering and keeping us all up to date with all the North stuff, that would be great.
Thank you very much.
After five pages of posts frankly I am growing doubtful.
Weight? Weight saving is very hard to quantify, because we do not know the weight/m^2 of the material, and we can only compare manufacturers total weight. And that is unreliable and rather useless. All it takes is to use a thin mast base protector, or a different length and number of battens, or a thinner mast sleeve, and you change plus/minus 200 grams in places that have nothing to do with the material used in the sail.
Performance? I just don't see why, or heard any reason why, a 4.7 3D sail, in which at least 1 square meter is regularly stitched window material, should be performing better than any other sail on the market. What exact advantage would the material give? Especially in a sail that is designed to de-power quickly, and for which stability in overpowered conditions is a secondary concern?
Strength? No idea, and nobody does unless we have some real numbers to compare to other wave sails materials.
Cost? well, there the disadvantage is clear.
What do you mean "the total weight is unreliable and useless"? weight is weight, a lighter sail will always feels nicer and more agile?
If you take 200 grams off a board you'll notice the difference, imagine on a sail!
I understand you don't like to read the sales pitch from manufacturers but the North site actually offers few answers to your questions.
There are plenty of info online about the advantage of the 3Di technology on youtube too.
In the video below (scroll till bottom of the page) you can see each sail is "cured" over and hydraulic press that "pre-forms" the sail in the supposed "inflated" shape.
This means the structure the sail in in "neutral" position when filled with wind and under load guaranteeing the sails will keep the correct shape even overpowered, being a composite material there is no stretch, the sail is stiffer and power/depowers much quicker, in overpowered condition the shape is held better and there is no distortion under load.
About durability, well the same technology has been used:
- In the America's cup for ALL the Teams (this already tell something of performances and confidence over this kind of sails)
- In the Volvo Endurance, were Teams navigate each race for over 45.000miles with the same set of sails, is not unusual for some Teams to run the next race with the same set of sails. This Is way more that any rider will ever do with a quiver if sails altogether.
So far 7 different riders around Aus had the chance to try the sail, they were all stocked with what it feels like, maybe you should give it a go yourself then decide what you think?
There is a 4.2 + Ultimate Mast for demo in WA (Windsurfing Perth)
and
a 4.7 with Skinny Pro mast at Surf Fx
northwindsurfing.com/pages/3di
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..Gestalt said..
as it stands there is also no sail that's lighter than the north sail.
That is not true
am keen to know what is lighter. there was a list created a few years ago re light sails. when i checked north is lighter on that list.
Select to expand quoteSurferKris said..Gestalt said..
as it stands there is also no sail that's lighter than the north sail. even my sons severne redback is heavier. this is such a game changer.
I don't think that the difference is that big, and not much to talk about actually. Their 5.3 (4 battens) weights 2.6kg, which can be compared to the Severne Blade Pro (5 battens) that weights 2.8kg (the 2016 model).
Hardy a game changer by North, the game changed in 2016...
severne was a game changer for sure. dont see that as excluding any other brands from also being game changers.
i see the north sail as another step forward.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
am keen to know what is lighter. there was a list created a few years ago re light sails. when i checked north is lighter on that list.
www.facebook.com/286368534793534/posts/5079992782097728/?app=fbl
Agreed with Henners its not just weight, its the fact its pre-shaped. That alone would make it feel better and respond to overpowered conditions better.
However, in a wave sail I wonder if it won't depower on a wave quite as much? Won't want to go flat as its pre-curved? None of the independent very good wavesailors testing it seem to raise that though - so I'm very keen to try one
Select to expand quote40FrothyKnots said..
About durability, well the same technology has been used:
- In the America's cup for ALL the Teams (this already tell something of performances and confidence over this kind of sails)
- In the Volvo Endurance, were Teams navigate each race for over 45.000miles with the same set of sails, is not unusual for some Teams to run the next race with the same set of sails. This Is way more that any rider will ever do with a quiver if sails altogether.
Except that they don't roll the race yacht over a reef break. No doubt the material is better compared to normal yacht sails. Not saying a windsurf sail made from traditional cloth is more durable just pointing out that the abuse sails get when taken into proper wave is punishing. But then I again I guess the vast majority of sail will never see more than a bit of wind chop.
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..Gestalt said..
am keen to know what is lighter. there was a list created a few years ago re light sails. when i checked north is lighter on that list.
www.facebook.com/286368534793534/posts/5079992782097728/?app=fbl
hey thx. unique graphics too.
Select to expand quotestehsegler said..40FrothyKnots said..
About durability, well the same technology has been used:
- In the America's cup for ALL the Teams (this already tell something of performances and confidence over this kind of sails)
- In the Volvo Endurance, were Teams navigate each race for over 45.000miles with the same set of sails, is not unusual for some Teams to run the next race with the same set of sails. This Is way more that any rider will ever do with a quiver if sails altogether.
Except that they don't roll the race yacht over a reef break. No doubt the material is better compared to normal yacht sails. Not saying a windsurf sail made from traditional cloth is more durable just pointing out that the abuse sails get when taken into proper wave is punishing. But then I again I guess the vast majority of sail will never see more than a bit of wind chop.
True that, When I found myself rolling over a dry reef, and I have.. more times than I wanted...gear is my last concern to be honest.
Hard to find something that will withstand that kind of abuse, but as you pointed out most riders use and abuse their gear in "normal" environment, and considering UV plays a big role on durability (especially in aus) we might have some extra benefit with the 3Di tech.
Someone else posted this link about why a 3Di should last longer when compared to other sails material but couldn't find it right now, so here it is again, I guess time will be the final judge tho.
www.northsails.com/sailing/en/2021/08/how-long-do-3di-sails-last-several-seasons#:~:text=If%20they%20took%20outstanding%20care,out%20of%20the%20inshore%20main.
Never did find out the durability of Severne's pros. They've been around for a while. Any comments?
I have a few of the Severne Blade Pro sails, 4.2, 4.7 and 5.3 from 2016. I bought them used in 2018 and these are the best wave sail I've ever had or tried. Yes, they are a little more sensitive/delicate compared to a thick monofilm sail, but it is well worth it. The cloth gives a little different feeling (compared to monofilm) and the low weight makes a big difference in marginal conditions. It has certainly changed my view of lightwind sailing in waves.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Agreed with Henners its not just weight, its the fact its pre-shaped. That alone would make it feel better and respond to overpowered conditions better.
However, in a wave sail I wonder if it won't depower on a wave quite as much? Won't want to go flat as its pre-curved? None of the independent very good wavesailors testing it seem to raise that though - so I'm very keen to try one
I make some sails. All my sails have seam shape in them. I have never had a problem with their luffability or depowering. David Ezzy puts tonnes of seam shaping into he sails and there is a very strong following of his sails, especially his wave sails. Many sail designers put seam shape into the bottom two battens of wave sails, I think severne do. So this shouldn't be something to worry about. Which is probably why there are no comments about it. That being said my favourite current sail has two short battens above the boom, with a Dacron luff panel. Lovely sail to muck about with.
Ben shows the new sails in the beginning here, as well as the race sail prototype at about 1:30
WARNING: hands-on and facts-based post below.
ok, so i've been lucky enough to have had a handful of hours with a new North (4.7 Wave, specifically) in a variety of (non-wave) bump and jump conditions. water was flattish 30-cm chop, disorganised 80cm chop and swells, and 1.2 m somewhat organised swells with chop. winds ranged from steady-ish to very gusty, so i was underpowered, overpowered and just-powered. rode with it on wave, bump & jump and even small "free move" boards. haven't exactly completed my desired testing programme, but i've seen enough.
.and in my opinion, North Windsurfing does deliver with this sail. it's really good! but it's not for everyone.
is it perfect? no. but it's not a half-baked "concept" that's been rushed to market and overhyped.
what's special about it? the feel. it's not easy to describe - though i may try at some point - it just needs to be experienced.
so instead of reading umpteen pages of speculation, conjecture, cynicism or whathaveyou, just try it.
you may like it. or not.
as i said, it's not for everyone.
i'll comment on some of the observations based on my experiences (and facts).
WARNING: more hands-on and facts-based commentary below. Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
After five pages of posts frankly I am growing doubtful.
Weight? Weight saving is very hard to quantify, because we do not know the weight/m^2 of the material, and we can only compare manufacturers total weight. And that is unreliable and rather useless. All it takes is to use a thin mast base protector, or a different length and number of battens, or a thinner mast sleeve, and you change plus/minus 200 grams in places that have nothing to do with the material used in the sail.
not quite. i have two issues with your argument.
the first is the implied premise that it's all about the weight. i realise it's fashionable around here (and internet fora in general) to have a large dose of cynicism about brands and their marketing, but to imply that sailmakers are heavily compromising on critical components affecting stability (like batten choices and luff sleeve materials) to make a "lightest" claim is a bridge too far. no sailmaker i've ever talked to subscribes to that premise. certainly light weight is a design/construction objective, but one that is balanced against range and stability (performance objectives) and durability.
the second is the notion that the "material used in the sail" is uniform throughout. looking at any wave film/ply sail, it's quite evident that a variety of materials of various thicknesses and weights are used. looking at a "membrane" sail, it is also evident that the load bearing fibres are laid out in different densities in different parts of the sail. and looking at a 3Di sail against the light, one can also discern different layups of the materials in different parts of the sail. to summarise, the weight per surface unit of the materials are different throughout the sail.
so sail designers/makers try to balance the materials they use in the locations they need to meet their performance and durability objectives while trying to minimise weight. and batten and luff sleeve choices are critical element of this effort. so yeah, at the end of the day it is "the manufacturers total weight" that we're riding. as for quantification, reliability and usefulness, i'd offer these measured these data (from sails i had laying about):
* North Wave 3Di 4.7: 2.26kg
* Severne Blade Pro (membrane) 4.7: 2.97kg (~700g advantage to the North)
* Duotone SuperHero 4.7: 3.41kg (~1,150g advantage to the North)
[for kicks i looked up the specs of two other membrane sails, a hypothetical 4.7 SV S-1Pro (interpolated to 2.6kg) and a 4.7 Duotone SuperHero M (2.75kg), but as i don't have those available i didn't measure them].
with respect your comments on some details of construction:
* mast protector: the North mast protector is similar in feel to the Duotone, if a bit less extensive; both are more substantial in feel compared to the Severne
* battens: the number is a choice of the sailmaker to meet their objectives; but in all three cases rod battens are used (not sure whether some are glass or epoxy, but i may look into this just for fun).
* mast sleeve: the North has by far the thickest and stiffest luff sleeve of the lot (very obvious when trying to rig). it is clearly evident that the material allows North to build a beefy luff sleeve without incurring a weight penalty (particularly on a wet sail).
by the same token, it is apparent that the material allows North to make other weight-saving choices: for example, the leech of the sail above the boom is finished "cut" instead of having to have a band of stitched tape; the batten pockets are "built-in", etc. Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
Performance? I just don't see why, or heard any reason why, a 4.7 3D sail, in which at least 1 square meter is regularly stitched window material, should be performing better than any other sail on the market. What exact advantage would the material give? Especially in a sail that is designed to de-power quickly, and for which stability in overpowered conditions is a secondary concern?
first, let's get some facts straight.
* the (measured) size of the window is nowhere near a square metre. it's actually not quite 0.6m (and nearly identical in size as that of the SV 4.7 Blade Pro, as membrane sails also have stitched windows).
* if stability in overpowered conditions was a secondary concern, then North failed miserably as the sail is incredibly stable in overpowered gusty conditions. i can't think of a wave or bump & jump sail that has been in the same league in terms of stability. (and yes, it does depower quickly too).
now for your question of what (performance) advantages would the material give. pretty much everyone i let try my membrane Blade Pros finds the feel of the material and weight of the sail to make it a "game changer". but hey, don't take my word for it, just read this quote from another poster in this same thread talking about them (emphasis mine): Select to expand quoteSurferKris said..
I have a few of the Severne Blade Pro sails, 4.2, 4.7 and 5.3 from 2016. I bought them used in 2018 and these are the best wave sail I've ever had or tried. Yes, they are a little more sensitive/delicate compared to a thick monofilm sail, but it is well worth it. The cloth gives a little different feeling (compared to monofilm) and the low weight makes a big difference in marginal conditions. It has certainly changed my view of lightwind sailing in waves.
so, the (measured) weight of the North is lighter than the Blade Pro by about 2/3rds of a kilo, and the feel is both more direct and soft (and stable). where's the performance advantage? it's in what YOU can do with that feel and weight differential (SurferKris has said what it is for him in the case of the Blade Pros).
as i said, the feel is not easily described, but is best experienced. and as i also said, it's not for everyone, so it may very well not be for you.Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
Cost? well, there the disadvantage is clear.
off the mark here.
there is no like for like product in the market now for an apples to apples comparison, so the costs have to be seen in perspective. and to do so i'll carry on with the three sails i've measured.
so for 2022 USD prices, i get:
4.7 Duotone SuperHero: 899 USD
4.7 North Wave 3Di: 999 USD
4.7 SV Blade Pro: 1,450 USD
let's also bring in the masts into the picture, using an EU-made 100% carbon mast across the board (Duotone 400 Platinum SLS $819, North 370 Skinny Pro $499, Severne 400 Red $810). that give us sail/mast prices of:
1,498 USD for the North combo
1,718 USD for the Duotone combo
2,260 USD for the Severne combo
sure, you can go for the North Ultimate mast ($669, or $270 extra) for top of the line performance. then at 1768 USD you're at a push with the Duotone (where you can also put down another $250 extra for a Platinum Aero mast)
so, i'm not seeing the clear disadvantage in cost to the North you mention. even in apples to oranges comparisons. if we were to say, for the sake of argument, that the North in feel/weight/performance is equal to or no better than a Blade Pro, it certainly has a significant cost advantage.
i'm sure there are other film/ply sail with their mast combos out there that can produce a lower overall price.
but as i said, the North is not for everyone.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Agreed with Henners its not just weight, its the fact its pre-shaped. That alone would make it feel better and respond to overpowered conditions better.
it does, but the surprising revelation was how well it does in underpowered conditions. it converts any puff of wind into forward motion very efficiently.Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
However, in a wave sail I wonder if it won't depower on a wave quite as much? Won't want to go flat as its pre-curved? None of the independent very good wavesailors testing it seem to raise that though - so I'm very keen to try one
in backside swell riding it depowers quickly and seemingly fully (looking at the sail at work i have a good idea of how they do it too). you can redirect the board at will and then put the power back on to set up your next move.
Select to expand quoteWindFlyer said..
* North Wave 3Di 4.7: 2.26kg
* Severne Blade Pro (membrane) 4.7: 2.97kg (~700g advantage to the North)
* Duotone SuperHero 4.7: 3.41kg (~1,150g advantage to the North)
You are comparing a pure 4 batten wave sail with a 5 batten power wave sail. A better comparison would be using the S1 Pro. The 4.6 sqm S1 Pro is 2.62kg. That's only a 450 gram difference.Select to expand quote
4.7 SV Blade Pro: 1,450 USD
2,260 USD for the Severne combo
Sorry but I call bull**** on those Severne prices... or your shop is ripping you off. Australia is currently the most expensive market on the planet from what I see on the net. Nothing to do with Severne but supply chain and exchange rate issues. The Severne Pro edition Blade retails for about AU$1,500. RDM Red is AU$1,120. Both prices are inc 10% sales tax. You can get the RDM Blue which is in my opinion probably the better choice for the Pro Edition sails, especially if you are bit heavier for AU$899 inc. tax. These are RRP prices. If you buy more than one sail or an entire rig you should be able to a small discount.
