After reading about Jose becoming a quadriplegic after presumably a sail mast impact during a foiling gybe, I went and bought a helmet I thought would be better for a sail mast impact because it had a double layer shell, WSRI Trident. But when the Trident was tested by Virginia Tech researchers (see link below) it was rated the lowest for "concussion/brain injury", I think that is because the visor may have increased rotational force during a front impact (contacted researchers about that, will report back). Now what is notable is when Jose was hit by the sail mast he apparently did not have any brain injuries, at least none were reported, just the spinal cord injuries. So I also asked the researchers about how applicable their testing methods were for an upper forehead/top of head impact from a sail mast, since they did all their testing from the sides, front, and back. Also, not all helmets with a front visor scored poorly but those that scored well had a front visor on a pivot, so not sure if the visor was the only issue for the Trident, will report back when I hear from the researchers.
Next time I go flying off the board will try to get arms in front of face, just like when wiping out on a big wave while surfing.
www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/whitewater-helmet-ratings.html#!
From the website:
We test the helmet's front, side, and back at two impact energies based on whitewater river flow rates. The lower impact severity represents common impacts in water sports. The higher impact severity represents the types of impacts most commonly resulting in concussions.
Yes, it's obvious that a helmet protects your head/skull/brain but does little for your neck/spinal cord. It could even be hypothesized that helmets can produce more spinal cord damage as they produce a larger fulcrum and leverage on the neck (but save your brain). This is why in motor sports they develop neck cushions, supports into the shoulders and neck below the helmet(Hans device).
A helmet for windsurfing would presumably be to stop you from being knocked out and drowning face down in the water, not to prevent spinal cord injuries resulting in paraplegia/quadriplegia.
Now I did ask the researchers if their testing methods were not applicable to windsurfing and windfoiling that maybe they could test them differently for our sport.
I can imagine them saying that they don't have the funds to worry about such a small sport.
The impact speed of the tests they did appear to be vastly slower than the ones we normally deal with.
I'm currently crashed out due to the effects of a windsurfing head injury about 32 years ago, which made my sinuses into a disaster area, and given the higher rotational forces Sparky mentions and the fact that damage to the face can also be very serious, I'd be concerned about whether wearing a helmet gave a false sense of security. It's a very complex problem.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
I can imagine them saying that they don't have the funds to worry about such a small sport.
The impact speed of the tests they did appear to be vastly slower than the ones we normally deal with.
I'm currently crashed out due to the effects of a windsurfing head injury about 32 years ago, which made my sinuses into a disaster area, and given the higher rotational forces Sparky mentions and the fact that damage to the face can also be very serious, I'd be concerned about whether wearing a helmet gave a false sense of security. It's a very complex problem.
Thanks, and sorry to hear about your accident. No, I do not think of a helmet as security, not after Jose, but just as an added layer, first layer is being aware that it can be a dangerous sport. When I forget that, then I get into trouble. Play it safe and live another day with a healthy body and mind. Just because the helmet absorbs some of the impact does not mean there is not enough energy left over to damage my spine.
So my ancient Gath with small fixed visor turns out to be hopeless as impact protection ... but has been great for warmth, sun protection, surfer's ear protection, and saved me from a few mast bops when waterstarting on wild days
Select to expand quotePeter Hands said..
So my ancient Gath with small fixed visor turns out to be hopeless as impact protection ... but has been great for warmth, sun protection, surfer's ear protection, and saved me from a few mast bops when waterstarting on wild days
Yup, helmets with a fixed visor scored poorly in their tests, guessing front impact from weight causes rotation of helmet.
I still don't get the premise of the initial post. A helmet does absolutely nothing to protect your spinal cord.
Select to expand quotemusorianin said..
I still don't get the premise of the initial post. A helmet does absolutely nothing to protect your spinal cord.
Sure it does, by absorbing "part" of an impact it reduces the force your head applies to your spinal column, instead of 100% of the impact force being transmitted through you head to your spinal column. Jose was reported to have only damaged his C4 vertebra, rest of vertebra were fine, so just needed a helmet to make a reduction in impact energy and C4 may have been able to withstand the impact.
Kinda like how a board nose protector prevents a mast impact from cracking the board.
Not sure that's right. ^^^^^. As a longtime user of a Gath with a full face visor a helmet is designed for impact. Do the maths , particularly moments and look at drag rather than impact. Having crashed at above 40 a few times and broken off the visor , I'd rather have a helmet that is streamlined.
Mind you the biggest risk we take is exposure of the skin and eyes to the sun. 1 in 3 people will get skin cancer.
The biggest worry for me is getting knocked out and drowning . Not the maximum a helmet can handle before breaking my neck . I'm not worried about my visor digging in and grabbing the water . I'm not worried about an anvil either . I just don't want to head butt my mast or board . Any helmet will do and is 100x better than no helmet ? My helmet wearing moment was when I slowly , simply fell in the water after a fluffed jybe and thought the sail was dropping next to me . Instead , it kind of swung sideways and hit me on the side of my head . It was a realitively light tap that kinda , sorta , knocked me out for a couple seconds . Its not fun waking up under water .It made me realise how easy it is to get knocked out .I now wear a helmet and i dont care how gay i look .
It was sad to hear about Jose.
if you want to maximise on reducing the risks of a serious head injury, stick a decent modern bicycle helmet on. They're made to crumple and absorb impact (and yes you'll need to throw it away if it cops an impact). Hard shell helmets are a good compromise between longevity and saving your head from serious injury, but i'm not surprised they rank low on actual protection, they tend to stay intact when hit.
I'd say a spinal cord injury is a damn unlucky occurrence in windsurfing.
(and keep in mind, you're going to find it hard to protect yourself from every single angle of impact too. I'm yet to see a helmet that'll save you from a hit that jars your head in a bad direction)
kato, yes built-in visor on Trident is a liability, on my Chaos I use a flexible add-on visor, but prefer built in. Will just have be careful about not hitting the water face forward, which I have done in the past.
Subsonic, the Trident outer shell is designed to crush on impact, that is why I got it. I was doing a foiling gybe and just when I flipped the sail a gust hit me, threw mast right at me hitting my elbow bone with a cracking sound. Think that is what happened to Jose except mast hit him on the forehead.
The other day I saw a cyclist with an add on large sun brim that somehow attached to her helmet . It was a lightweight meshy kind of thing that looked waterproof . Stiff enough to hold shape , but would easily crumple in a crash . Could be a good thing . It was kinda like the one below but mesh and not as bulky attaching to the helmet .
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..musorianin said..
I still don't get the premise of the initial post. A helmet does absolutely nothing to protect your spinal cord.
Sure it does, by absorbing "part" of an impact it reduces the force your head applies to your spinal column, instead of 100% of the impact force being transmitted through you head to your spinal column. Jose was reported to have only damaged his C4 vertebra, rest of vertebra were fine, so just needed a helmet to make a reduction in impact energy and C4 may have been able to withstand the impact.
Kinda like how a board nose protector prevents a mast impact from cracking the board.
By that logic your best helmet would be out of, say, 2 inch polystyrene with no hard shell
I've always used helmets sailing and have had two major incidents where they have saved me
My first I used a Gath which I smashed with a mast impact to the back of the head, cracked the helmet from the back to the front and left me with a dent in my head (literally) That one i know saved my life as I came close to being knocked out. I sent Gath an email of thanks for their product and promptly bought another one.
My last one I was using a NP helmet which looked like it is a badge engineered kayaking helmet, it has an EN impact rating an a more energy absorbing foam internally.
This one I got catapulted tumbled then ended up spearing into the water and hitting my head on the bottom resulting in a major crunching in my neck.
3 hours in ER sandbagged with neck brace staring up at the ceiling quietly crapping my self I found out that that I'd compressed a vetebrea
and shattered away a lot of arthritis (the gift which keeps on giving from a drunk driver).
Without the helmet I doubt whether I'd be able to type this or even have read this thread. I also think that if I'd been using the Gath helmet with it's harder foam I'd still be in a worse place than the NP.
Don't knock the safety ratings there's a lot of research into how they work.
Just my personal experience
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
presumably a sail mast impact during a foiling gybe,
There is a lot of speculation in this thread about the cause of his injuries and I dont feel comfortable adding to them but.....
To fix a problem you have to know exactly what the problem is.
What if the mast impact wasnt on his head but he fell awkwardly with his neck on the mast/boom/board and it was body weight which did the damage? Would a chunky helmet increase that likelihood?
What is the speed in a foiling gybe? Race foil or slow freeride foil?
I remember from my motorbike basic training the discussion on types of helmet construction, polycarbonate v composite fibreglass/carbon/kevlar and resulting injuries. Polycarbonate shelled helmets resulted in more fractured skulls as the shell cracked. Composite had fewer fractured skulls but more neck injuries. That was in 1991 so things might have changed.
What type of sailing do you do? I sail a lot faster on my freerace kit than foil/wave, so dislike any peak or sticky out bit on the helmet (even thick padding where the shell isnt snug to my head) as that could catch in the water and twist my neck.
My main concern foiling is landing on the sharp edge or it running over my head if I fall off and dont hold onto the boom. A thin skinned cycle helmet would be useless, I've seen pictures of foils embedded in boards.
I had wipeout after hitting rope at speed and water was forced onto my ear, causing problems. I want a helmet to completely cover my ears.
Some helmets dont go down far enough at the back of the head, comparing my cycle helmet to windsurf helmet there is a noticeable difference.
As Kato said, there is skin cancer and the protection helmets give.
How long is the helmet likely to last in salt water, does off water accidental damage render it ineffective? Drop a motorcycle helmet on concrete and have you damaged the shell which you cant see? They recommend you replace them, but thats a different kettle of fish. Same for watersports helmets?
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..Sandman1221 said..
presumably a sail mast impact during a foiling gybe,
There is a lot of speculation in this thread about the cause of his injuries and I dont feel comfortable adding to them but.....
To fix a problem you have to know exactly what the problem is.
What if the mast impact wasnt on his head but he fell awkwardly with his neck on the mast/boom/board and it was body weight which did the damage? Would a chunky helmet increase that likelihood?
What is the speed in a foiling gybe? Race foil or slow freeride foil?
I remember from my motorbike basic training the discussion on types of helmet construction, polycarbonate v composite fibreglass/carbon/kevlar and resulting injuries. Polycarbonate shelled helmets resulted in more fractured skulls as the shell cracked. Composite had fewer fractured skulls but more neck injuries. That was in 1991 so things might have changed.
What type of sailing do you do? I sail a lot faster on my freerace kit than foil/wave, so dislike any peak or sticky out bit on the helmet (even thick padding where the shell isnt snug to my head) as that could catch in the water and twist my neck.
My main concern foiling is landing on the sharp edge or it running over my head if I fall off and dont hold onto the boom. A thin skinned cycle helmet would be useless, I've seen pictures of foils embedded in boards.
I had wipeout after hitting rope at speed and water was forced onto my ear, causing problems. I want a helmet to completely cover my ears.
Some helmets dont go down far enough at the back of the head, comparing my cycle helmet to windsurf helmet there is a noticeable difference.
As Kato said, there is skin cancer and the protection helmets give.
How long is the helmet likely to last in salt water, does off water accidental damage render it ineffective? Drop a motorcycle helmet on concrete and have you damaged the shell which you cant see? They recommend you replace them, but thats a different kettle of fish. Same for watersports helmets?
Hess said Jose did it hooking a gybe, and he has symmetrical paralysis so spinal cord was damaged uniformly, that makes a mast to head impact the most likely scenario IMO.. Like I said, I had a gust throw the mast at me in the middle of a foiling gybe but it hit my elbow. Wonder if the extended bottom on the Hydra increases the likelihood of wind hatcheting the mast at you.
Select to expand quoteImax1 said..
The other day I saw a cyclist with an add on large sun brim that somehow attached to her helmet . It was a lightweight meshy kind of thing that looked waterproof . Stiff enough to hold shape , but would easily crumple in a crash . Could be a good thing . It was kinda like the one below but mesh and not as bulky attaching to the helmet .
It would work ONLY UNDER 6kt....otherwise it will fly away hahahaha
Under my Chaos helmet I use a stand alone flexible visor that wraps around my head and Velcro's on the backside, it works but the once the nylon fabric gets wet it drips until dry.
According to the researchers at Virginia Tech, the visor on the Trident was not the reason it received a lower score than the Chaos, in the front impact test they do not hit the visor. They also said that the protruding visor was an issue when hitting the ground, since it can grab, but "was not an issue with water", do not know if they taking into account the speeds that we go on water. At high speeds water can certainly grab visor, but still not like hard ground would.
And for mast impacts on the top of the helmet, they said to look for a helmet with padding inside the top of the helmet.
A few years back experienced a concussion while windsurfing. Serious enough that after collapsing on the beach they carted me away in an ambulance to the ER. Not the first concussion experienced, but the first windsurfing. No helmet, not a scratch on the head. The guess was my previous history of concussions combined with too rapid deceleration was the cause.
Starting this season I wear a helmet all the time. Foil or fin. Light or heavy air. Good thing. I bonked my head either on the mast, boom or whatever couple times this season. JMHO, watersports helmets designed to reduce blunt force impacts work. How effective in reducing concussions? No idea. I think the tech is probably at the level of early gen. plastic american football helmets. MIPs and WaveCell tech are supposedly an improvement for reducing the chance of a concussion. Have one of the lighter weight MIPs skateboard (certified USA& EU) helmets. It's still on the heavy side vs. lighter weight conventional. Wouldn't use it for windsurfing. Like my lightweight feel of the Gath.
I'm not too sure that helmets don't help concussion . I could hit my head with a hammer quite hard with a helmet on without feeling much . Do that without the helmet and I'd be in a lot of trouble .
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..musorianin said..
I still don't get the premise of the initial post. A helmet does absolutely nothing to protect your spinal cord.
Sure it does, by absorbing "part" of an impact it reduces the force your head applies to your spinal column, instead of 100% of the impact force being transmitted through you head to your spinal column. Jose was reported to have only damaged his C4 vertebra, rest of vertebra were fine, so just needed a helmet to make a reduction in impact energy and C4 may have been able to withstand the impact.
Kinda like how a board nose protector prevents a mast impact from cracking the board.
What utter rubbish you dribble.
First time SUPing in the ocean 10 years ago, 1st paddle out, and the board gets dumped on me. Board lands fin first on the back of my head. The Gath lid saved me.
In motorcycle safety, they say you can die from a fatal head injury at 40km/h. Not much at all.
Select to expand quote
A properly made helmet can help protect against concussions. Obviously, if you are going fast enough and hit a hard object with your head and helmet you can get a concussion, spinal cord damage, or even die.
Shall we not pretend that "experts" in this windsurf forum are going to answer these complex questions? Concussion is often the result of the brain severely "wobbling" inside the skull and the damage is from the brain itself into the inside of the skull. So, yes a helmet may provide some impact protection for concussion, but if the movement is large enough, and quick enough then damage can occur. Potentially damage can also occur with a larger "shake" of the head like in shaken baby syndrome or in a whiplash type movement with no impact. But is probably greater when there is an impact. Often the brain injury is on the other side to the impact (Contrecoup).
To prevent concussion you need to "decelerate" the impact so the brain doesn't slam into the skull as noted by Sparky. You would need something like those bubble soccer balls for your head...
Here is what I am thinking about, a mast impact on my head. We know from Jose that that impact had enough energy to crush his C4 vertebrae, but no mention of a concussion. So I just need my helmet to absorb part of that energy, to reduce it to a level that my vertebrae can withstand without being crushed. That is something the researchers at Virginia Tech may be able to quantify, how much energy does a helmet absorb from an impact, and how much energy is needed to crush a vertebrae.
I would take a concussion over a crushed C4 any day.
