New R.A.F. sail very hard to rotate

Hi

I just bought a brand new RRD X-TRA 7 m freeride sail to use with my Gun Sails 460 cm 75% cc mast. I had for some years.
The mast is cc, 25 ICMS
I rigged the sail on my backyard, awaiting warmer weather and there is something odd with the rotation, as explained below.
First, here is how I rigged it

Outhaul: the specs call for 203 cm +/- boom extension. With this extension, I pull the sail end to about 5 cm from the boom clew. According to the common instructions, and my previous experience this outhaul tension should OK because the sail can be pushed down by hand to almost touch the boom, indicating that there is enough shape for lighter winds, if needed.
With this outhaul, the sail is however hard to rotate by itself. I can do it only by hand. It rotates better ( by hand) if I give more tension on the outhaul, but then it loses shape , becoming considerably flatter, i.e. the opposite problem: too flat for light winds.

D/haul: I pull the d/haul until the sail foot is about two fingers thickness from the MF pulley and the leech becomes loose until the 1st batten above the boom. I don't know if this is too much d/haul. but if I d/haul less, the sail becomes even harder to rotate, even by hand..

I wonder if the rotation problem can be corrected by adjusting the batten's tension. One thing that struck me when I first lay the sail on the turf before tensioning outhaul and downhaul is that the batten protrude about 2 cm behind the mast. Either they are too long or they have perhaps to to be adjusted. Would this help the rotation?

Thanks for the comments

Francone

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Francone said..
Hi

I just bought a brand new RRD X-TRA 7 m freeride sail to use with my Gun Sails 460 cm 75% cc mast. I had for some years.
The mast is cc, 25 ICMS
I rigged the sail on my backyard, awaiting warmer weather and there is something odd with the rotation, as explained below.
First, here is how I rigged it

Outhaul: the specs call for 203 cm +/- boom extension. With this extension, I pull the sail end to about 5 cm from the boom clew. According to the common instructions, and my previous experience this outhaul tension should OK because the sail can be pushed down by hand to almost touch the boom, indicating that there is enough shape for lighter winds, if needed.
With this outhaul, the sail is however hard to rotate by itself. I can do it only by hand. It rotates better ( by hand) if I give more tension on the outhaul, but then it loses shape , becoming considerably flatter, i.e. the opposite problem: too flat for light winds.

D/haul: I pull the d/haul until the sail foot is about two fingers thickness from the MF pulley and the leech becomes loose until the 1st batten above the boom. I don't know if this is too much d/haul. but if I d/haul less, the sail becomes even harder to rotate, even by hand..

I wonder if the rotation problem can be corrected by adjusting the batten's tension. One thing that struck me when I first lay the sail on the turf before tensioning outhaul and downhaul is that the batten protrude about 2 cm behind the mast. Either they are too long or they have perhaps to to be adjusted. Would this help the rotation?

Thanks for the comments

Francone

Do the mast specs suit the sail?

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sboardcrazy said..

Francone said..
Hi

I just bought a brand new RRD X-TRA 7 m freeride sail to use with my Gun Sails 460 cm 75% cc mast. I had for some years.
The mast is cc, 25 ICMS
I rigged the sail on my backyard, awaiting warmer weather and there is something odd with the rotation, as explained below.
First, here is how I rigged it

Outhaul: the specs call for 203 cm +/- boom extension. With this extension, I pull the sail end to about 5 cm from the boom clew. According to the common instructions, and my previous experience this outhaul tension should OK because the sail can be pushed down by hand to almost touch the boom, indicating that there is enough shape for lighter winds, if needed.
With this outhaul, the sail is however hard to rotate by itself. I can do it only by hand. It rotates better ( by hand) if I give more tension on the outhaul, but then it loses shape , becoming considerably flatter, i.e. the opposite problem: too flat for light winds.

D/haul: I pull the d/haul until the sail foot is about two fingers thickness from the MF pulley and the leech becomes loose until the 1st batten above the boom. I don't know if this is too much d/haul. but if I d/haul less, the sail becomes even harder to rotate, even by hand..

I wonder if the rotation problem can be corrected by adjusting the batten's tension. One thing that struck me when I first lay the sail on the turf before tensioning outhaul and downhaul is that the batten protrude about 2 cm behind the mast. Either they are too long or they have perhaps to to be adjusted. Would this help the rotation?

Thanks for the comments

Francone

Do the mast specs suit the sail?

This is the whole point. As I said in my post ,the Gun Sails mast specs are : ICMS 25, constant curve, 460 cm , 75% carbon, but there is absolutely no info from the RRD site about the mast specs required to match their sail.. The guy of the store I bought the sail knew that I already had a mast. If the sail was supposed to match a mast with some specific specs, he would have told me, but he didn't. So I supposed it was OK.
I know , matching mast and sail is the ideal solution, but very few people do it,. There might be some trade-off in using a different mast from another manufacturer, but, if people do it, I assume that in most cases there is no major draw-back.

Francone

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Francone said..
This is the whole point. As I said in my post ,the Gun Sails mast specs are : ICMS 25, constant curve, 460 cm , 75% carbon, but there is absolutely no info from the RRD site about the mast specs required to match their sail.. The guy of the store I bought the sail knew that I already had a mast. If the sail was supposed to match a mast with some specific specs, he would have told me, but he didn't. So I supposed it was OK.
I know , matching mast and sail is the ideal solution, but very few people do it,. There might be some trade-off in using a different mast from another manufacturer, but, if people do it, I assume that in most cases there is no major draw-back.

Francone

Like Mark wrote, if its the later compact travel sail which requires a 370 mast and extender, your mast is far too stiff for the sail. A 370 mast is IMCS 17. equipment.robertoriccidesigns.com/products/compact-x-tra-y25/
It could be the guy in the store wanted to shift an unusual sail, or he might have thought you were aware of the mast requirements.
So first things first, which version of the sail is it?
A quick google tells me that they recommend an RDM on the older 2019 sails.

You say very few people match masts to sail, but I think most do.

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Francone said..
One thing that struck me when I first lay the sail on the turf before tensioning outhaul and downhaul is that the batten protrude about 2 cm behind the mast. Either they are too long or they have perhaps to to be adjusted.

Not sure what you are trying to say there. With the recommended downhaul tension you should have a loose leach and battens will overlap with the mast. Applying outhaul will reduce the overlap but the battens should always (in non-special sails) overlap with the mast.

According to Unifiber the RRD masts are more flextop compared to Gunsails masts.

From your boom specs (203cm) you might have the extra-x (Mk6) from 2019, with the recommended mast being RDM?

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Francone said..

musorianin said..
First thought try more downhaul, you usually want the looseness down further along the leech, although every sail is different
Battens won't be "too long" in a new sail. They should sit about half way across the mast diameter, give or take. If you play with tension make sure you don't over do it. Max tension is when wrinkles along batten pocket just, just disappear, no more.
Second thought is our could be a sail/mast compatibility problem.

Thanks
1. ref. Downhaul: the leech is already loose down to the first batten above the boom. I thought it was enough, perhaps even too much, but perhaps I'm wrong. Should I loosen the leech further down, past the 1st batten above the boom? Then it will be practically the whole leech length to be loose!

2. Ref Batten: with the sail laying on the turf, before tensioning out-haul and down-haul, the central-lower battens, don't sit just half-way across the mast diameter, but protrude about 2 cm or more beyond the mast.. I'll attach a snapshot as soon as the wheather allows.

3. If it is a sail/mast compatibility issue, does the fact of rotating the sail by hand significantly affect the performance of the board and sail?

Francone

Mark _australia said..
The problem here is if you bought a Compact X-tra??? If so you bought a weird sail designed for its own mast. It is the fold in half sail, all sizes rig on a 370 - strange concept. The 7m needs a 370 with 60cm extension so it will have very strange behaviour on a normal mast.

Or did you but the normal X-tra from a couple years ago?

If its the normal one - two fingers gap is very under downhauled.
Are the numbers on your extension correct ? Some need more then the actual numbers as pulleys aren't at zero or you can't get the pulleys touching.
Once you get enough downhaul the mast bends more so its easier to get enough outhaul

Thanks Mark
No, luckily it is not the Compact X-TRA package. It is the full fledge , regular, 7 m sail, in one piece.

Regarding the insufficient d/haul:
The way I set it, i.e. by leaving a 2 fingers distance between the bottom sail and the MF pulley, the leech is already loose all the way down to the 1st batten above the boom. I thought it was OK, perhaps even too much! Or maybe I'm wrong!
Please note that I didn't think it necessary to give any extension to the MF, because the luff of the sail ( 458 cm) is the same as the mast length ( 460 cm). I could still pull down a couple of cm until the sail bottom is close to the MF pulley, but it would be very little gain.

The only way to substantially increase the d/haul tension would be to give some extension to the MF, but I wonder if I need to, because, as stated above, with the two fingers distance the down/haul has already substantially loosened the leech all the way down to the 1st batten above the boom. Perhaps the rotation issue is due to a suboptimal compatibility between sail and mast. I hope it is not a major inconvenient, if all that I have to do is pushing the sail by hand in light winds, when I need rotation.
Apparently some people do it.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions

Francone

Apply downhaul, until the end of the batten, above the boom, is in line with the front of the mast.

Only solution: Try another mast and see how it sets. The shop that you bought it from may have some demo or second hand gear. Ask them if you can rig it and get the guy from the shop who sold you the sail or mast to come and have a look.

Its highly likely the mast thats not working with the luff curve of the sail.

I think now we might need to define "easy rotation".
If the leech is loose all the way down and the batten above the boom is level with the front of the mast it all sounds OK. Yes there is a slight curve mismatch but not much.

Francone this sail is designed for 20kn fully powered freeride. Do you have that much wind and it still won't rotate pully powered and with a bit of a pump?
No insult but if you're used to an old windsurfer sail or a wavesail set too flat from learning u may not be used to how a rigid deep-draft freeride needs to pop around the mast?

Going back to the very start - how do you know its hard to rotate if you only rigged it in the yard? Has it been tried in the wind lets say at least 15kn

The bend curve is not that different so:
If its loose leech down to the batten above the boom, and batten above the boom sits roughly level with the front of the mast (or a little bit back from the front edge) when its just rigged and lying on the ground
Then its pretty damn good..... so what's wrong?

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sboardcrazy said..

Francone said..
Hi

I just bought a brand new RRD X-TRA 7 m freeride sail to use with my Gun Sails 460 cm 75% cc mast. I had for some years.
The mast is cc, 25 ICMS
I rigged the sail on my backyard, awaiting warmer weather and there is something odd with the rotation, as explained below.
First, here is how I rigged it

Outhaul: the specs call for 203 cm +/- boom extension. With this extension, I pull the sail end to about 5 cm from the boom clew. According to the common instructions, and my previous experience this outhaul tension should OK because the sail can be pushed down by hand to almost touch the boom, indicating that there is enough shape for lighter winds, if needed.
With this outhaul, the sail is however hard to rotate by itself. I can do it only by hand. It rotates better ( by hand) if I give more tension on the outhaul, but then it loses shape , becoming considerably flatter, i.e. the opposite problem: too flat for light winds.

D/haul: I pull the d/haul until the sail foot is about two fingers thickness from the MF pulley and the leech becomes loose until the 1st batten above the boom. I don't know if this is too much d/haul. but if I d/haul less, the sail becomes even harder to rotate, even by hand..

I wonder if the rotation problem can be corrected by adjusting the batten's tension. One thing that struck me when I first lay the sail on the turf before tensioning outhaul and downhaul is that the batten protrude about 2 cm behind the mast. Either they are too long or they have perhaps to to be adjusted. Would this help the rotation?

Thanks for the comments

Francone

Do the mast specs suit the sail?

This is the whole point. As I said in my post ,the Gun Sails mast specs are : ICMS 25, constant curve, 460 cm , 75% carbon, but there is absolutely no info from the RRD site about the mast specs required to match their sail.. The guy of the store I bought the sail knew that I already had a mast. If the sail was supposed to match a mast with some specific specs, he would have told me, but he didn't. So I supposed it was OK.
I know , matching mast and sail is the ideal solution, but very few people do it,. There might be some trade-off in using a different mast from another manufacturer, but, if people do it, I assume that in most cases there is no major draw-back.

Francone

Select to expand quote

Mark _australia said..
I think now we might need to define "easy rotation".
If the leech is loose all the way down and the batten above the boom is level with the front of the mast it all sounds OK. Yes there is a slight curve mismatch but not much.

Francone this sail is designed for 20kn fully powered freeride. Do you have that much wind and it still won't rotate pully powered and with a bit of a pump?
No insult but if you're used to an old windsurfer sail or a wavesail set too flat from learning u may not be used to how a rigid deep-draft freeride needs to pop around the mast?

Thank you Mark and you all
for analyzing the problem, in an attempt to find the cause and a possibly a solution.
No , I havent't taken out the sail on the water, yet. I only deployed it on the courtyard. The wind was at times gusty, but definitely far from 20 kn .
This is really the first new , late technology sail I ever bought. My battle horse has been so far a 6.5 m NP Garda sail from the 2000's, a bit spent but enough for me in light winds . The Gardas , just like others I had, did, however, rotate much more easily with the least wind and/or by popping the sail.. I guess it was also because the luff pocket was comfortably large., whereas in my new RRD the mast fits rather tightly in the luff. especially towards the top. I really have to work it in by hand rather laboriously.

If, as you say, the sail is designed for 20 kn winds fully powered, in order to rotate properly, then the problem is more with my expectations than with the sail itself . Unfortunately, 20 kn winds happen very rarely here. It is mostly in 12-15 kn. I would hope that rotating the sail by pushing it with the hand or pumping is not a major draw-back.

Leaving the rotation issue aside, in the hope that the wind (or my hands!) will take care of it, the only issue I'm faced is that I cannot really trim the sail for light winds ( more shape) because to do so, I'd have to reduce the outhaul, but then the battens will move further back and the rotation will be even more difficult. ( I cannot compensate with more down/haul, because , as explained, it is already set at the maximum ( 1st batten above the boom).
The best is to try it out on the water. In the meantime, I'll pay a visit to the store and ask them to rig the sail on my mast or another mast to see if there is a difference.
Thanks for your suggestions

Francone

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PhilUK said..

Francone said..

2. Ref Batten: with the sail laying on the turf, before tensioning out-haul and down-haul, the central-lower battens, don't sit just half-way across the mast diameter, but protrude about 2 cm or more beyond the mast.. I'll attach a snapshot as soon as the wheather allows.

3. If it is a sail/mast compatibility issue, does the fact of rotating the sail by hand significantly affect the performance of the board and sail?

Francone

2) irrelevant. Its where they sit after downhauling/outhauling which matters.

3) Yes, a lot. If the sail is designed for a short 370 mast and you rig it on a stiff 460, then the leech wont twist off when a gust hits. For a freeride sail like that, the leech shouldnt be loose down to the boom.

Ref. 3: the sail specs call for a 460 cm mast, not a 370 mast. This is , I believe , the spec for the X-tra Compact package, with the 370 cm mast split in 3 sections .

Francone

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Francone said..

PhilUK said..

Francone said..

2. Ref Batten: with the sail laying on the turf, before tensioning out-haul and down-haul, the central-lower battens, don't sit just half-way across the mast diameter, but protrude about 2 cm or more beyond the mast.. I'll attach a snapshot as soon as the wheather allows.

3. If it is a sail/mast compatibility issue, does the fact of rotating the sail by hand significantly affect the performance of the board and sail?

Francone

2) irrelevant. Its where they sit after downhauling/outhauling which matters.

3) Yes, a lot. If the sail is designed for a short 370 mast and you rig it on a stiff 460, then the leech wont twist off when a gust hits. For a freeride sail like that, the leech shouldnt be loose down to the boom.

Ref. 3: the sail specs call for a 460 cm mast, not a 370 mast. This is , I believe , the spec for the X-tra Compact package, with the 370 cm mast split in 3 sections .

Francone

You didnt say which version you had, I think it was assumed you had the latest version as the sail is brand new.

I'm not sure where you get that "very few people" match mast and sail, that's completely false. Every half descent windsurfer uses a mast which is appropriate for their sail. Not necessarily the same brand but a similar curve yes 100%.

I would not expect that sail to perform well sub-planing in 12-15kts. You need something more like a raceboard or foiling sail.

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Francone said..

Thanks Mark
No, luckily it is not the Compact X-TRA package. It is the full fledge , regular, 7 m sail, in one piece.

Regarding the insufficient d/haul:
The way I set it, i.e. by leaving a 2 fingers distance between the bottom sail and the MF pulley, the leech is already loose all the way down to the 1st batten above the boom. I thought it was OK, perhaps even too much! Or maybe I'm wrong!
Please note that I didn't think it necessary to give any extension to the MF, because the luff of the sail ( 458 cm) is the same as the mast length ( 460 cm). I could still pull down a couple of cm until the sail bottom is close to the MF pulley, but it would be very little gain.

ok, colour me confused.

you say you have the full (non-compact) 7m sail (which would be MK6 or earlier).
yet you say the sail luff (for rigging) is 458cm.?

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PhilUK said..

www.robertoriccidesigns.com/equipment/windsurf/sails/x-tra-mk6-x-tra-x-mk6/#specs

as the link above notes, the luff for the sail you claim to have is actually 469cm.

so if you have the MK6 (or earlier) sail, why are you trying to rig based on the compact sail's specs, where the luff for the 7.0 is indeed 458?:
equipment.robertoriccidesigns.com/products/compact-x-tra-y27/

so, which sail do you actually have, and are you actually following the recommended downhaul specs for starters?

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PhilUK said..
According to the 2019 Unifiber chart, RRD is a Constant Curve/Flex top, Gun is CC. 2 boxes difference in their chart.
www.unifiber.net/unifiber-masts-selector-2019-v1
In the past have used masts which were 1 box away from the recommended, and no real issues, although I could spot the rigging difference. Ezzy sail & Simmer mast.
With your Gun mast RRD sail, that combination is the other way around to what I had. To get the correct looseness on the leech, I guess it would require more downhaul than usual, as the top of the mast wouldnt flex enough. The bottom part of the mast would be too soft, and this doesnt usually result in a sail which is hard to rotate. But that could be due to the SDM mast being used taking all the slack from the luff tube and being to tight.

This reply may answer other points raised by somebody else.

Regarding the 458 cm mast spec, Sorry, I was wrong. I was looking at the Compact X-TRA specs on the RRD site. (equipment.robertoriccidesigns.com/products/x-tra-y27/), but my sail is the X-TRA X-Y27 model.( not to be confused with X-TRA RIG, sold with the boom and a RDM 430 mast.)

The specs of the X-TRA X-Y27 show 466 luff ( not 469) and a required 460 sdm/rdm mast.
I didn't think that the luff was 466, though, because the mast is 460 cm and, with the current d/haul, the luff already comes down almost flush with the MF pulley. If the sail luff were 466 cm, I would have to extend the MF by about 6 cm, and the d/haul may be too much.
In addition, with the current d/haul setting, as already previously mentioned , the leach becomes loose well below the 1st top panels, down to the 1st batten above the boom. Any more MF extension and the d/haul may become too much.

Anyway, as soon as it stops snowing and we get more seasonal temperatures, I'll rig the sail again , with some more MF extension. And see what happens.

Regarding the mast stiffness, according to the Unifiber chart, the 2021 RRD sails are constant curve. Only the previous 2019 models were borderline cc/flextop ( 2 green boxes for CC and 1 red box for Flex). I am sure that my sail is not the 2019 model, anyway, but even so, the difference should be marginal.

Anyway, I've been able to significantly improve the rotation by slightly increasing the tension of the two lower battens. By doing so, the battens are now more curved, giving more shape to the lower sail. Also, the battens have slightly moved back from the mast, enough, to ease the rotation. Not perfect ( whatever it means) but better than before! ,

I think this dispels some of the confusion I have inadvertently sown, partly because of my experience level and also, because it is not easy for the non-professional , more or less occasional windsurfer t o navigate in the windsurfing... waters: a lot of never ending technological details, designs being continuously changed from year to year by manufacturers, " portable" compact packages.." etc.
I had to look three times at the RRD site to identify the correct model of my sail and find its specs!

Thank you

Francone

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SurferKris said..
I haven't seen any sail tuning from RRD specifically for your sail, but the tuning should be fairly general and you can see here what too look for in terms of tuning the downhaul setting (for the RRD Evolution sails):

Thank you so much!
I had been looking for RRD tuning instruction without success. Your video is very helpful! For one thing, I notice that the RRD 6.5, very similar to my 7.0 X-TRA calls for more d/haul tension than I thought, because on the video the leach appears to be loose down to first batten above the boom and even a little past it., whereas the rule-of-thumb for d/haul on all the tuning videos I have seen so far show a loose leach only down to the 1st two top panels, of course subject to further adjustments , but not much beyond...
I'll take it from there and see how it works on the water.

Francone