Select to expand quoteevlPanda said..
^ all that said I prefer to call up SurfFX and talk to a human.
Hello, windsurfing Dept. please
Hello
Hello. I want a thingy, about this big.
Ah, we have thingies... let me just check... we have this big and this big, and we have the new thingies in too.
The new thingies?
People are really liking the new thingies, and they're the same price.
Ok sweet - a new thingy
OK, what's the delivery address... and credit card... done.
[arrives next day]
It's like artificial intelligence.
I've worked in ERP for 15 years and sometimes I reckon a piece of paper works better for information. Machines are cold and autistic.
An email is even better.
Select to expand quotewind012 said..
(b) you bought 2 sails, mast & boom ... so was it current season and did you pay full RRP?
I think you are just seeing part of the picture here. From a retailer's perspective a good online presence is a a) 24hour shop front which extends their hours where consumers could buy from them and b) allowing them to sell to consumers who are not in close proximity.
I see your point on newest season gear pricing, but at least you should at least list what you have to that people looking to buy know that they can get it from you. It would be stupid not to list what you have and therefore potentially miss out on selling an item.
Furthermore, they should list last seasons' gear with the right price point to sell those items. Additionally, putting up a good offers once in a while (on previous years gear or packages) might lead to additional sales. Point in case is that I've been looking for a used board for months but just noone was selling it. I had my mind set to buy that board used, but ended up buying a 2014 as the price was good - still more what I originally planned to spend, but the offer was very good.
Finally, again also think about accessories (especially wetsuits). You are not just competing against other windsurf shops, but also kiteshops and surf retailers. Plus, you can also generate revenue from non-windsurfers. Why would you not list your wetsuits and update prices on previous seasons' stuff?
In summary, not having a good online business leads to missed sales for the retailers. Good online shops are also good for consumers, they might buy more, potentially cheaper and with ease. It's a win-win game.
Buying a wetsuit online, that's funny. The one thing than needs to fit properly to work, and you would chance buying the wrong size and then the hassles of return/replace. You're right that you can buy them everywhere, and that is what most people would do.
As for "sophistication", it's the lowest common denominator at play. Why spend the 10's of thousands required when none of the other retailers are?
if your are making ends meet, then why spend more. I think most people would not realise the time and effort involved to keep a sophisticated website up to date, ensure the security of the host and now face the real threat that a hack could cost you your business if you don't store personal details and credit card numbers securley. Most small business owners are not tech savvy enough to to be across all of this and run their business at the same time.
I would also say they may have been burnt in the past by dodgy IT companies/or have the feeling of being burnt because they were not sure what they wanted and it cost a small fortune. IT people are good at this.
The market is limited, there is no reason to shoot for the moon. With retail prices for new gear set to rise, investing heavily in a new website will be a low priority.
It's illegal to store credit card information. No one does it. Refer to PCI DSS policy. So security is a flawed argument. Also, it's been said numerous times that setting up a website isn't costly or difficult
Just over 4 years ago I walked into Surf FX because I decided I wanted to take up windsurfing. The guys didnt know me from a bar of soap. They set me up with my first rig a short time later and the rest is history. Their website isnt too bad and has a reasonably up to date list of stock and all the manufacturers have their own websites with all the info about why their boards etc are the best. Plenty of info for the customer to read through between the two.
Who cares. I would rather walk into the shop and talk crap with the guys and look at and touch the new gear, which more often than not leads to a sale I have done this on MANY occasions. So much so that now I am happy to consider these guys my friends. They even organise weekends where customers are invited go away camping on the beach with windsurfers, suppers and kiters and have an awesome time. This obviously didn't come about because I went in and got ripped off or because the guys are wankers. It came about because of the time spent with me as a muppet when I knew nothing and being great to deal with.
I would take that any day over some fancy online point of sale where you save a whole 10% over retail. If you build a relationship with any shop and buy your gear from them whenever possible you are just about guaranteed to get a 10% discount off retail and just maybe a fraction more on some items.
I know what I would prefer.
I loved the guys at surf FX until they started posting their hawaian vacation pics......
Select to expand quoteN1GEL said..
It's illegal to store credit card information. No one does it. Refer to PCI DSS policy. So security is a flawed argument. Also, it's been said numerous times that setting up a website isn't costly or difficult
PCI DSS is a "expected" for compliance not illegal. So your argument is flawed. Alot of small business would not be aware of it and who knows where their personal details are stored.
yes, you should be compliant and there are big penalties if you have a breach and are no compliant. This does not mean you can't do your own thing.
setting up an "noddy" website with a host that supplies a template with default metadata that does a great job advertising for the host is easy.
the argument is that these sites need to be sophisticated, and this is NOT cheap and simple.
Select to expand quotewestozwind said...
Buying a wetsuit online, that's funny. The one thing than needs to fit properly to work, and you would chance buying the wrong size and then the hassles of return/replace. You're right that you can buy them everywhere, and that is what most people would do.
As for "sophistication", it's the lowest common denominator at play. Why spend the 10's of thousands required when none of the other retailers are?
if your are making ends meet, then why spend more. I think most people would not realise the time and effort involved to keep a sophisticated website up to date, ensure the security of the host and now face the real threat that a hack could cost you your business if you don't store personal details and credit card numbers securley. Most small business owners are not tech savvy enough to to be across all of this and run their business at the same time.
I would also say they may have been burnt in the past by dodgy IT companies/or have the feeling of being burnt because they were not sure what they wanted and it cost a small fortune. IT people are good at this.
The market is limited, there is no reason to shoot for the moon. With retail prices for new gear set to rise, investing heavily in a new website will be a low priority.
Especially if no one else has it a business should do it as you will have a competititive advantage in the market. You will generate additional sales, so it's not just cost but an investment (which is also very easy to track digitally). Finally, it juat doesn't cost 10s of dollars.
Regarding the wetsuit: If you got another wetsuit from the same brand which fits perfectly like in my case then you can go for it . By the way there are plenty of wetsuits sold online... Furthermore, ever heard of showrooming? It's when people check out stuff in store and then buy online. Might not be fair to every retailer but happens a lot.
^^^ I do the opposite too - the downside of online info. If I wanted to buy a cheap item on ebay I'd look at the sizing charts, like Surfstitch having too much info helps me buy from a cheaper online retailer.
Just did a few sums. There are many assumptions and I have no idea what kind of turnover theses shops do.
I have assumed that the shop owner will not do any of the tech stuff. Maybe testing could be done, so scratch $2,800 if you want.
It's still tens of thousands either way.
Basic host $500.00 per annum
Good host $1,000.00 per annum Includes backups and patching of core (web servers etc.)
New site $5,000.00 Template, CSS & database 100 hours @ $50 an hour
Graphic design $5,000.00 Logo's, icons etc
Catalogue/stock pics $2,000.00 Resize/enhance etc
Integrated online purchasing:-
Regulatory compliance checking $1,000.00 Research and confirm best option for compliance, who will handle your transactions
Engage 3rd party vendor for online transactions & integrate into site $1,500.00 PayPal merchant services or other.
Per transaction cost 2.6% + $0.30 An ongoing cost per transaction (PayPal)
SSL certificate $500.00 per annum
Testing $2,800.00 Test it all works properly 80 hours (1 month) @ $35 per hour
Business impact $5,000.00 Train staff, learn the stuff yourself, new processes
Stock control system integration $5,000.00
Daily maintenance inc stock dispatch $14,200.00 2 hours a day @ 20 p/h per annum (355 days)
Total (initial) $27,300.00
Total (recurring) $15,700.00
Sub total $43,000.00
FUD $4,300.00 Rework @ 10%
Grand total $47,300.00
Turnover $700,000.00
Transaction cost - impact on bottom line $21,800.00 To PayPal
^^^ OK so Laurie needs to let each shop have an online store on this site, for a fee of course say triple the normal site sponsor costs ....... save on the web costs for the shops though .... everybody's happy.
Westozwind you're thinking traditional ICT. yes you would have all those costs. But this is the digital economy era where all of those line items you mentioned are bought as a service and have already been done for you.
Have a look at the www.jcurve.com.au link mentioned earlier. They are a cloud provider and have it all ready to go. You just add your logo's, pick a style you want and whacko you have all of it ready to go on demand when you want to implement it. Paypal and secure pay are built in all for $49 per month!
Interesting discussion, we will be migrating part of the business over to ONLINE for sure over the coming months. At the same time I think that even though shops do not have full blown online shopping capabilities, a lot of the sales are being done via internet inquiries and interstate. Buyers should benefit from the supply of the various brands in Australia. The industry itself will adapt automatically. It's fair to say that the internet is a game changer - one may see that as a threat but it's also an opportunity!
Select to expand quotetazmania said..
Westozwind you're thinking traditional ICT. yes you would have all those costs. But this is the digital economy era where all of those line items you mentioned are bought as a service and have already been done for you.
Have a look at the www.jcurve.com.au link mentioned earlier. They are a cloud provider and have it all ready to go. You just add your logo's, pick a style you want and whacko you have all of it ready to go on demand when you want to implement it. Paypal and secure pay are built in all for $49 per month!
Why does that sound like a plug (no offence intended). Can you disclose if you have any affiliation?
you would still need the majority of my costs if you are not tech savvy.
ive estimated that you could save around $8k (removed hosting and ecommerce integration)
The full cost of the jcurve service is not easy to identify, and I would imagine customising it is where they make their money.
shops may want more than just an ecommerce front end. What about travel stories, pictures, videos and gear reviews?
I think it is going to cost a lot more than $49 a month......interesting they don't put all the pricing. You need to read the fine print.
"Pricing is for one licence of JCurve Accounts. Advanced features will incur additional fees payable upfront annually in advance. "
Having a serviced application in the "cloud" does not remove the original issue (the original post above) where the shops and the on-line sites are out of sync.
The shop owner needs to maintain the retail sales/stock application, and the "cloud" copy.
This requires extra efforts, and unless automated, will always cause discrepancies.
If one runs a retail shop, he/she wants to focus on the core business, so needs expert help. One needs a day off every now and again to spend with the family, or god forbid, go sailing. (Not spending weekends and nights to set up the shop, and synchronise the on-line stock) 
Setting up an eBay shop may be an option.
A business case needs to be set up to compare the up-front and ongoing costs vs. maintaining eBay shop.
Similar to what WestOzWind did above.
What I would pay attention to if I was running a retail shop, and wishing to expand do the on-line presence:
1. Get a young enthusiastic IT graduate on a full time basis. He/she can help with the shop application and on-line app.
2. Find a way to keep your stock database in sync with the on-line one. Never type into two.
3. Once (if) you commit to the hosted application, figure out how to transfer the shop to another host without losing the shop "front end".
It's the same old story ... I remember when desktop publishing software first became widely available... the common feedback you got from small business was "why would I pay a designer when I can buy the software for $100 and do it myself". Needless to say the results were all over the shop.
Then it was photography and video production.... "my nephew is pretty good with his digital camera. I'll just get him to do the photos for free..."
And then my all time favorite, "my mother used to do the parents newsletter at my school back in the 90s. I'll get her to give feedback on the business web application."Yes services like Shopify have brought the cost of running an online stored down significantly but it still doesn't solve the problem stock management, managing the content on the site, user training etc. As with any IT system it's usually not the startup cost that are the problem it's the ongoing running.
In the case of a Windsurf store just think of things like do you digitally manage the stock of every last screw? If not where do you draw the line. How do you communicate to your staff where that line is drawn? I am not saying it's not doable but it does require a lot of time. Given most shops are small businesses where the owner still works the floor there is often no time to even get the basics of running a business done let alone implementing a new way of doing business.
So from the store owners point you really need to get a return of investment ie can I shift more product or will people simply use my site to shop for the cheapest product on offer?
Select to expand quotewestozwind said..
New site $5,000.00 Template, CSS & database 100 hours @ $50 an hour
Graphic design $5,000.00 Logo's, icons etc
Catalogue/stock pics $2,000.00 Resize/enhance etc
Daily maintenance inc stock dispatch $14,200.00 2 hours a day @ 20 p/h per annum (355 days)
Web content management at $20 per hour? An entire stores product ranged photographed at $2,000? $50 an hour to do database development?
You can't even get web services that cheap in India or the Philippines let alone Australia. Minimum wage is $17.29 for permanent staff so you have to add things like holidays and sick days as well as super... casuals will get a loading, driving your staff cost already past $20. Realistically if you pay an employee $20 an hour it will cost your business between $40 and $50 per hour and that's for small business. Bigger ad agencies for example charge employees out at around 3 times what it costs them.
Just saying...
I assumed on the low side. It was just to identify that (as per usual) the cost of the tech is only the tip of the iceberg. Also did now want to give the game away ;)
I love the “It’s the digital economy era, it’s all ‘as a service’ man. Low cost and no risk. Just bung it in the cloud.”. If I had a dollar for every time this has been proven wrong…
Talk to those who suffered an Office 365/Google Docs outage recently and see how the bosses feel.
If you have specific role (sales guy) with generic tasks (sales) and you are willing to change your business practices and change the risk profile of your business then there are efficiencies of scale in the cloud. They scale well if you are big.
As for JCurve.
So it’s actually a repackaged offering from the US. The T’s & C’s put all the onus on the customer. If JCurve has a problem, you have little redress. Being US based, any outage windows will usually affect Australian business during opening hours.Service level agreement has not been updated since 2012 and commits to 99.5 update. So customers wear a 2 day unscheduled outage.
They don’t do refunds, only credit back on your account. Miss one payment and you are no longer even eligible for this.
You can’t get your “site” out if you choose to move host, you have to start again.
For the nerds one of their “testimonial” sites is -lifeinteriors. com. au-
Run your network tools and see what you discover.You get what you pay for…
you 'can' do anything yourself, doesn't mean it will be any good. It also means you'll probably take longer to do it than someone that knows what they are doing.
DIY web is an option of course - but if it's for something more than a hobby, it leaves a lot to be desired, causes headaches and results can be questionable. There's a lot more that goes on and needs to be done behind the scenes that most aren't aware of. Of course I may be biased as I work in design and web ;)
westozwind
Right now today, your favourite site
is about as fast as the second coming. That slow, all it did a few times was load a white blank page. 
That gets the on-line buyers in A
The competitors were loading in a blink
Select to expand quoteMcSmurfin said..
DIY web is an option of course
DIY web is actually relatively cheap these days but as said it will take time...
In my previous business I maintained a up to date list of stock on the website by using a drop box link to an excel spreadsheet. It was a timber business so each pack was unique and customers just clicked on the link to download to spreadsheet and pick the pack they wanted. Once the pack was sold I deleted it off the spreadsheet so available stick was up to date all the time
Lots of great ideas and suggestions here.
Research shows us that by the year 2020 (5 years away) 85% of consumers will be shopping on-line, even more reason to have an updated website with shopping cart. Whilst some shops don't have pricing on their products now, trends will show them the way. Fortunately IT has evolved much faster and spreadsheets, databases and cms's have been replaced by plug-ins and widgets, making the transition much less complicated.
Very interesting thread .. as I see it pros and cons to online .
I have been in this windsurf retail for 30 years and okay I might be old school but the only reason I am still here is because I always strive to give the right advice .
For those sailors out there that know exactly want they want I get it, but are they going to click on RRP price new board and buy it .. I don't think so they will want some sort of deal . For me as a sole operator to go online it is a lot of work , new software a lot of of time with photos etc and maintenance of the site .
At the moment I use the seabreeze classified with great success . Maybe I should start putting small items on line and test the waters
