Select to expand quotejusavina said..
I tried the Lt in 15knts and was seriously put off by the rig.
When you guys are talking about going out on the Lt in planning conditions, do you swap the rig for a fully batten sail or do you keep the original rig?
I think this can make a big difference in how you enjoy a board (or not). For example, I love modern raceboards but I don't think I would like it with the Lt rig in planning conditions.
The LT is not perfect but in 15 knots it is a walk in the park to sail but it can be physically demanding in heavier winds. There are tuning and rigging details that the better sailors are right on top off too. I agree the rig could be improved but as it is it is still a fun board and any change increases cost and complexity which goes against the class objectives. I expect there would be some opposition to any changes. I sailed a few weeks ago here in a twilight race in winds of 29 knots and huge Swan River windswells, using the standard rig. It was extremely hard to sail the board including bear aways off the wind but that is part of the challenge and I would not just put that down to the sail, infact longboards are hard to sail in those conditions except with smaller sails even smaller than 5.7 m2. Only one sailor Craig Bell (Stuart Bell's brother) managed to get around the 15 km course that day but he is actually an extremely good sailor. His view was that 29 knots is about maximum for the board right on the limit.
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..jusavina said..
I tried the Lt in 15knts and was seriously put off by the rig.
When you guys are talking about going out on the Lt in planning conditions, do you swap the rig for a fully batten sail or do you keep the original rig?
I think this can make a big difference in how you enjoy a board (or not). For example, I love modern raceboards but I don't think I would like it with the Lt rig in planning conditions.
The LT is not perfect but in 15 knots it is a walk in the park to sail but it can be physically demanding in heavier winds. There are tuning and rigging details that the better sailors are right on top off too. I agree the rig could be improved but as it is it is still a fun board and any change increases cost and complexity which goes against the class objectives. I expect there would be some opposition to any changes. I sailed a few weeks ago here in a twilight race in winds of 29 knots and huge Swan River windswells, using the standard rig. It was extremely hard to sail the board including bear aways off the wind but that is part of the challenge and I would not just put that down to the sail, infact longboards are hard to sail in those conditions except with smaller sails even smaller than 5.7 m2. Only one sailor Craig Bell (Stuart Bell's brother) managed to get around the 15 km course that day but he is actually an extremely good sailor. His view was that 29 knots is about maximum for the board right on the limit.
That's impressive. I think the most I've had my longboard in was gusting to 20kts and I had a 7.5 and footstraps. It felt like the chop and swells in the open bay were manageable but would've been a bit of a nightmare without footstraps. Just thinking of the water state without that in close to 30 knots...
Select to expand quotecammd said..Chris 249 said..cammd said..
Back to the question from the OP "I really enjoy my Windsurfer LT but often wonder if a longboard with foot straps could be more enjoyable in planning conditions?"
The answer is, of course a longboard with footstraps would be more enjoyable in planning conditions than one without, that's why every single planning windsurf board since the invention of footstraps on windsurf boards 40 or 50 years ago has got footstraps, every single one. The manufacturer's don't put footstraps on planning boards just for decoration, they do it because its better with them then without.
ps. a modern sail makes them better too. 
Depends entirely on your personal choice, and there have been plenty of planing boards without footstraps. Every windsurfer planes, including D2s.
"Better" is also completely a matter of personal choice rather than anything being "better", just like the fact that my family's multis are more stable and have more "modern" sails than your yacht doesn't mean that they are better, and the fact that my cruiser may be lighter and faster than yours doesn't mean it's "better". There are plenty of people who have won lots on "modern" sails who sail LTs, for example.
It's all personal choice and perspective. I love Raceboards (and know them extremely well) but these days in planing conditions I go for the LT every time. You may choose differently but that's your personal choice and perspective. There is no wrong or right, just as there is no wrong or right if one person likes scotch and one like red wine. It's like choosing between living in a classic inner-city house on a trendy street versus living in a country acreage; they can't really be compared so neither is "better", merely different.
Yeah I get it's personal choice but I don't agree that really applies to footstraps when on the plane, clearly they offer more performance and more comfort and more stability/security. Every board that is designed to be sailed on the plane (as it's normal sailing mode) has them... d2's windsup etc don't fall into that category.
Why must some people insist the Windsurfer LT be great at everything, no board is great at everything but it seems that if someone asks if a different board may be better at this or that then RichardG and to a lesser extent others must insist that they wont be, it seems like insecurity. LT's are obviously great at what they are designed for, one design fleet racing, recreational cruising, maybe some paddling, the participation and sales numbers tell the story. But when it comes to having a blast on the plane I would argue there are better boards, namely ones with footstraps. That does not diminish the LT, it doesn't have to be great at everything, it is what it is, probably the best selling board in Australia in recent years but not the best planing one.
D2s were definitely designed to be sailed on the plane (have you ever raced one or talked to the designers?); if not they would be slower all-round than a Heron!
The LT's certainly not the best at everything and I don't think anyone has said that it is. What we are trying to say is that not everything should be judged from one point of view. You state AS A FACT that footstraps are more enjoyable in planing conditions when really, what is "more enjoyable" is always a personal view.
It's a bit like people who state AS A FACT that a cruising cat is better than your yacht, because the cruising cat sails flatter. It's like me saying AS A FACT that my houses are better than yours because they are in areas I prefer to live. All of these things are merely personal tastes, or even personal trade-offs.
Not everyone likes the same thing, and even when we like some things we don't want to have them every time. I love chocolate but I don't want to eat just chocolate every day; I like footstraps but I don't want to use footstraps on all my boards, even in planing conditions. I LIKE "walking the board" on an LT, just like many of us love "walking the board" on a Malibu when surfing. Why always have to have the same things all the time?
Nothing that is as personal as preferences in sailing style can be stated as if it is a fact.
Select to expand quotejusavina said..
I tried the Lt in 15knts and was seriously put off by the rig.
When you guys are talking about going out on the Lt in planning conditions, do you swap the rig for a fully batten sail or do you keep the original rig?
I think this can make a big difference in how you enjoy a board (or not). For example, I love modern raceboards but I don't think I would like it with the Lt rig in planning conditions.
That's fine - that's your personal preference that is to be completely respected, but that's all it is - personal. I gave up Raceboards (which I think you love, for good reason) because I'm utterly put off by the cost, complication, weight and rigidity of the modern Raceboard rig. My preference is just as valid as yours. We all have our own preferences. We don't expect you to like the same music, car, wine, beer, meals or houses either.
Like Craig Spottiswood when he did 32 knots, I use the LT rig on the LT at all times because I love its light weight and I don't really care if the CLE moves around; I actually enjoy the feeling of responding to the wind myself. In 22 knots + you can get an LT upwind with only one hand on the boom much of the time, if you have the rig trimmed properly. I find its weight is much better balanced than the RB rig, where you use so much rake, and the short and high foot allows the LT to tack without that slow turn the RB makes. Your personal taste is different and that's great.
Put it this way - three of the top 6 guys in the last Raceboard nationals you won own and have been recently racing LTs, while two of the top Australian LT sailors did serious IMCO Olympic campaigns (ie 2nd in the Youth Worlds, top 10 in IMCO world rankings etc) and many others have lots of RB/Slalom/Wave experience. There are lots of people who have lots of experience and success in other classes with "modern" rigs who sail LTs, and they don't do it because they are idiots.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..cammd said..Chris 249 said..cammd said..
Back to the question from the OP "I really enjoy my Windsurfer LT but often wonder if a longboard with foot straps could be more enjoyable in planning conditions?"
The answer is, of course a longboard with footstraps would be more enjoyable in planning conditions than one without, that's why every single planning windsurf board since the invention of footstraps on windsurf boards 40 or 50 years ago has got footstraps, every single one. The manufacturer's don't put footstraps on planning boards just for decoration, they do it because its better with them then without.
ps. a modern sail makes them better too.
Depends entirely on your personal choice, and there have been plenty of planing boards without footstraps. Every windsurfer planes, including D2s.
"Better" is also completely a matter of personal choice rather than anything being "better", just like the fact that my family's multis are more stable and have more "modern" sails than your yacht doesn't mean that they are better, and the fact that my cruiser may be lighter and faster than yours doesn't mean it's "better". There are plenty of people who have won lots on "modern" sails who sail LTs, for example.
It's all personal choice and perspective. I love Raceboards (and know them extremely well) but these days in planing conditions I go for the LT every time. You may choose differently but that's your personal choice and perspective. There is no wrong or right, just as there is no wrong or right if one person likes scotch and one like red wine. It's like choosing between living in a classic inner-city house on a trendy street versus living in a country acreage; they can't really be compared so neither is "better", merely different.
Yeah I get it's personal choice but I don't agree that really applies to footstraps when on the plane, clearly they offer more performance and more comfort and more stability/security. Every board that is designed to be sailed on the plane (as it's normal sailing mode) has them... d2's windsup etc don't fall into that category.
Why must some people insist the Windsurfer LT be great at everything, no board is great at everything but it seems that if someone asks if a different board may be better at this or that then RichardG and to a lesser extent others must insist that they wont be, it seems like insecurity. LT's are obviously great at what they are designed for, one design fleet racing, recreational cruising, maybe some paddling, the participation and sales numbers tell the story. But when it comes to having a blast on the plane I would argue there are better boards, namely ones with footstraps. That does not diminish the LT, it doesn't have to be great at everything, it is what it is, probably the best selling board in Australia in recent years but not the best planing one.
D2s were definitely designed to be sailed on the plane (have you ever raced one or talked to the designers?); if not they would be slower all-round than a Heron!
The LT's certainly not the best at everything and I don't think anyone has said that it is. What we are trying to say is that not everything should be judged from one point of view. You state AS A FACT that footstraps are more enjoyable in planing conditions when really, what is "more enjoyable" is always a personal view.
It's a bit like people who state AS A FACT that a cruising cat is better than your yacht, because the cruising cat sails flatter. It's like me saying AS A FACT that my houses are better than yours because they are in areas I prefer to live. All of these things are merely personal tastes, or even personal trade-offs.
Not everyone likes the same thing, and even when we like some things we don't want to have them every time. I love chocolate but I don't want to eat just chocolate every day; I like footstraps but I don't want to use footstraps on all my boards, even in planing conditions. I LIKE "walking the board" on an LT, just like many of us love "walking the board" on a Malibu when surfing. Why always have to have the same things all the time?
Nothing that is as personal as preferences in sailing style can be stated as if it is a fact.
The OP asked a question, I just posted my opinion.
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..jusavina said..
I tried the Lt in 15knts and was seriously put off by the rig.
When you guys are talking about going out on the Lt in planning conditions, do you swap the rig for a fully batten sail or do you keep the original rig?
I think this can make a big difference in how you enjoy a board (or not). For example, I love modern raceboards but I don't think I would like it with the Lt rig in planning conditions.
The LT is not perfect but in 15 knots it is a walk in the park to sail but it can be physically demanding in heavier winds. There are tuning and rigging details that the better sailors are right on top off too. I agree the rig could be improved but as it is it is still a fun board and any change increases cost and complexity which goes against the class objectives. I expect there would be some opposition to any changes. I sailed a few weeks ago here in a twilight race in winds of 29 knots and huge Swan River windswells, using the standard rig. It was extremely hard to sail the board including bear aways off the wind but that is part of the challenge and I would not just put that down to the sail, infact longboards are hard to sail in those conditions except with smaller sails even smaller than 5.7 m2. Only one sailor Craig Bell (Stuart Bell's brother) managed to get around the 15 km course that day but he is actually an extremely good sailor. His view was that 29 knots is about maximum for the board right on the limit.
This is a digression now, but we had 25 gusting 32 on the weekend. A few of us finished the race, but getting back to the club upwind was when a particularly strong patch came through. Two of us made it back but it was extremely hard work with a couple of back slams (for me anyway). This was with settings maxed out. Heaps of fun :)
All of which is to say, the suggestion of a 29knot limit seems ballpark right (for getting around a course).
Select to expand quotecammd said..
I guess "longboard" is broad term, if RichardG can consider a windsup a longboard than Roy1000, myself and the International Raceboard Class can consider a techno293 one as well. Sound Fair?
apologies if not counted as "longboard" i just assumed as its longer than normal windsurf boards
