Importance of team rider for sail development?

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Nubie said..

If you give today slalom boards,wide,paralel outlines,hard rails etc to riders in 1990,they will say that board is very brutal to sail/jibe...
But sometimes riders must adapt to new stuff in purpose of performance.

In theory wide slalom board will allways outperform narrow long boards from past,but allways stay question why wide boards come in windsurifng so late,becasue theory was same in 1990....I suppose this is because of evolution process based on rider feedback(trial/error system)

Actually I think many people will say that the modern slalom board is easier to gybe.

The reason why we had long narrow slalom boards was because they worked in the technology of the day. People have known about the theoretical advantages of short and wide planing surfaces for decades. Dinghy sailors were aware of it back in the 1930s, probably from work on seaplane floats. Guys like Mark Paul and Midget Farrelly were making wide boards in the early/mid '80s.

But if you built a short, wide slalom board in the 1980s it would spin out repeatedly, because the fins were much smaller and less developed. The sails were also tighter in the leach, because a big sail with an open leach was impractical in many ways for much of the time. You couldn't really just whack a big fin on because the fin boxes couldn't take it; even my carbon double stringer ex-Robby Naish custom had the fin box roll out. Oh, and much of the top-line slalom racing was done in the surf, so you had lighter people than today's sailors, operating in white water and needing to win races by accelerating quickly back up to planing speed after gybing in light winds right in the beach and then hitting incoming waves.

The evolution process is incredibly complicated because it has to encompass all these different pieces of technology, all developing at different rates and having different effects. The physics are not linear, and every piece of design affects the other pieces of design.

As a team rider I would like to think my in depth feedback helps improve the design, look and performance of the product.
I am and Engineer so I do look at the finer points and break all parts down to analyse all aspects.
Some sail designers listen more than others that are just the way it is. I have been fortunate to have one now with S2 Maui that does listen to what I have to say.
It must be hard as a designer that has put there hart and sole into a product for someone to then cretic that product and tell them this and that can be improved.
The sail designer has way more experience and knowledge than I do and Dave Ezzy especially but as a person who races all the time and wants the best, can most certainly improve a products performance and looks , listening to what people think will always help guide a product to improve potential sales.
The sail designer needs to make the sail that suits the intended purpose and something that will sell to the public not something design individually for the one person hence feed back from different sources will be the only way to achieve this.

I am a bit confused here.

Is anyone suggesting that whatever David Ezzy's methods are that they don't work ?

Surely Ezzy have created some of the greatest sails ever made and have done so over and over again for many many years.

If David Ezzy said he consults the horoscope and designs sails from divine inspiration after overdosing on acid laced organic papaya every full moon whilst listening to hardcore rap in a smoking yurt and studying the stripes on a zebra - would people still say his methods are wrong ?

Whatever he does it obviously works. Good on him for sharing those methods.


If you think he is wrong then maybe it would be more useful to re-evaluate your concept of what works rather than restating your concept of what you know is right ?

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Faff said..

Carantoc said..
I am a bit confused here.

Is anyone suggesting that whatever David Ezzy's methods are that they don't work ?

Surely Ezzy have created some of the greatest sails ever made and have done so over and over again for many many years.

If David Ezzy said he consults the horoscope and designs sails from divine inspiration after overdosing on acid laced organic papaya every full moon whilst listening to hardcore rap in a smoking yurt and studying the stripes on a zebra - would people still say his methods are wrong ?

Whatever he does it obviously works. Good on him for sharing those methods.


If you think he is wrong then maybe it would be more useful to re-evaluate your concept of what works rather than restating your concept of what you know is right ?

Should prove it in competition then. I mean if he's right, and everyone else (rotational sails) is wrong, anyone using them would have a significant advantage on the Pro circuit.

I think someone mentioned earlier though that the Ezzy approach is not to sponsor a team and have them compete and worry about results. If he did, he would have to add this into the costs and put the prices up. I assume he decided for him and his market, its not worth it.

I have done some sail testing over the years also some board testing, from wave gear to freeride, i have done no slalom of formula as i dont enjoy this side of the sport, I am no where near a pro sailor, i am maybe above Western Austrailan average on a good day. lol.. but in saying that i have also been sailing a long time and can feel what gear is doing and usualy what it need to be a bit better.

I have done this with 2 different sail compaines and the second i have been doing work on and off for about the last 10 years, also with a board designer, get to talk to and sail with the designer/s and get to offer my opinion on what i think of the gear, what i think works for someone of my level and what i would want the gear to do for someone of my level.

They do take all this input on board and maybe they will use some off it, maybe not, but i do think its very important for people of different levels to be part of the feedback process, if the only input they get is from pro level sailosr the sport would go down hill fast as all the mid range gear is aimed at joe average and they are the people that spend all the money on the gear, Professional sailors have way different ideas to everyone else and at times their gear and set up is almost unuseable to the average guy on the water.

the main thing he said was.

" A lot of the other designers don't windsurf"

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Stuthepirate said..
It would be folly to think that the top team riders/racers sails aren't custom made to there specs or requests and the mass produced sail for the market takes in the considerations of all team riders/designers experience??

Top riders are known to have prototypes, As far as custom sails ...I don't think so.
i will ask and follow that up.

A lot of talk about team riders being Genetically gifted - this is true in some cases - but often the most outstanding windsurfers got there by
determination and putting in the hours. And taking the leap into committing to windsurfing full time. The riders I respect the most are those that squeeze the most out of themselves despite their natural abilities.

I remember seeing Jane Seman go from weekend warrior to one of the most respected wave sailors in the world - just by putting in the hours, - even with a full time job - driving to good conditions every weekend or for gunning that afterwork 20 minute session in winter to beat the sunset (or sunrise). I wouldn't say she was a particularly raw talented windsurfer but her determination took her places.

Same with Rowan Law - a light weight slalom sailor with near perfect technique that might not be the fastest top end for a 2 second average on a GPS - but for all round average speed, tight and deep angles and technique around marks is nigh on unbeatable.

Ben Severne is a great case of determination and will over raw talent. And the ability to carry or recover from injuries and sail on regardless.

Justinya Sniady the same (based here in WA) - has come a long way with determination and commitment to be an awesome all round sailor.

Hours on the water and the determination to evolve and develop new skills is a common denominator in all the above riders. None of them i would say are particularly talented.

Its the Chinese theory of 10,000 hours.

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P.C_simpson said..
I have done some sail testing over the years also some board testing, from wave gear to freeride,

I watched that documentary - you used a helicopter to get to the beach. But you nearly hit a cop car.
I do understand you got-the-girl too... go for you old chap!

^^ Pretty practical n grunty for the over 100kg crew. Love em. They get me planing when the lightweights are.

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Mark _australia said..

Gestalt said.. david did a pretty good job of bagging the industry with his comments.

I thought I missed something so I read the whole article not just that one question.
I think quite the opposite, he admitted his failings and made general comments, then in that one question he mentioned that some brands' designers don't sail/ sail much.
He was critical of that, but said he takes a different approach.
Wouldn't say he bagged out the industry

what he said is simply not true. i think he said it to elevate himself above others and to make his sails appear better. pretty uncool i think.

who are these designers that dont windsurf?

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forceten said..

Stuthepirate said..
It would be folly to think that the top team riders/racers sails aren't custom made to there specs or requests and the mass produced sail for the market takes in the considerations of all team riders/designers experience??

Top riders are known to have prototypes, As far as custom sails ...I don't think so.
i will ask and follow that up.

From a top us rider, we use custom sails all the time. They turn into continued developments.

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Gestalt said..

Mark _australia said..

Gestalt said.. david did a pretty good job of bagging the industry with his comments.

I thought I missed something so I read the whole article not just that one question.
I think quite the opposite, he admitted his failings and made general comments, then in that one question he mentioned that some brands' designers don't sail/ sail much.
He was critical of that, but said he takes a different approach.
Wouldn't say he bagged out the industry

what he said is simply not true. i think he said it to elevate himself above others and to make his sails appear better. pretty uncool i think.

who are these designers that dont windsurf?

I agree with allot of that - don't know if he intended to elevate himself but I am having a hard time thinking of Sail designers who are not sailors.

Off the top of my head: Ben Severne - excellent sailor, Jeffrey Henderson(Hotsails) 1st place masters IWT, Jason DIffin(Goya) very good sailor, Bruce Peterson(Sailworks) still winning local races... I'm not sure about the big ones like NP, but North/Duotone are more collaborative with Kai Hopf, Raul Joa both being sailors & Klaas Voget also heavily involved. I'm sure the NP design team is made up of some avid sailors as well. I would guess that most of the sail designers actually windsurf. Personally I do think its important to be an avid sailor if you are going to design anything related to windsurfing, but I also think it's important to have good team riders that can push the boundaries especially if they are also good at communicating feedback. Equally important is having a way to get feedback from the user base, perhaps through dealer network or forums, social media etc., lastly some formal engineering training is helpful.

Team Riders, David Ezzy has worked with now and in the past include: Kevin Pritchard, Graham Ezzy, Levi Siver, Josh Angulo, Francisco Goya, Keith Teboul, Craig Maisonville and others and while at North included: David Kalama, Dave Sheen, Rohan Cudmore and Ken Winner. Some big names there. I think David Ezzy would be in a good position to make the statement he has made and with good reason. I wonder if he would hold to and repeat that statement today six years later ? Quite possibly. What did he say: "Team riders are not very important for product development. Over the last 30 years............only a few times have I been able to translate a team riders wants into anything useful design-wise. .........A lot of the other designers don't windsurf (or don't windsurf very much), so they might find rider feedback more useful. I am the first one to test every Ezzy sail." It does not appear he said anything controversial. He doesn't claim to be the best designer nor the only designer who windsurfs. Just that product development design wise is more likely to come independently of rider feedback in his experience. It will not always be the case and there will be exceptions where, as he says himself, a "few times" rider feedback provides a design improvement but the general rule applies.

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Nubie said..
C7: How important are team riders and a professional world tour for a brand?

David Ezzy: Team riders are not very important for product development. Over the last 30 years, I've worked with a lot of big names and my sails have held many world titles. But through all that sail testing, only a few times have I been able to translate a team riders wants into anything useful design-wise. But I think I am in a different situation than most of the other sail designers because I windsurf practically every day either in the waves at Hookipa or flat-water at Kanaha. A lot of the other designers don't windsurf (or don't windsurf very much), so they might find rider feedback more useful. I am the first one to test every Ezzy sail.

www.continentseven.com/david-ezzy-interview/

Riders dont know nothing about aerodynamics/physics but isnt their feedback also important?
What do you think?

Here's what I think , since you asked . This interview , you quoted 1 paragraph, I can't say it's taken out of context, but theirs more to it than this question. It's a old interview.

You state a sail designer doesn't need to sail, horse manure. You state riders don't know nothing about nothing..it's true in one case I am reading about.

The feedback from a pro , will be significantly different to most others, this is even more telling on boards, what works for Keith Tabou is most likely not going to work for a majority, a proper comparison, unlike Formula 1.

Reading some of the remarks on this thread is ridiculous .