So obviously I've never been a fan of them.
Recently had a board that hissed when I opened the vent (and it was a new vent)
So I decided to test.
Built a little rig to pressurise and look for leak. The leak we want of course, so I tested the box and it would hold 5psi for a day.
Then screwed in some vents, pumped it up.
(1) Marked IPRO- commonly sold by surf supplies with the insert, for board builders. These are from Sanded and I tested a few.
Can't even pump up the enclosure.
(2) The most expensive, genuine Gore, its the one sold as Chinook and also Cobra, its in some factory Starboards and so on. (Hard to see in the pic but the gold lettered logo with Gore and M12x1.5 etc on it.
Can't even pump up the enclosure.
(3) No brand one with the red O-ring, seen far and wide but mostly on wing and SUP from what I've seen. Holds 5psi, drops to 4 over a few mins, then to 3psi over say 20mins. Takes overnight sometime to reach zero as of course there is a lot less pressure in the box.
(4) The only one avail with double membrane, a bloody great idea as if you have a tiny membrane failure you've got a 15kg board. AFAIK, only Severne Windsurf do this vent. Same as #3, slow leak-down but the second membrane does not slow it up compared to the slowest single membrane. Of course it has to be safer in a waterproofness sense.
(5) not pictured is a very obviously salty one I removed from a board that had a few seasons use. It was the red o-ring generic thing (#3).
NO VENTING. Held 5psi for a day. That's a bit scary in 45degC.
BTW the ones that vented so much faster then everything else concerned me, so I put a head of water on top. They don't let water in.
Conclusions so far - Do not forget it. Wash with fresh water externally now and then. Replace each season. Why not?
The advantage is firstly you will see if they didn't screw it in tight (I've seen it) or didn't drill a hole under it (seen that too).
Bring it in for checking if you don't wanna do it yourself.
Next - do they vent with moisture on the inside of the board? Testing by Decrepit showed they DON'T. I'm going to wet the inside of the box then pump it up. (No comments required...) Slightly different methodology to his. TBA.
Then, see what pressure I can actually generate in a dark board in the sun, I've made an adaptor for gauge into vent hole, just in time for the cool weather here grrr.
Service yours now. Bring it in if you don't want to
Mark
MOzCustoms
good test Mark, I'll be very interested to see if your internal moisture tests are the same as mine.
But mine had been inverted in water for a while, then dried out. just having a bit of moisture in the box, may not get enough to the vent.
The Gore m12x1,5 PMF100585 is the best valve from Gore with the highest Airflow up to 4,000 ml/minute. Gore do also make Gore m12x1,5 PMF100320 or PMF100318 with flowrate 400 ml/minute.
I have just changed the valves in my Fox 95 and 120. the old valves do have a grey membrane at the end of the valve. The Gore m12x1,5 PMF100585 which I have bought do not have that membrane at the end of the screw. I think the Gore company do products at highest quality and therfore has another mechanism into the valve.
I have been incontact with the Gore company:
"Good afternoon John, Thank you for your message and your interest in our GORE? Protective Vent Screw-In Vents. The PMF100320 and the PMF100585 are identical in terms of plastic material, thread size and part dimension. But they both have different membranes. The PMF100320 has a standard membrane with a typical airflow of 450 ml/min and can be used for enclosures with a free air volume up to 5 liter. The PMF100585 has a high airflow membrane with a typical airflow of 4.000 ml/min and can be used for enclosures with a free air volume of up to 50 liter".
Do not use much force to screw it in the Board, recommended torque is: 0,7 +/0,1 Nm which is not much, its better to only use handcraft with the 16mm inset.
John
So far what I've got from that is they should not be installed where water can pool on them hmmmmm
And they don't suit the size of our larger craft perhaps ... or if they do it's only barely. There's gonna be approaching 50L air in a SUP and even if we say it's much less air, from what I've shown salt completely blocks it so that 4lpm will drop to sweet FA after some use.
they never were designed for our application
Shops saying 'don't touch it' isn't a help. They do need maintenance
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
So far what I've got from that is they should not be installed where water can pool on them hmmmmm
And they don't suit the size of our larger craft perhaps ... or if they do it's only barely. There's gonna be approaching 50L air in a SUP and even if we say it's much less air, from what I've shown salt completely blocks it so that 4lpm will drop to sweet FA after some use.
All I can say is, the day I manage to damage the laminate on my two boards (that have the vents) I'm bringing them to you for installation of normal vents. I've never been a fan either, but won't play with them other than rinsing them after sailing till that happens.
I do my test too with gore, shaper and g?n?ric. All works both way even with water on. Problems is salt crystalisation that close goretex. Need to clean with fresh water often. Big problem is if you have an open ding, repair close ding, salt water in blank finished against goretex crystalize from interior, no more vent.
Never been convinced with Gore-tex. Looks like marketing on steroids. Seems the marketing has shortened name to Gore to distance themselves from past issues. In misspent youth was into serious alpine climbing and ultra hiking and spent way too much buying "Gore-tex" equipment like boots, gloves, wind jackets etc. Worked fine for light effort/conditions but basically worthless after a few days hard use. Never did what they claimed where any body moisture was "vented". Vented to where? Moisture goes by osmotic pressure to where it's least wet. Sure, if you are sweating and its sunny outside (why are you wearing this thing?) the venting may work as claimed but if its bucketing down it goes the other way. Gloves, boots all froze solid.. Much better to use way cheaper plastic that actually stops rain getting in and a basic wool/dacron insulation. For Goretex windsurf vent application the result is obvious from Gortex's main claim from 1969: "Gore-Tex blocks liquid water while allowing water vapor to pass through". Water vapor is just air mixed with water so water goes through regardless just with a bit of air. A basic O ring vent will work 1000% better than this BS.
Gore-tex can let air through or it can block water from going through, but it cannot do both at the same time. I.e. if there is water inside the board it will not get out of the board and neither will the air.
These dodads are supposed to be engineered to have a hydrophobic surface so that liquid water will bead up and not block the membrane preventing gas transport.
...Of course that doesn't work if they are fully submerged in liquid.
Not what i see when test. I fill cup, where gore nut is screw, with water and even under water it let in board air go out without water intake. But if it's salt water when dry, cristal salt close the goretex, no more air go through.
Agree if you want a secure sytem, screw is better.
Pete Casica in California worked with Gore to create this whole market for surfboards. Pete always recommends dual vents in big ass SUPs. The story of Pete and Goretex in the link.
www.gore.com/system/files/2018-03/article_mechanical_engineering_surfboard_venting.pdf
Today Pete doesn't sell Gore Vents. He sourced a higher quality vent from Donaldson Filters.
www.donaldson.com/en-us/venting/products/
The Donaldson is way more robust a design. The cap doesn't break off when a customer messes with it. So no more warranty due to a kook using pliers on it. It uses a more coarse thread, so kooks cannot cross thread it. Pete Casica (Casica Engineering) supplies all the US custom board builders. The vent coast is higher, but worth it.
www.surfsource.net/store/product/BreatherventcasicaRetrofitglassin ....source if paying retail.
It still won't work when salty. So needs washing and at some stage replacement
they sell it as maintenance free and it's not.
Yeah, I've never found it a problem remembering to put the vent plug in, and it's done in under 15sec. It just gets burned into the brain as part of the routine. I have more worry about a goretex vent malfunction (that I won't know about till it's way too late) than remembering to do up vent plugs
Outside of Australia, where there seems to be more awareness, I've rarely seen people touch their (o-ring) vents. It's something you put in when assembling the board first time and that's it. I've lived in places with a hot climate and nobody seemed to bother there. I didn't know either at the time and thought that the vent was only for flying (airplane). The board is still going strong (since 2018) for what it's worth so not sure if the burden of doing and undoing it every time is worth it. It's easy for a o-ring to get damaged in the process (or forget to close it even).
I don't leave my board in the sun for a prolonged period of time but even then, people don't do and undo it on the beach so is it only useful during transport? I don't like undoing the vent when the board is still wet as some water might get in...
So in that regard, given that 80% of people probably never touch their vent, a somewhat working membrane vent might be better for most people than a o-ring vent. From a manufacturer's perspective, they only need to provide 1 year warranty anyway.
with my Sunova boards there is no other option ,as they all come with vortex valves ,so far so good ,
starboard however have gone back to the removable plug ,
It's definitely worth undoing them, my mates board ballooned sitting on the beach at long point one hot day. It did have a delam (as best we could tell) that started it, but the amount of expansion was phenomenal. I wouldn't take the risk of leaving it in place forever
yes, it's once there is even the tiniest weak point, higher air pressure goes to the weakest spot, and can start expanding it.
When sailing over chop, that compresses air more and the expansion continues until there's a complete delam
I try the close screw vent while board is hot tech to reduce expansion delam, seems to work. Need to do it after repair and probably regulary...
May be it work also because cooking epoxy increase Tg where epoxy softened and allow delamination. I also like to strenghened eps surface, (where eps separate when delam) with some resin slurry penetration while i build board, think it help.
Thans for this testing!
I think it would not be too hard to block the Gore Tex bit with GGlue or similar and transform them into traditional vents to avoid the hassle of reglassing new vents.
Select to expand quotelemat said..
I try the close screw vent while board is hot tech to reduce expansion delam, seems to work. Need to do it after repair and probably regulary...
May be it work also because cooking epoxy increase Tg where epoxy softened and allow delamination. I also like to strenghened eps surface, (where eps separate when delam) with some resin slurry penetration while i build board, think it help.
I don't think a board delaminates because the resin goes soft. Resin doesn't go soft. I believe delaminating happens more often because less resin is used on the first layer of cloth over the eps blank. More resin on blank will definitely help. Most delam repairs I have done is due to almost no resin sticking to the blank. This is the most critical part of a long lasting board. This is not where you want to save resin weight. Save resin on all the other layers. Delam repairs are not easy , dings are.
At tg epoxy soften a lot. For epoxy we use it's around 60?C where eps cells walls an collapse too. Critical temp for board structure stability. Epoxy with higher tg need cooking at tg, impossible over eps foam.
The ductility that occurs at tg / gtt is not so relevant as at 60c the epoxy barely changes and it returns to the same state once cooler. I don't think it's relevant .. Otherwise we'd see surfboards all bent from being just in the car. We don't
I remember reading about 18ft skiff hulls warping in the boat park when they painted them a nice looking shade of black. Not saying a windsurf board is going to do that, there's a lot more "solid" material holding its shape. But it can happen.
It's what prompted them to manufacture them in nomex/pre preg carbon when they did their "one design" run of them.
With over 30 years of board shaping, construction and repair experience here's my 2 cents.....
I'm not a fan of Gortex vents, if salty water gets inside your board, this can block the vent. It just might take a while.
Delam is very rarely from minimal resin on the white foam, most delams I see have a layer of white foam balls stuck to the inside of the skin.
The delam is usually the white balls pulling apart from each other. If you play with EPS you'll see how easily the balls pull apart.
Screw vent plugs should remain open unless sailing. If closed the difference in the night minimum temp and the day maximum temp, will cause the board to expand and contract 365 times a year, Eventually those little white beads will pull apart.
If you keep the vent always closed and move your board on after a few years, you'll be fine.
I'm also not a fan of black boards in sunny little Oz.
Well I glad it's not just me that doesn't trust the vented plugs , I seal mine up with a drop of epoxy but never undo them as I don't think it's required in the uk temps.
Select to expand quoteSurfing Uk said..
Well I glad it's not just me that doesn't trust the vented plugs , I seal mine up with a drop of epoxy but never undo them as I don't think it's required in the uk temps.
It's not hot temps that's the problem, it's change of temp that does the damage
Select to expand quoteR1DER said..
With over 30 years of board shaping, construction and repair experience here's my 2 cents.....
I'm not a fan of Gortex vents, if salty water gets inside your board, this can block the vent. It just might take a while.
Delam is very rarely from minimal resin on the white foam, most delams I see have a layer of white foam balls stuck to the inside of the skin.
The delam is usually the white balls pulling apart from each other. If you play with EPS you'll see how easily the balls pull apart.
Screw vent plugs should remain open unless sailing. If closed the difference in the night minimum temp and the day maximum temp, will cause the board to expand and contract 365 times a year, Eventually those little white beads will pull apart.
If you keep the vent always closed and move your board on after a few years, you'll be fine.
I'm also not a fan of black boards in sunny little Oz.
Exactly for me delam occure because when hot eps expand and soften, lost some of the ever low cohesion between balls. At same time hot epoxy skin soften a little allowing eps deformation, fragile place of eps separate under in core pressure, it's mostly near the skin where it take more cycling forces. I see lot of eps epoxy thin single skin surfboards delam like this after staying in car in hot sun. Cooking cycle of epoxy allow it to keep more stiffness at higher temp.
Select to expand quotedecrepit said..Surfing Uk said..
Well I glad it's not just me that doesn't trust the vented plugs , I seal mine up with a drop of epoxy but never undo them as I don't think it's required in the uk temps.
It's not hot temps that's the problem, it's change of temp that does the damage
I'm just assuming that the temp change is a little more gradual in the uk? I didn't get an issue with any of my older boards from 2008 (or not that I know of ), however my boards are never left out on the beach or in a van etc.
