Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
I have not "been campaigning for for years"
Dutchies has a segregation agreement and has done for many years. WAKSA "enforce" it (sort of) and you have to be an ASKA or WAKSA member to kite there supposedly.
So no I am not campaigning - rather, reminding.
EDIT: OTOH yeah I am a fan of segregation IF one group is not disadvantaged. As long as there is still a wave there, or flatwater there, or whatever the local kiters seek, it simply makes sense for them to be separate and even better downwind. Coronation beach where I sail a lot is a classic example. With big flatwater expanse there are a lot of beginners to intermediate seeking the inside, lots of experts seeing the waves out the back. To have a downed beginners kite go through that, (when in Jan this year i counted 50 windsurfers and 30 kiters in only 300m of beach,) would be a disaster. So kites downwind and they are happy, so are we. No agro.
Seems some of you blokes come from an area with 10 kiters and 3 windsurfers taking turns on a point break and u all used to surf there for years before windsports. Its not like that here....
Dutchies has the added complication of a dangerous cliff, nearby road, a narrow keyhole windsurfers can use in their area, ocean paddlers and swimmers even when its 30kn etc etc. Thus the segregation agreement, which really is just plain commonsense to avoid conflict.
So Mark
Because you are have not given your findings on your investigation into this matter. Is it safe to assume that the sailboarder was pushing ROW and did the wrong thing by not holding his tack and turned left downwind causing the Collision
Yes there are other places in the world that have segregation. Langaban in the western cape of RSA is another place that has it over the Christmas holidays. But no sailboarders I came across use it as an excuse to cause collisions. And if you think WA or Dutchies get crowded you have no idea. I travel quite a lot and would say that more than 95% of the places I have been all the water users get along and follow the collision regulations.
Some of you have the right idea, talk to people in a reasonable manner and almost all will comply, very few people want to have agro when they are recreationally sailing.
Select to expand quoteIanR said..Mark _australia said..
I have not "been campaigning for for years"
Dutchies has a segregation agreement and has done for many years. WAKSA "enforce" it (sort of) and you have to be an ASKA or WAKSA member to kite there supposedly.
So no I am not campaigning - rather, reminding.
EDIT: OTOH yeah I am a fan of segregation IF one group is not disadvantaged. As long as there is still a wave there, or flatwater there, or whatever the local kiters seek, it simply makes sense for them to be separate and even better downwind. Coronation beach where I sail a lot is a classic example. With big flatwater expanse there are a lot of beginners to intermediate seeking the inside, lots of experts seeing the waves out the back. To have a downed beginners kite go through that, (when in Jan this year i counted 50 windsurfers and 30 kiters in only 300m of beach,) would be a disaster. So kites downwind and they are happy, so are we. No agro.
Seems some of you blokes come from an area with 10 kiters and 3 windsurfers taking turns on a point break and u all used to surf there for years before windsports. Its not like that here....
Dutchies has the added complication of a dangerous cliff, nearby road, a narrow keyhole windsurfers can use in their area, ocean paddlers and swimmers even when its 30kn etc etc. Thus the segregation agreement, which really is just plain commonsense to avoid conflict.
So Mark
Because you are have not given your findings on your investigation into this matter. Is it safe to assume that the sailboarder was pushing ROW and did the wrong thing by not holding his tack and turned left downwind causing the Collision
Yes there are other places in the world that have segregation. Langaban in the western cape of RSA is another place that has it over the Christmas holidays. But no sailboarders I came across use it as an excuse to cause collisions. And if you think WA or Dutchies get crowded you have no idea. I travel quite a lot and would say that more than 95% of the places I have been all the water users get along and follow the collision regulations.
Some of you have the right idea, talk to people in a reasonable manner and almost all will comply, very few people want to have agro when they are recreationally sailing.
IanR, I don't believe Mark is acting in any official capacity and nor is he purporting to have conducted a full investigation. He simply stated "...Now I know who "angry windsurfer" is, and the whole story from somebody else who was there I think the kiters need to stay downwind."
With the greatest respect, moreover on a construction of that statement , it also actually suggests the opposite of the assumption you are asserting regarding who was at fault. Neither you, Mark or I were there so I don't believe anyone should rush to conclusions nor can anyone make any findings of fault based on one side of the story, advanced by a kiter who has already admitted he only saw the aftermath and he did not see the incident.
It does highlight segregation as being a prudent risk mitigation strategy that has been working, consistent with local municipal regulations about launching, and which should be adhered to in the aim of reducing the risk of injury or death on the water. We all want to enjoy our sailing and sail safely so lets embrace this commonsense approach and move on.
RichardG we really are talking at cross purposes here. You guys are trying to make this about segregation. When really I think it's about ROW.
I get it. You are a supporter of the state of Israel and I think both you and Mark where pro the apartheid government in RSA. If you want segregation it's fine with me.
I had ROW drummed into me ove 35 years ago while I was a Sea Scout at deepwater point. It is the Law and I will stick with it. You guy do not have yellow diamond on the top of your masts that give you ROW at all times.
But I think I have a solution
If you guys start flying a pink flag with yellow polka dot and a big black P on it of at least 1 square meter. Kiters will Know you are Paranoid and with give you the right to pass upwind of us on every tack.
Segregation sometimes just makes sense. E.g. Swimmers and surf craft; cars and pedestrians; cars and bikes (where possible); Heavy vehicles and light vehicles on mine sites. There are many other sensible examples. Its not a human rights issue, its just common sense.
Ian, did I see you at Dutchies yesterday? When was the last time you were there?
Couldn't sail yesterday but watched at Dutchies for about an hour to see how people respect other water users.
Firstly, half the near misses I saw yesterday were because people don't look. From kiteboarders jibing onto a wave without looking over their shoulder first, sailboarders jibing without looking and kiteboarders jumping without looking to see who is down wind.
The second thing I noticed was that the majority of people simply seem to either have no clue when it comes to right of way rules or just don't care.
Throw into the mix a few "heroes" that need to kite downwind zig zagging between people launching.
Am I surprised? Not really. As someone else in this thread said, this really just reflects the general me first attitude most people exhibit on the road as well.
Select to expand quoteSparky said..
Ian, did I see you at Dutchies yesterday? When was the last time you were there?
Nah Mate not me I'm currently in Mauritius, I don't consider perth's wind chop to be waves. Last time I was there was in January this year
Select to expand quoteIanR said..
RichardG we really are talking at cross purposes here. You guys are trying to make this about segregation. When really I think it's about ROW.
I get it. You are a supporter of the state of Israel and I think both you and Mark where pro the apartheid government in RSA. If you want segregation it's fine with me.
I had ROW drummed into me ove 35 years ago while I was a Sea Scout at deepwater point. It is the Law and I will stick with it. You guy do not have yellow diamond on the top of your masts that give you ROW at all times.
But I think I have a solution
If you guys start flying a pink flag with yellow polka dot and a big black P on it of at least 1 square meter. Kiters will Know you are Paranoid and with give you the right to pass upwind of us on every tack.
Noted and Thanks. Sorry I am not an RSA apartheid supporter and I think that the type of political debate you are seeking to import here is irrelevant and infact it is best kept over in heavy weather. I don't see what Israel has to do with this debate not sure why you raise that although there are some good windsurfers and kiters in Israel and I believe they all get on.
You are, I hate to say it, sounding a bit "ONE EYE" d and jocular in your posts. 
You are on holiday in Mauritius so all is forgiven.
It would be better to approach this with some bigger picture understanding and embrace safety. I do believe in safety on the water and in following the rule of law including the laws under the Prevention of Collisions at Sea Regulations 1983 (WA) including rules 12 and 13 :
classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/consol_reg/pocasr1983435/s5.html
I was at Dutch Inn yesterday and enjoyed a sail and there were no incidents, as far as I can tell, with windsurfers including me even enjoying the break at Telephones, sailing in from the southern windsurfing launch area at the groyne. There was an Italian kiter launching at the groyne at Dutch Inn with his little baby and wife as support, but thankfully he was safety conscious and all worked out fine. No sign of the rogue angry blonde windsurfer however who may just be an urban legend. Thanks and Happy Sailing.
I would say Dutchies yesterday was far from ideal. You guys are being too polite. What I saw was inexperienced kiters in open water not yielding to starboard, not looking before turning and dropping their kites where windsurfers are coming in and out. (Some kiters were efficient and polite and were zero problem, a joy to sail with). We are very different beasts; different angles of tack, different turning curves, different acceleration and different top speeds. Yes, easy to avoid each other, but eventually things will happen. There's 20km of Coast north or south that we old dudes are less precious about. You would think a 200m stretch for us to ride our vintage wind machines would be not asking too much?
^^ +1
Thus - the segregation............... THAT THE KITERS AGREED TO AND LOVED AS MUCH AS WINDSURFERS ..... despite IanR attempting to stir up more hate.
If we all
(1) know the rules
(2) avoid the other person and think what would they like / want / how can I help them get the stoke
(3) stay in our own bloody area unless the wind dropped or you have gear failure etc or similar
Then life will be great. Seems some people just can't get it.
What it seems though is in general and in Perth one particular sport does not know #1, could not give a **** about #2 (albeit that stehsegler observed many windsurfers at fault so that's disappointing) so then we have to revert to #3.
But I get slammed for endorsing #3 (apparently its all I've said for many years).
Sad.
RichardG
Sorry you took the Israel, RSA comment that way I did mean it as a sarcastic funny.
Mark_australia
Im not trying to stir trouble. Or create hate.
I just think it's important we all know the rules and don't try and force ROW or use it as an excuse to run people down.
I think I may have had a run in with "Angry Windsurfer" many years ago when I strayed into an area that he considered to be a windsurfer only area when he came charging down wind screaming and shouting at me while both on starboard and attempted to throw his sail onto my head. Luckily I was nimble enough to avoid him. Or else he would have cause me serious injury. Again he did not really understand the rules of the water.
I and I'm sure other would like to hear your version of the WHOLE STORY as I think we could all gain something from it
Rules suck coz not many take the time to learn them!!!
Worth reading the WAKSA ROW rules too:
waksa.org.au/right-of-way-rules/
The following Right of Way guidelines should be adhered to when Kite Surfing:
There is no absolute right of way - All parties should take any action necessary to avoid a collision.
When two riders are on opposite tacks, the port tack rider shall alter course and/or kite position in order to keep clear of the starboard tack rider who should maintain the same course and speed.
When two or more riders are on the same tack with kite lines overlapped, the upwind rider(s) shall keep their kite high and the downwind rider(s) keep their kite low.
When two riders are on the same tack and are not overlapped, the rider behind shall ensure the rider ahead is aware of the rider approaching from behind.
Never deliberately manoeuvre into a right of way position so that it interferes with another water user. If you are behind another kite heading into the beach, turn early to allow the lead rider plenty of room to turn.
Always check for other water users before water-starting, jibing, relaunching a kite or recovering a board.
A rider shall not jump if there is any danger of possible collision with another rider.
When wave riding, the first rider on the face of a wave has right of way. This may override the starboard tack rule.
All riders should be aware of and abide by all applicable federal, state and local government laws.
(PS I'm a poley!)
Select to expand quoteIanR said..
I get it. You are a supporter of the state of Israel and I think both you and Mark where pro the apartheid government in RSA. If you want segregation it's fine with me.
"Segregation" schemes for watercraft exist in many places and in many different forms and they are part of the right of way rules you talk about.
