Background: Longtime bump and jump sailor, primarily foiling at this stage but am still looking to ride the fin at times, currently about 76kgs
Unfortunately, relative to my foil sessions where I am up most of the time, have zero problem staying up wind and foil through the majority of my gybes, my fin sessions these days seem to be a struggle. I spend most of my time trying to stay upwind, even when the tide is to my advantage.
My primary fin board is a 93L fanatic skate with a 22cm fin. I am not interested in backward sliding tricks (maybe if I could do them I would be).
Clearly foiling is much easier than windsurfing, but I am wondering if a different windsurfing board would make my windsurfing experience more enjoyable. An ideal board for me would do the following
1) Goes up wind easily, so I can mess around and enjoy my session without spending all my energy getting back to where I started.
2) Planes easily
3) Turns off the back foot
4) Jumps
Example from the other day:
From 1.30 to 2.30 I was foiling and from 2.30 to 3.30 I was windsurfing. Wind was initially NW then more WNW I came off the foil because I was kind of lit so figure that windsurfing would be the go and grabbed my 93L fanatic skate and bagged out my sail a bit. As you can see the wind dropped a bit at that time so maybe that was the problem, but is windsurfing gear that sensitive to a minor drop in wind?
Not only was I on and off the plane on the fin, you can see how most of my time was spent getting back up wind.
I have never really enjoyed the 93L skate, upgrading to a 22cm fin helped. I enjoyed my older 100L skate quite a bit better, but don't really dig that frontfoot turning that most freestyle boards need. My favorite rides recently have been powered up sessions on my old RRD single fin wave boards (wave cults 85 and 76). I also had quite a bit of fun in the past blasting on exocet kona longboards eg.
More wind.
But a board that can handle more wind with a bigger sail and fin than the 93 Skate.
I have a 110 skate, mostly with a 32cm swept pointer, powered with a 28 cm low aspect pointer.
But my 95, 102, 109, 111 slalom fast freerides go upwind much higher and waay faster, due to bigger blades, bigger sails, and outboard straps.
I don't jump the 2 bigger boards.
I actually don't jump until I am powered on an 85 liter board and 5.2
Jumping in less wind is a waste of time and energy with no reward.
I'd start with a much bigger fin . No small board off the plane or just planing is going to go upwind well.
Oh, most rec foiling gear goes upwind better than any windsurfing besides powered slalom and formula.
In steady 20, a slalom board and 6.5 sail can almost stay with rec foil upwind...SShot 125 and I76, but the wind has to be steady. Now, I'm also lightweight, where the advantages of foil is MUCH smaller than for our heavier buds.
Firstly, foils go upwind well because when they are creating a lot of lift you go fast - and this allows you to point high if you want to.
When you are not so powered up the foil is lower in the water and so the foil and mast become like a massive fin, allowing to get upwind even when not flying on the foil. At slogging speeds the foil acts like a massive yacht keel.
On a windsurf board it's a bit different. We tend to use small fins for better speed and the board goes upwind on hydrodynamic lift - which is a mixture of the lift from the fin and the sideways resistance of the board itself.
To get upwind efficiently you need to be well powered up, with board speed almost giving you too much lift from the fin.
If not well powered up then a longer fin can help, although some bigger/wider/fatter freeride fins also slow you down with extra drag.
On a freestyle board we go upwind easily simply because those board shapes plane easily, regardless of fin size - although this requires good, light-footed technique.
To plane early, in marginal wind, you need a board that has a slalom rockerline, hard rails, and a volume that is your weight in kilos + about 25. (So a 75kilo sailor needs to be on a 75 + 25 = 100 litre board for good early planing in marginal wind)
When not planing you can still go upwind, even with a small fin, but we do this by standing well forwards on the board and burying the windward rail which then acts as a keel, offering sideways resistance.
I agree with iMax the fin is too small
For old single fin wave boards, we'd have used a 25 or 26 on that board.
Yes freetylers use little fins, doesn't mean that skate won't benefit from more fin for B&J or freeride use.
See if you can try something like the MFC Freewave 260 to 280.
So for that session more wind or more sail power. When it did come up a bit I was able to make up all my lost ground in one reach.
For the topic question "characteristics of boards that will plane and go upwind more easily" or as basher put it "to plane early, in marginal wind" I should look for:
More volume
Slalom (flatter?) rocker line (sounds like me finding a marginal planning wavy board is unlikely)
More fin
What else?
I have been mainly foiling the last three years. When I fin on my freeride 105 board in marginal winds, I feel it is so much struggle compared to foiling in marginal winds (formula board and infinity 86 and starboard race foil). I agree with LeeD that pointing upwind is not a problem for foiling even in very marginal conditions, whereas finning, the only thing I can do in those same conditions is just try to point high all the time and use the biggest sail and fin the board can carry.
technique and rigging can help a lot.
point higher when dredging and bear off slightly in the gusts plus learn to tack.
reduce downhaul then move your mast base back and try a 26cm fin.
technique and rigging can help a lot.
lift your boom and try seat harness or pull down on the boom more with a palm down grip.
point higher when dredging and bear off slightly in the gusts plus learn to tack.
reduce downhaul then move your mast base back and try a 26cm fin.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
I agree with iMax the fin is too small
For old single fin wave boards, we'd have used a 25 or 26 on that board.
Yes freetylers use little fins, doesn't mean that skate won't benefit from more fin for B&J or freeride use.
See if you can try something like the MFC Freewave 260 to 280.
Look what I found in the garage. I have never used them on that board. The original fin for that skate was 18cm, then I got the 22cm, which made it tolerable
Wasn't sure if it was style, function or skill that limited most freestylers to small fins. Sound like you are suggesting there is nothing wrong with using a big wave oriented fin on a freestyle board. I was kind of thinking that if I need such a big fin to make the skate work and that as I dont really do the sliding tricks, maybe I should just get a more bump and jump oriented board.......
Informal comparison...2 miles upwind from Berkeley to Teasure Island.
Formula 9.2 sail and 66 F4 fin.....18 minutes.
Tillo 6.6 sail and 900 sq cm foil, 100 mast..16.5 minutes.
Late -90's Course Slalom Z, 40 Meritex, 6.0 3 cam...26 minutes.
'12 JP SS 109, stock 38 fin, 6.0 no cam sail..25 minutes.
I'm sure a competitive pro on slalom gear could make it under 21 minutes.
You Skate has a Slalom rocker, what it doesn't have is the width or bottom contours to carry a big sail in choppy water. That doesn't sounds like what you're after anyways.
I say try it with those fins and see.
At 73 kgs., biggest fin I use on Skate 110 is 13.5 FinWorks Wave blade.
Most sailing with 22 fs or 12" swept pointer.
I was thinking about this the other day while speed sailing with a 90L board and 20cm delta fine (I'm 90kg). We do a lot of bearing way down wind in the gusts, then pointing to do it all again. I was thinking that my ability to point was about the same being out of the straps and slogging upwind, vs getting on the plane and and really diving upwind. More often I seem to use slogging, so maybe that allows be to point a little higher.
Slogging works when well powered, go slow, go high.
But VMG favors bigger fin, planing, low drag, and straps.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Oh, most rec foiling gear goes upwind better than any windsurfing besides powered slalom and formula.
In steady 20, a slalom board and 6.5 sail can almost stay with rec foil upwind...SShot 125 and I76, but the wind has to be steady.
That's not my experience - the Infinity 76 with 90cm mast and wavesail eats slalom sailors (of equal ability) upwind, especially in bigger ocean swells.
The foil upwind angle is just so much better - speed through the water is probably similar 
I see lot's of people switching to foil. What's the thing about it?
Easier, slower and more dangerous in case of a fall?
Yup stick the big MFC FSW fin in it and it will be a different board. You will be riding the fin like a slalom board and get upwind heaps better
Example from the other day:
From 1.30 to 2.30 I was foiling and from 2.30 to 3.30 I was windsurfing. Wind was initially NW then more WNW I came off the foil because I was kind of lit so figure that windsurfing would be the go and grabbed my 93L fanatic skate and bagged out my sail a bit. As you can see the wind dropped a bit at that time so maybe that was the problem, but is windsurfing gear that sensitive to a minor drop in wind?
Where is the wind meter located? If the wind went from NW to WNW is it blowing over the buildings over East Palo Alto. Once out into the Bay is it windier? The meter says lowest speed 11 mph, average 16, max 22. I work in knots, so divide by 1.15 = 9.5/13.9/19.1. in knots. If the meter is on top of a pole 6m high you can knock off 10% as its windier higher up. If the meter is next to the land it will be gusty and give a wide spread from low to high. Where I sail the meter is in the middle of Poole Harbour away from the land and the spread from low to high is usually 6-8 knots. Is the meter at the airport? Palo Alto or Moffat airport?
If so, I guess the wind a bit further out into the bay would be averaging 15 knots, low 12 max 18 knots at the water level.
I guess the water would be flat so I (78kg) would be on a 7.5m Ezzy Lion twin cam and 110l 67cm wide Exocet S3 freerace board, 40cm carbon F-Hot fin (that board needs a bigger fin). If the wide was an actual 13 knot average, 8.5m, 125l 80cm wide, 46cm fin.
To go upwind (I often sail in an area with currents so same requirement) I would want a board with:
Wider tail than 'normal'
Use a slightly larger upright fin
Sharp rails at the back of the board.
Deeper boxy rails.
Straps outboard on the rails.
Clearly foiling is much easier than windsurfing, but I am wondering if a different windsurfing board would make my windsurfing experience more enjoyable. An ideal board for me would do the following
1) Goes up wind easily, so I can mess around and enjoy my session without spending all my energy getting back to where I started.
2) Planes easily
3) Turns off the back foot
4) Jumps
For 3 & 4, my kit wouldn't be so good. At that spot do you get a swell coming down the bay to jump and gybe on? I guess you sail elsewhere as well.
If you want something more bump and jump then a board like Exocet Cross, Tabou 3S, Patrik F-Cross might be suitable. They have shaper rails at the back and can be used with more upright fins than FSW boards. Freestyle boards are looking more dedicated for slidey tricks than yesteryear.
Select to expand quoteBasher said..
To plane early, in marginal wind, you need a board that has a slalom rockerline, hard rails, and a volume that is your weight in kilos + about 25. (So a 75kilo sailor needs to be on a 75 + 25 = 100 litre board for good early planing in marginal wind)
With a 100l/63cm board, the largest comfortable sized sail would be 6.5m for recreational sailors. Not big enough in 15 knots average (measured on the water at head height). If you want to blast around on flat water having fun instead of struggling to get upwind and being slow downwind I'd want a 110l/67cm and 7.5m. A lot or recreational sailors use larger boards than me with a 7.5m, but I dont like a too wide board.
I tried a 106 and 88 JP freestyle. The difference is amazing. The 106 in 13-18 knots with a 5.0 is a planing monster. While the 88 felt even smaller than some 87L wave boards! So ny take is the 100 performs much better than the 93 in light winds
The original question asked for suggestions for a board that does the following:
1) Goes up wind easily, so I can mess around and enjoy my session without spending all my energy getting back to where I started.
2) Planes easily
3) Turns off the back foot
4) Jumps
The answer for me is a freestyle board - at sailor weight in kilos + 25, which for me is a 100 litre board, probably between 62 and 64cms wide.
You then have to decide what sail and fin you want with that.
We go upwind when well powered up but I'd still be thinking of a 5.5 as the biggest sail, rather than a 6.5m, and that's because you don't do much jumping with a big sail, or turn fast.
Obviously, if the wind is really light then you do need a bigger rig but then you probably need a bigger board as well. A relatively wide slalom board, with a long fin and a 7.5m rig, would obviously be much better for upwind work.
But that is not what is being asked for here.
I tend to use a 5.2 as my biggest sail on a 100 litre freestyle board. That goes upwind just fine with a 23cms fin, but my recommendation would be for a vertical (onshore) fin rather than a swept back (side shore) wave fin. Fins with a fairly vertical leading edge, or 5degrees swept back, will create better lift for upwind work, whilst not being so good for turning.
You keep the mast foot well back in the track to go upwind - as that brings the rig upright and nearer to this relatively short fin. (This is almost the opposite thinking from when using a slalom set up where you are trying to hold down the torque from railing fin, where you often need to shift the mast foot further forwards. )
When slightly underpowered on your relatively small sail the other tip for upwind work is to ease the sail downhaul a bit, to tighten the sail leach. Upwind work also requires positive outhaul.
I've simply described my own light wind set up here. In summer I frequently sail upwind to the next windsurfing beach, a distance of about 8 miles, usually on a 20knot wind day. With less than 20knots you'd want to be on the foil.
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..
Example from the other day:
From 1.30 to 2.30 I was foiling and from 2.30 to 3.30 I was windsurfing. Wind was initially NW then more WNW I came off the foil because I was kind of lit so figure that windsurfing would be the go and grabbed my 93L fanatic skate and bagged out my sail a bit. As you can see the wind dropped a bit at that time so maybe that was the problem, but is windsurfing gear that sensitive to a minor drop in wind?
Where is the wind meter located? If the wind went from NW to WNW is it blowing over the buildings over East Palo Alto. Once out into the Bay is it windier? The meter says lowest speed 11 mph, average 16, max 22. I work in knots, so divide by 1.15 = 9.5/13.9/19.1. in knots. If the meter is on top of a pole 6m high you can knock off 10% as its windier higher up. If the meter is next to the land it will be gusty and give a wide spread from low to high. Where I sail the meter is in the middle of Poole Harbour away from the land and the spread from low to high is usually 6-8 knots. Is the meter at the airport? Palo Alto or Moffat airport?
If so, I guess the wind a bit further out into the bay would be averaging 15 knots, low 12 max 18 knots at the water level.
I guess the water would be flat so I (78kg) would be on a 7.5m Ezzy Lion twin cam and 110l 67cm wide Exocet S3 freerace board, 40cm carbon F-Hot fin (that board needs a bigger fin). If the wide was an actual 13 knot average, 8.5m, 125l 80cm wide, 46cm fin.
To go upwind (I often sail in an area with currents so same requirement) I would want a board with:
Wider tail than 'normal'
Use a slightly larger upright fin
Sharp rails at the back of the board.
Deeper boxy rails.
Straps outboard on the rails.
Clearly foiling is much easier than windsurfing, but I am wondering if a different windsurfing board would make my windsurfing experience more enjoyable. An ideal board for me would do the following
1) Goes up wind easily, so I can mess around and enjoy my session without spending all my energy getting back to where I started.
2) Planes easily
3) Turns off the back foot
4) Jumps
For 3 & 4, my kit wouldn't be so good. At that spot do you get a swell coming down the bay to jump and gybe on? I guess you sail elsewhere as well.
If you want something more bump and jump then a board like Exocet Cross, Tabou 3S, Patrik F-Cross might be suitable. They have shaper rails at the back and can be used with more upright fins than FSW boards. Freestyle boards are looking more dedicated for slidey tricks than yesteryear.
Thanks Phil. That wind meter is on land so probably 3-5 knots more on the water. We do get wind swell, that can become pretty sizable with the ebb tide in the bay
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Yup stick the big MFC FSW fin in it and it will be a different board. You will be riding the fin like a slalom board and get upwind heaps better
Cheers. I will let you know how it goes
Select to expand quoteBasher said..
The original question asked for suggestions for a board that does the following:
1) Goes up wind easily, so I can mess around and enjoy my session without spending all my energy getting back to where I started.
2) Planes easily
3) Turns off the back foot
4) Jumps
The answer for me is a freestyle board - at sailor weight in kilos + 25, which for me is a 100 litre board, probably between 62 and 64cms wide.
You then have to decide what sail and fin you want with that.
We go upwind when well powered up but I'd still be thinking of a 5.5 as the biggest sail, rather than a 6.5m, and that's because you don't do much jumping with a big sail, or turn fast.
Obviously, if the wind is really light then you do need a bigger rig but then you probably need a bigger board as well. A relatively wide slalom board, with a long fin and a 7.5m rig, would obviously be much better for upwind work.
But that is not what is being asked for here.
I tend to use a 5.2 as my biggest sail on a 100 litre freestyle board. That goes upwind just fine with a 23cms fin, but my recommendation would be for a vertical (onshore) fin rather than a swept back (side shore) wave fin. Fins with a fairly vertical leading edge, or 5degrees swept back, will create better lift for upwind work, whilst not being so good for turning.
You keep the mast foot well back in the track to go upwind - as that brings the rig upright and nearer to this relatively short fin. (This is almost the opposite thinking from when using a slalom set up where you are trying to hold down the torque from railing fin, where you often need to shift the mast foot further forwards. )
When slightly underpowered on your relatively small sail the other tip for upwind work is to ease the sail downhaul a bit, to tighten the sail leach. Upwind work also requires positive outhaul.
I've simply described my own light wind set up here. In summer I frequently sail upwind to the next windsurfing beach, a distance of about 8 miles, usually on a 20knot wind day. With less than 20knots you'd want to be on the foil.
Thanks again. I did have the downhaul looser than normal, but need to mess with the universal more. Generally I just put it in middle.
For some reason I am super particular about my settings on the foil, mostly because it is very obvious when something is wrong. Successful settings are less obvious on the windsurfer but I probably have 20:1 foil to windsurf ratio so I have many more opportunities to tweak my foil kit.
Select to expand quoteLoreni said..
I see lot's of people switching to foil. What's the thing about it?
Easier, slower and more dangerous in case of a fall?
Carve the smallest swell, crank upwind like a Formula board using wave sails, huge wind range on one setup, not particularly tiring. Lots of reasons.
People seem to have been chasing a light wind bump and jump setup for years unsuccessfully, foiling has made it possible.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..Loreni said..
I see lot's of people switching to foil. What's the thing about it?
Easier, slower and more dangerous in case of a fall?
Carve the smallest swell, crank upwind like a Formula board using wave sails, huge wind range on one setup, not particularly tiring. Lots of reasons.
People seem to have been chasing a light wind bump and jump setup for years unsuccessfully, foiling has made it possible.
The foil is especially good at dealing with up and down wind. I am always telling windsurfers that it isn't gusty or holey when I come of the water because you notice wind variation way less.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
So for that session more wind or more sail power. When it did come up a bit I was able to make up all my lost ground in one reach.
For the topic question "characteristics of boards that will plane and go upwind more easily" or as basher put it "to plane early, in marginal wind" I should look for:
More volume
Slalom (flatter?) rocker line (sounds like me finding a marginal planning wavy board is unlikely)
More fin
What else?
IMO more fin for the sail to go upwind - marginally powered. That Skate 93 will go upwind very well & plane very quick for it's size, but to get upwind easily marginally powered, you need either more fin or really good technique. The 22cm fin would get you upwind in a hurry with a 4.2 but with a 5.2 it will be more work. Go with those FW fins - I have used a 26 on my FS board for marginally planing on a 5.0 & goes upwind very well.
I'm currently switching off between slalom gear and foiling between sessions. The difference in being able to go upwind is pretty amazing. On slalom gear, upwind is easy only when (a) fully powered and (b) on a sufficiently large fin. Even then, the foil gets better angles, both upwind and downwind. If I have just enough power to plane most of the time on the slalom gear, going upwind becomes a pain. I'm only a mediocre slalom sailor, but my foiling skills are perhaps even worse.
It's worse on freestyle gear, unless you're either a very good windsurfer, or you put in a much larger fin. On my Skate 110, a high quality 26 cm fin has me pinching upwind most of the time, unless owerpowered or close to it. I have to go to a 30 cm fin if I want easy upwind. These are high-quality weed fins, with just slightly lower upwind ability than a decent pointer.
I think foiling ruins the fun of freeriding on a freestyle board a bit. Going for speed, fully powered, is still exciting, but the usual back and forth on a Skate that had me fascinated for many years is a tad boring now. My wife rarely touched her Skate once she started foiling, and almost never touches it now that she wings. She still hops on a slalom/speed board, though, when the wind is strong.
