Having owned a 7.0 Mach 2 and currently a 7.0 Mach 4 (and also a Patrik 110 board), I can make the following observations:
1. The M4 is a bit better than the M2....more forgiving
2. It is essential to have the right mast for these sails...Apex or Apex Pro 430
3. They are pretty fool proof to rig...pretty much work on recommended settings
4. A 37cm pointer on your 110 with that sail is probably a bit too much (esp at your size)...try something slightly shorter - I use Tribal fins and they are excellent...on this combo either a Tribal 33WS or 36 carbon pointer (SL3 I think)
5. Try varying the mast foot position...start all the way forward and move back until comfy
6. I am around 94 KG and 6'2" so the 7.0 is higher wind for me...I use my 7.8 M3 more often
Good luck but experiment a bit more...
Proving big sails have their place, 10 to 11 knots, 9.4OD on fox 120 with Delta XT50 28cm fin. The wind was dead onshore making getting away from the shallow weedy banks along the shore tricky. You will have to try ignore the kiter I had no control over the drone.
Select to expand quoteBen1973 said..
Proving big sails have their place, 10 to 11 knots, 9.4OD on fox 120 with Delta XT50 28cm fin. The wind was dead onshore making getting away from the shallow weedy banks along the shore tricky. You will have to try ignore the kiter I had no control over the drone.
Which kiter?
I have always found the range of big sails to be better than anything else. I do some raceboarding, and is pretty much stuck with a 9.5m from 2 to 15+m/s. What I do there to handle the really strong wind is a lot of downhaul and loosen the top 3 or 4 battens. Loosening the battens gives me easily 5m/s extra range. On slalom gear you will probably not as much as an advantage as the sails are way more loose to begin with. Btw it is much easier to hold big sails on a big board. So I sail with a bigger sail on my by big slalom board compared to my small in the same wind.
Today i used both my 5.6 and my 5.0 Patrik race sails on the same 100 litre Tabou Speedster both with the 33 Asymmetric Tribal fin.
Wind was 15 to 30 knots.
Was able to hold the 5.6 with lots of downhaul but no fun in the gusts and felt quite physical out there.
Then rigged the 5m with a little less downhaul than the 5.6 and wow awesome fun.
Super light feel especially with the lighter 140 -190 X9 boom which is 400g lighter than my bigger Enigma boom which i used with the 5.6m
5m is considerably lighter also. The whole rig including base comes in at around 9.4 kgs which is about as light as you get, i think.
Not just the weight but the feel of the smaller sail is so much more throw about.
Barely off the plane.
A few of the big guys were on 7m, others on 6.2m. but for my 70kgs 5m was perfect.
Going to use it lots this summer when the wind is up.
No point trying to be a hero using a bigger sail when there is no need.
Select to expand quotePcdefender said..
Used my 7m Mach 2 a few days ago in 10 knots up to 20 knots and the physicality of it compared to my next sail size down a 5.6m was really stark.
Packed up after an hour as i was not enjoying sailing despite the wind still being good.
The weight of the 7m M2 is 5.4 kgs the same as my 5.6 Patrik but it feels heavier perhaps as its catching a lot more wind - lol.
Hated it in the 20 knot gusts despite having lots of downhaul.
It was fast enough but its going up for sale now.
Also disliked my Patrik 7m for the very same reason.
On my Patrik 110 with a 37 carbon fin i struggle big time to lift the windward rail with a 7m as i feel the sideways force created by the bigger sail considerably reduces the lift of the board.
With my 5.6 on the same board and fin the lift of the board is much greater which also means sailing upwind is a breeze which adds considerably to the enjoyment of the sport.
The more the windward rail lifts - the easier i find to sail upwind.
Realized i would rather be on / off the plane with my 5.6 than on the plane all the time with my 7m as the feel is so much nicer with my smaller sail.
Going to try my NP Evo 4 6.4m as a light wind option.
Just not convinced anything bigger than 5.6m really works for 70 kg sailors unless the wind is very marginal. 6.4m at a push.
Using a bigger board to get going earlier detracts from the feel less than using a bigger sail.
I see some wing ding or use a foil on the light days which is another option.
I just noticed this thread. At 68Kg (ok 70) I always had trouble with anything bigger than 7.0, although 6.5/6.6 for me has been the go to sail in the San Francisco Bay Area medium wind days. People in the 90-110Kg range have no idea of the problem!
I used to have HSM GPS 6.6 and the difference from a 5.2-5.4, was significant, with the GPS 7.3 in light air another significant size up. But the problem was that the 7.3 was very hard to manage the second the wind picked up. I tried a Switchblade 7.3, a Goya Mark 2 7.2. Same story. So I switched to Point-7 ACX, and suddenly I was not overpowered by the heavy unyielding sail any longer. 6.5 and 7.5 ACXs are completely fine in overpowered conditions.
The other side of the story. The board. You need to get one that works at our weight. I owned an Isonic 111, a Patrik 100, a Carbon Art 100, Futura 71, no matter ... too big: I cannot take them where they need to be. Your Patrik 110 is big for us. I have now a Patrik 122 and it works great as a light air board but ... I use it severely under-powered! It is a board that would come alive with a 8.5, 100 Kg pilot, I go out with it in 12 knots and a 6.8, quick to retreat if the wind comes up!!!! Only slalom board that ever worked in overpowered conditions for me was a Carbon Art 52 wide ...
But now ... enter the AV Modena 60 wide by 88 liters (!), together with the Point-7 ACX and recently ACZ 6.8. Without repeating myself you can read about it here www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/AV-Boards#2779414. In a nutshell this is what really works. I do not get overpowered by the board or sails, I am in control all the time, the board is on rails, flying on the fin with no trouble.
Just saying: at our weight you need to find what works keeping in mind that boards and sails do get better! For me the trick is to go as small as I can with the board, the new shapes short and wide, volume in the back, scooped deck and pinched tail help a lot, and as big as possible with the sail. The Modena 88 liters with 5.8 and 6.8 covers quite a stunning range. But I am sure there are other combos that work.
Small is good, although we would never win a PWA race.
PS Wings? forget wings ... they just seem to like to be standing still.
Sailed today on the Swan River in 10 to 24 knots averaging around 16 knots.
5.6m Patrik race sail with my 100 Tabou Speedster and 34 Lockwood carbon fin.
No need for a bigger sail despite the large lulls - its all about the fun factor these days.
Swapped to my 110 Patrik with my 37 fin but then the wind picked up a bit and not as smooth in the chop as the smaller board so i swapped back after 20 minutes.
Can see me sailing the whole summer without using anything bigger than my 5.6m.
So much easier for gybing for the less skilled and you can sail for hours without coming home exhausted.
Want to cut down a super thick foiled carbon weed fin to a 37 cm pointer one day to see if it lowers my planing threshold with my 110.
It will be slow for top end but the increased lift should improve the low range.
I agree that it is all about the fun factor.
This weekend we had gusty 12-18knots and I used my trusty Hypersonic 96l (from 2004) and a Severne M1 7.8m^2 sail. A lovely lightweight sail, just blasting around, cruising through lulls and accelerating in the gust. Pure sensation of freedom. :)
Yesterday i used my 6.4m NP Evo 5 or something. Used to be Snides sail.
110 Patrik hollow and 37 Zfin. Wind was 12 to 16 knots i guess.
Rigged it with a 430 Maui hardtop race mast from 10 years ago and the rotation was excellent.
NP X9 140-190 boom near full extension worked great also.
Never off the plane in two hours. Gets going in 12 knots and goes thru 10 knot lulls.
A big step up in low end power over my 5.6m. Very moderate downhaul and max negative.
So much easier upwind than my 7m that feels too big to handle for me.
I wish I could say I don't like big sails ,but when the wind is light you just have to use them ,
I love using smaller sails it's a lot easy for gybing sheeting in and just a great balance ,I guess that why I go to
WA so much to get the strong wind ,Here's a vid my mate droned of light wind on a 8,5 cheetah 130 naish
Big sails feel great, being powered up in open water with no chop is awesome, but they have to be tuned correctly. Its proportional, if a big sail is tuned poorly you notice it far more than on a small sail that is tuned poorly.
So if they feel crap its more to do with the way its rigged than the size.
Big sails teach you how to tune a rig right.
Select to expand quotePcdefender said..
Yesterday i used my 6.4m NP Evo 5 or something. Used to be Snides sail.
110 Patrik hollow and 37 Zfin. Wind was 12 to 16 knots i guess.
Rigged it with a 430 Maui hardtop race mast from 10 years ago and the rotation was excellent.
NP X9 140-190 boom near full extension worked great also.
Never off the plane in two hours. Gets going in 12 knots and goes thru 10 knot lulls.
A big step up in low end power over my 5.6m. Very moderate downhaul and max negative.
So much easier upwind than my 7m that feels too big to handle for me.
Glad you had a good day on the bigger sail! ....That is the Wrong mast though... you will get MUCH better range out of the NP mast.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Big sails feel great, being powered up in open water with no chop is awesome, but they have to be tuned correctly. Its proportional, if a big sail is tuned poorly you notice it far more than on a small sail that is tuned poorly.
So if they feel crap its more to do with the way its rigged than the size.
Big sails teach you how to tune a rig right.
and when to flip the sail when gybing
Sailed today with my big sail 6.4 NP Evo 5 on the river in what felt like 18 to 23 knots but according to the SB graph was a good bit less.
Had a dog of a day as i was overpowered. Had it twisted off to the 5th batten down.
Had trouble pulling in the backhand to initiate gybes especially in the gusts. Sail has too much power for me unless the conditions are light.
Board was harder to trim resulting in a slower top speed.
Waited till 6-15pm when the wind dropped to around 14 to 15 knots and the sail felt magic again.
Dropped the downhaul a little also
The glide through the lulls is so much better than with my 5.6 when the wind is light.
Today i have a new appreciation for my 5.6 but there is a place for big sails in light conditions.
Key is not to go too big as when the wind drops below a certain level, say 11 knots windsurfing using an oversize sail is not fun anyway.
A 6.4 race sail should not be a problem in 20 knots, it is likely designed for higher wind-strengths than that.
You should not have to change the down-haul setting on a race sail, as the wind changes. Once you find the optimum (strong wind) downhaul setting, you then use the same in light winds while adjusting the power from the sail by using an adjustable (on-the-fly) out-haul.
Select to expand quoteSurferKris said..
A 6.4 race sail should not be a problem in 20 knots, it is likely designed for higher wind-strengths than that.
You should not have to change the down-haul setting on a race sail, as the wind changes. Once you find the optimum (strong wind) downhaul setting, you then use the same in light winds while adjusting the power from the sail by using an adjustable (on-the-fly) out-haul.
The difference in feel that outhaul makes when you adjust it on the fly is sudden and obvious, worth doing with cammed sails it seems. On a foil especially it can make a difficult to control upwind run into something much more tame from pulling some outhaul. Downwind giving it some belly also gives it noticeably more speed and angle...
Select to expand quotePcdefender said..
Sailed today with my big sail 6.4 NP Evo 5 on the river in what felt like 18 to 23 knots but according to the SB graph was a good bit less.
Had a dog of a day as i was overpowered. Had it twisted off to the 5th batten down.
Had trouble pulling in the backhand to initiate gybes especially in the gusts. Sail has too much power for me unless the conditions are light.
Board was harder to trim resulting in a slower top speed.
Waited till 6-15pm when the wind dropped to around 14 to 15 knots and the sail felt magic again.
Dropped the downhaul a little also
The glide through the lulls is so much better than with my 5.6 when the wind is light.
Today i have a new appreciation for my 5.6 but there is a place for big sails in light conditions.
Key is not to go too big as when the wind drops below a certain level, say 11 knots windsurfing using an oversize sail is not fun anyway.
That is the Hard top mast. It was twisting too low, too soon. The proper mast would have twisted in a progressive way - giving much more speed & control.
True, but what i lose in top end control i should gain in low end power and i cannot afford another mast.
Only planning on using the sail in 10 to 15 knot days with moderate downhaul.
My 5.6 works a dream on my 110 also, i just need a little more wind.
Swapping the 5.6 to the 100 board i can use it in stronger winds again.
When the wind is averaging anything above 20 knots i now reach for my 5m.
What i most like about the 6.4 over my 7m which i am planning on not using again is i can point upwind effortlessly. The feel is also nicer.
The 6.4 trims the 110 higher out the water.
At 70 kgs max i get going on this combo so early anyway.
Yesterday at Melville in warm conditions and near perfect wind i counted only 3 windsurfers out the whole afternoon - incredible.
Around a dozen plus wing dingers and 10 or so kiters. Perhaps one or two foilers
Who could have ever imagined it.
Select to expand quotePcdefender said..
True, but what i lose in top end control i should gain in low end power and i cannot afford another mast.
That is deceptive, with the wrong mast and too little downhaul the sail will pull harder in the hands and it can feel like it is easier to get onto the plane. But that is mainly a technique thing, once onto the plane the sail will not work properly and it will not have the ease and top speed of a properly rigged sail.
Maybe the title of the thread should be "mismatched mast and sails poorly rigged feel crap"
Select to expand quoteMaddlad said..
Lets just say PCDefender likes to do things a little differently than others.. 
Under statement of the week
I remember borrowing a 400 NP flextop mast for my KA 5.6 and honestly i hated it.
Through the lulls the performance was very poor, and the feel was less responsive as in lacking power.
For really powered up sailing off the wind i am sure it would be a lot easier to handle.
My 6.4 with the stiff mast pulls like a horse but i accept it would be easier to hold with a softer mast.
Interestingly, I tried rigging it with a Severne Enigma 430 mast and the rotation was impossible.
With the Maui race mast the 4 cambers rotate in unison with just a moderate pull of the backhand.
Getting 4 cambers to rotate as you flick the sail over without having to pull the backhand in is a bit of a dream.
Doing planing gybes is sure to be easier.
All of my severne race sails from the last 10 years or so will rotate very well on the correct mast. I think it is the longer cams that has really been a game changer here.
I guess we can all lead the horse to the water, but we cannot make it drink....
Select to expand quotePcdefender said..
I remember borrowing a 400 NP flextop mast for my KA 5.6 and honestly i hated it.
Through the lulls the performance was very poor, and the feel was less responsive as in lacking power.
For really powered up sailing off the wind i am sure it would be a lot easier to handle.
My 6.4 with the stiff mast pulls like a horse but i accept it would be easier to hold with a softer mast.
Interestingly, I tried rigging it with a Severne Enigma 430 mast and the rotation was impossible.
With the Maui race mast the 4 cambers rotate in unison with just a moderate pull of the backhand.
Getting 4 cambers to rotate as you flick the sail over without having to pull the backhand in is a bit of a dream.
Doing planing gybes is sure to be easier.
So the only picture im getting here is that your under downhauled "big sail" doesn't work well with just about every mast you've tried, none of which are the actual mast that its meant to be rigged on? Did i miss anything?
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..Pcdefender said..
I remember borrowing a 400 NP flextop mast for my KA 5.6 and honestly i hated it.
Through the lulls the performance was very poor, and the feel was less responsive as in lacking power.
For really powered up sailing off the wind i am sure it would be a lot easier to handle.
My 6.4 with the stiff mast pulls like a horse but i accept it would be easier to hold with a softer mast.
Interestingly, I tried rigging it with a Severne Enigma 430 mast and the rotation was impossible.
With the Maui race mast the 4 cambers rotate in unison with just a moderate pull of the backhand.
Getting 4 cambers to rotate as you flick the sail over without having to pull the backhand in is a bit of a dream.
Doing planing gybes is sure to be easier.
So the only picture im getting here is that your under downhauled "big sail" doesn't work well with just about every mast you've tried, none of which are the actual mast that its meant to be rigged on? Did i miss anything?
You know who this is dont you? Why are you surprised? hahaha :P
