I tried to find a gif of one of the gp 50s capsizing, as it would've been a more distinct eg of rig induced roll momentum, but you can see in this one, before the boat heads skyward, it's starting to tip to leeward under the rig load. We don't suffer that dilemma. Bear aways can be quite scary/sketchy on skiffs. if you don't get the timing right, or you get an unlucky gust, you're at the mercy of the sail.
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..I tried to find a gif of one of the gp 50s capsizing, as it would've been a more distinct eg of rig induced roll momentum, but you can see in this one, before the boat heads skyward, it's starting to tip to leeward under the rig load. We don't suffer that dilemma. Bear aways can be quite scary/sketchy on skiffs. if you don't get the timing right, or you get an unlucky gust, you're at the mercy of the sail.
They ventilated the rudder and lost both yaw and pitch control. Not really applicable to a windfoil application
Select to expand quotejdfoils said..Subsonic said..I tried to find a gif of one of the gp 50s capsizing, as it would've been a more distinct eg of rig induced roll momentum, but you can see in this one, before the boat heads skyward, it's starting to tip to leeward under the rig load. We don't suffer that dilemma. Bear aways can be quite scary/sketchy on skiffs. if you don't get the timing right, or you get an unlucky gust, you're at the mercy of the sail.
They ventilated the rudder and lost both yaw and pitch control. Not really applicable to a windfoil application
You're right.
During this period of things going wrong for them, they also experienced rolling motion, which is the pressure and subsequent leverage on the boat from the rig, causing the whole boat to heel. Not applicable to windfoils, which is why i posted it.
Love that footage........somebody forgot to let the runner (running backstay) off when they bear away. The leech gets caught on it and they cant dump power, heel over then the rudder foil breaches and ventilates.... all downhill after that. AC boats not terribly relevant to what we do. Yes they are on foils but the whole setup is miles different to wind / wingfoiling.
^^^ oh can you please go post that in the wing forum where they all want nose keel looking crap and u v shaped foils now....
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
^^^ oh can you please go post that in the wing forum where they all want nose keel looking crap and u v shaped foils now....
Yeah, reading the wing forums, it strikes me there's a percentage of them (a small one) that seem to think they're re inventing the wheel.
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..Mark _australia said..
^^^ oh can you please go post that in the wing forum where they all want nose keel looking crap and u v shaped foils now....
Yeah, reading the wing forums, it strikes me there's a percentage of them (a small one) that seem to think they're re inventing the wheel.
The wheel hasn't been perfected yet, check out the interesting shape bike wheels some try.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
^^^ oh can you please go post that in the wing forum where they all want nose keel looking crap and u v shaped foils now....
You mean something like that?
And if yes, what's wrong with that?
www.instagram.com/reel/C5EUN42oizU/
No i am talking about the thread where they talk about hull shapes on AC boats being a bit like some new DW boards but then wondering if the v shaped yacht foils could work
(No, not referring to the plan shape of foils)
But its a tongue in cheek post man
And those strange looking belt harnesses (that look like they'll do a great job of cutting circulation off) when there are windsurf harnesses, and kite harnesses available.
and diy harness lines when there are already windsurf harness lines available that literally do exactly what is required.
And what? moths were one of the earliest adopters to embrace foil technology. Without the early adopters, foiling sailcraft of any sort might never have become a thing.
enough said. Strayed way too far from what the OP was about.
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..dimacced said..Subsonic said..dimacced said..azymuth said..boardsurfr said..
Another thing that's absent in winging is the roll momentum from the rig and mast foot, which requires wider tails to counter-act it for stable rides.
That's interesting - I feel it with smaller extreme HA wings.
Can you explain the roll forces that are unique to windfoiling please 
I personally think momentum is there in both winging and windfoil, and is given by the rider body connecting sail to board transferring with his own body the force from the wing/sail to the board, and the hole si getting a wind force on the center of effort which is at a certain eight respect to the board, so the rider needs to counterbalance by leaning out and getting COG aside from vertical to get an opposite and equal in size momentum in search for equilibrium.
the only difference is that in winging the sail is not connected to the center of the board and you can move it out on the opposite rail, this you can't do in windfoiling since UJ is in the middle and fix, so the stance may be dirrent, in any case sail upright for maximum trust and body leaned outward farest away possible from the sail to counteract momentum...that is why so long lines on windfoil race.
We don't really experience rig induced roll moments in wind foiling, nor would a wing. The Americas cup boats and GP 50s do, as their rig is stayed to the boat. That's why they have their foils set much further forward, and outboard on the leeward side, to counteract the roll moment.
I believe what he's getting at is that wind foilers have to "share" the board platform with their rig, which means we generally need to be outboard when we're up at speed. Moving your feet away from the centreline means you lose some leverage over a foil that exceeds the board width. Hence the wider boards, so we can maintain leverage over the foil when we're outboard. Wing foilers don't really have their feet too far away from the centreline of the board, so roll moment is easier to manipulate.
I am not sure wether I got your point correctly. On foiling we are subject to torque generated by the sail, it is our body that connects the force source (sail) to the board, if you let the sail go it will fall downwind. We do not perceive that much force due to the poor power our sails/wing generates and the very low drag the foil has. Should you take off the foil and do windsurfing instead, immediately consequences are, more drag, so more sail needed, and more torque generated and you need to lean much more outboard to compensate and you perceive more clearly that your body is the connector and force, torque transfer to the board.
As a matter of fact the sail surface and efficiency of an america's cup boat is enormously different, so that they are much more efficient and get 4 times faster than wind speed, while on foiling we get almost as fast as the wind or slightly above 1,4-1,6 times the wind in the best conditions (racers with big sails and very small foil).
So less power generated =less torque, but still torque is there both in winging and windfoiling.
Should leverage being needed to compensate for torque generated by the foil underneath we have this both in winging and windfoiling alike, though wing foilers stay quite centered on the board while windfoilers need some width to counteract that.
While this is generally true, some windfoilers these days claim they feel better with straps located more towards the center of the board, I think the difference is the kind of riding you want to do: should you go faster with more power you may need leverage, and the balance you get is totally different (lean out much, longer fuselage for more power and upwind ability, more sail cloth, more board width), should you go for a more manoeuver oriented ride, you get a totaly different set up, that very much resemble the wing one (Balz muller riding the Pegasus 108 that is 60 cm wide with very mych centered straps).
I start believing that wingers need less forces to get moving, so that even poor source of pure as the wings are are able to let them go; and less forces means difenet stance on the board.
I am afraid many of the difference in stance are coming from our eritage, we have been windsurfers before getting into windfoiling so we have that kind of stance engrained, wingfoilers come from many different sports, some from kiting and they have wider stances, some from windsurfing and they tend to use the wing as a sail...there is a component of physical motor patterns we are somehow linked to and have diffciculties in abandoning. Experimenting is the only thing we can do to explore and understand.
Think of it this way.
If you could blink and instantly turn yourself into a statue whilst out windfoiling, then you would begin to get rig induced roll going on. That's because in turning into stone you are suddenly providing a solid linkage between the rig and the board (and foil). Any gust that hits the sail, and the leverage gets transferred to the board and sail through your solid body. The board and foil will then roll to leeward. Any lull in the wind and the sudden loss of power in the sail gets transferred to the board , and the board rolls to windward. That's what rig induced roll is.
but we, and wingers are not made of stone. Nor are our mast bases a solid connection. They're a universal joint that allows the board to roll and be put on a set angle, regardless of whether the sail is bolt upright, leant over to windward, or about to fall in the water to leeward. We get to manipulate the amount of angle that our boards sit on, regardless of gusts and lulls, and our boards don't capsize (without a concerted effort)
I am with you, I got your point know, but form this perpective I don't see any difference between wing foilers and wind foilers, we both negotiate the elements as you say to keep the trim we would like on the equipment while sailing. The difference I see is with windsurfing were the board is gliding on the water and somehow locked on the water surface, or at least we keep it so by pushing on our feet strengtening ankles, the more rigid you are the more power you get the more speed you achieve, on foiling being in the air the are several grade of freedom to consider, it gets much more complicated to understand what would be the optimal set of parameters, yaw, pich, roll angles, and the sail or wing as a propeller it becomes more a flight mechanics + speed sailing (so close or faster than the wind) kind of physical problem.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
Moths are super cool. I just know at my weight and clumsiness I'd break them.
My brother races them. He's 155lbs and breaks stuff a lot.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
Moths are super cool. I just know at my weight and clumsiness I'd break them.
Such cool boats.
At any weight or dexterity level you will break them.
Select to expand quotejdfoils said..Grantmac said..
Moths are super cool. I just know at my weight and clumsiness I'd break them.
Such cool boats.
At any weight or dexterity level you will break them.
The Wasp is the user friendlier one design version of the Moth. The Wasp Fleet is growing here in the states. I was glad when windfoiling started to come around so I could go foiling cause I knew the Moth would be too much for me in so many ways.
Someone locally has a Waszp and admittedly it's more tempting that IQFoil, but still a lot more work and money than winging.
