Windfoiling or wingfoiling

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PatK said..
Winging can look very amazing. If you have the right playground. And skills.

Yes it does

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thedoor said..

PatK said..
Winging can look very amazing. If you have the right playground. And skills.

Yes it does

Could not agree more. What the Pro wingers do in Maui everyday is pretty much what you see on the video, and more. However, I have to say there are also Pro windsurfers that pull off even more amazing tricks and wave rides. What I can't get my head around is why there are only a few windfoilers there and most of them stay out of the waves.

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Hess said..
I would like to explore your comment on how you are more comfortable winging in higher winds than windfoiling. Just curious if you ride both with the same foils and both with straps?

The reason I ask is that when the wind starts gusting over 40+mph off shore and the water turns into more of a mogul run most wingers, even on foils less than 1000cm2 and wings less than 3m, pack it in. There are those with crazy skills and custom 1.4m wings that still rip it up. While my buddy and I (intermediate windfoilers) will still have fun on our 1300cm2 foils and 3.4m sails on windfoils. Sure a 2.8m sail would be plenty but I don't have one. We ride strapless, so I just move around until I find a comfortable spot and sheet out if I need to.

I usually use front straps for windfoiling, although sometimes I go without. No straps for winging. Same board (Stingray 140).

My home spot (Kalmus) gets quite choppy in stronger winds in most common wind directions. The only time I windfoil in 25+ mph (iWindsurf meter readings) is when the wind picks up after I started rigging. I have had a couple of sessions recently with 28-30 averages that were fun, but the memory of other "fighting" sessions in high chop sticks to my mind. For the last year, I've been on 800-1300 cm front wings, with the SB FR1100 being my current favorite.

For winging, I'm on a 2000 front wing (which I now find boringly slow with a sail). The first wing session that I ever had fun was my 8th, in 25 mph gusting to 43, with a 4.2 wing on my Stringray 140. I was quite amazed how easy it was to handle the wing, even when way overpowered in the gusts. This session was at a less choppy spot. But a few sessions later, I was out at Kalmus in 24 g 32 and had a great wing session, despite the chop and weed. Compared to similar sessions early in my windfoiling, it was surprising how easy it was to keep the foil in the water. With a sail and chop, I still need to concentrate near 100% of the time to keep the foil in the water. With a wing, that seems at least 10x easier. Perhaps the biggest thing is that sheeting in or out has close to zero effect on flight height with a wing. Crashes are another big difference. Overfoiling with a sail sometimes leads to nasty catapults. In contrast, I find the wing crashes rather harmless. Holding on to the boom (sometimes involuntary due to the harness) accelerates the fall; holding on to the wing softens it. The one important thing with the wing is to not fight the fall, but to just go with it. If you try to fight the fall, you might end up with a "taco" and land on the foil. Fortunately, I had my wife to find out these things. I may be biased, because she had multi-hour sessions in 35 averages within her first 10 wing sessions.

As for the wingers packing it when the wind picks up at your place, that may be a mix of skills, conditions, and motivation. If your "off shore" refers to an offshore wind direction, that would be a reason to quit when things get crazy when winging, whereas a sail and higher volume wind foil board makes getting back to shore easier if the wind drops, or goes nuclear. If the "moguls" happen only when the wind is crazy, then that creates additional challenges. In Kalmus, we often get rideable swell in relatively light wind, so the better wingers get addicted to riding the swell, and are happy when it gets higher due to more wind. Some of the wingers who have not yet learned to "flag and ride" may get off the water when wind and chop pick up, but here, motivation comes into place. One local winger lady who is the most motivated winger I know often goes out in strong winds, even though she knows she'll crash a lot. But foiling (first with a sail, then the wing) has been difficult to learn for her. So she knows the value of perseverance, and rarely switches to windsurfing when the wind picks. Her persistence is quite inspiring.

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Mucel said..
I would like to see a light wind performance benchmark between wingfoiling and windfoiling using the same foil size, sail/wing size, similar board, and similar guy weight

To me this comparison doesn't make much sense..would be like comparing a kiter with a windsurfer with same sail size..they are simply different. I never winged but I recon they need more foil surface given similar rider's experience and wind, so why forcing to have same foil size? would mean comparing apples with apricots.
What i see in real world situation is that is much more critical for wingers if wind drops expecially with smaller boards...they are in the dust..a windfoiler somehow always gets back to shore and generally they are slower I think expecially vs windfoilers that use mast track forward a tiny bit more sail size, for a winger to get to windsurf speed range they need to be proficient to say the least, myself almost jibing on the windfoil I am already faster than many windsurfers with 2 m less sails. the two get much closer when we think about frestyle windfoiling, it seems to be a huge cross pollination between the two sports, also because some top riders do both at high level (Balz Muller being one of them).

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dimacced said..
I never winged but I recon they need more foil surface given similar rider's experience and wind

That is not the case. Wingers often start out on a bigger wing, but that's also true for windfoilers (I started with a 2066 front wing with the sail, and with 1700 and 2000 winging). Foil sizes tend to go down as skills improve. The better local wingers are on 725 and 925 high aspect foils now. After 300+ windfoil sessions, I prefer an 1100 over my smaller 800, and the few other regular windfoilers here are on larger foils.

If you see a bunch of windfoilers and wingers on the beach, and notice that the wingers have larger foils, chances are that that's because the windfoilers have more experience - or that the windfoilers are more into tricks (like many foiling jibe and tack variations), which are easier to learn on larger foils. Another reason to use a larger foil that local wingers have reported is low swell speed: if the swell or wind chop is too slow, then a small high aspect foil will outrun it, and a slower foil will be more fun for playing with the waves.

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boardsurfr said..

Hess said..
Thanks what you say still makes sense to me. For reference the spots where I foil are on Maui. The wingers are incredable at everything from riding huge waves with the wing flagged to racing to massive jumping trick. Mind you so are the windsurfers. However there are few windfoilers in the waves/swells.

IMHO when I windfoil with a big "slower" foil even in high winds, things also slow down and falls do become less drastic. However I prefer a MA wave foil in the 1100 to 1300 range, just liking the way they feel on a swell or in a jibe. On these foils I have taken some good falls but find myself in the harness less than 50% of the time because the higher aspect foils are so effect. I think my winger friends on similar foils go slightly slower but have also had some good wrecks. I have to agree the boom and mast are harder than the wing. Mind you going through the rinse cycle on a breaking wave with the wing and board attached looks less fun than getting clear of my windfoil board.

Also riding strapless I never end up concentrating on ride height and am thinking more about what swell I what to jibe on or dodging the next turtle. Just having fun. Although I know some windfoilers who ride with straps and have described a white knuckle feeling for years before they could relax and enjoy windfoiling.

Thanks for the info. From my experience I still believe Windfoiling and Wingfoiling are more the same than different and folks have fun doing both.

You've got quite different conditions on Maui. With respect to flight height control, the biggest difference may be that your waves are spaced out nicely. From what I remember from summer sessions in Kanaha and Sprecks, that's also true in areas where the waves (and wind chop) don't break. In contrast, our chop and swell tends to be tightly spaced, and often jacks ups suddenly. On the rare days where swell and wind chop come from the same direction, there is more order and distance between waves, and flight height control gets a lot easier.

What you say about going through the rinse cycle makes sense - I certainly would not want to be tethered to a sharp foil when getting washed by breaking waves. Which raises the question why winging has taken over in Maui. I've read some reports that say wingers now outnumber windsurfers by a large margin - is that true? Based on what I've seen in Cabarete, the reason may be that it is so easy to have tons of fun playing with non-breaking swell. Wingers there got rides through half of the bay, and pretty much stayed out of the break. They outnumbered windfoilers about 5- to 10-fold (but were still outnumbered by kiters by a similar margin).

The mogels at Kanaha are worst when the North swell is big and the East wind is strong. The North swell is non-existent in the summer so I think you missed the fun. It can jack up quickly just inside the reef. Other locations don't suffer the same conditions. And when the reef waves are 3m plus they wipe out the wind swell over the reef to give you those famous glassy smooth faces 10+ seconds apart. I don't find flying through the moguls to much of an issue on may 101 mast but at times jibing in them can push you around a lot, so I find speed is your friend when trying to jibe in those conditions.

On Maui one of the favourite wave/swell spots is Ka a just down from Kanaha. No one really went there before foiling because the reef has a channel and the waves don't really break but you can pick up a swell on the out side and ride it for 3 or 4 minutes on a big day. So I would have to agree most foilers stay out of the break. However over the last couple of years the experienced wingers have been getting into bigger and bigger breaking waves.

Overall on Maui I would say there are more wingers and definitely more new wingers than windsurfers or kiters. There are still lots of kiters but they mostly go to a couple favourite spots. And on the few perfect days there are more windsurfers than wingers or kiters. However most days around Kanaha/Ka there are just 3 or 4 windfoilers, say 20 to 30 windsurfers, 20 to 30 Kiters and 30 to 40 Wingers.

Regarding restarting after falling in a wave/swell there are times when the mogules just inside the reef make it tricky for the wingers to restart especially on 15L to 40L boards. While I have no problem water starting.

Hope this answers your questions Boardsurf, I always enjoy learning about the different conditions and experiences of folks.

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Sandman1221 said..
I have never winged, but I have watched them, it takes a lot of work to pump up onto the wing board foil AND then they have to hang onto to the wing (no down winding at my spot), now these are young athletic wingers and they get tired after an hour or so and then are done for the day and leave "with hours of good wind still blowing!"

If they are pumping a lot then either wing or foil is too small. With right sized wing it isn't tiring. I'm rubbish at winging and last hours, climbing back onto board hundreds of times, and I'm old too. The good wingers hardly ever fall in unless learning tricks etc.

posted as someone who owns wingfoil kit

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Paducah said..
posted as someone who owns wingfoil kit

??

In my spot with many wingfoilers and kitefoilers my windfoiling takeoff in light winds (10-11 knots) is well earlier than wingers and a bit later than kitefoilers, with 5,3 wavesail and 1600 old surffoil and little board and sail pumping. Wingers in light wind pump like beasts.

I think the cool thing of winging needs some knots more than windfoiling and waves

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XavierFerrer said..
But the wing is slower than freefoil with the same wind. I thing the speed of freefoil is always better than wingfoil because the sail have better profile.

I think both statements are incorrect, if you take differences in experience and foils used into account. I have used the same foil (2000 front wing) for 5 wind and 9 wing sessions. My "top speed" is on the wing, but that is misleading since top speeds are often before loosing control. Better to look at 5x10 averages, where my most recent session on the wing was the 2nd-fastest of the 14 sessions, and faster than 4 of 5 windfoil sessions on the same foil. My wing experience is quite limited, with less than 20 sessions compared to > 200 windfoil sessions. That probably explains why my speeds with the wing are still increasing almost every session.

The argument that a sail should be faster than a wing sounds reasonable, but it's entirely theoretical. There are several theoretical arguments that can be made why a wing should be faster than a sail. Perhaps the biggest one is that the wing effectively reduces the weight the foil has to lift, while a rig increases the weight. Less weight would allow for a smaller foil, which has less drag. But such theoretical arguments completely ignore the actual reasons why wingers that we see on the water are often slower than windfoilers: larger foils, less experience (a main reason to use larger foils), and a strong preference for minimal power in the wing (reflected by wingers rarely using a harness, and even if they do, usually with a much lower load). That said, there are plenty of places that don't have fun swell or chop to play with, and there, wingers naturally drift towards racing and going faster. It's just a question of time until gear development follows by offering faster gear. Some of that we are seeing already, with small high aspect foils and stiffer wing masts. Let's see where that takes us in the next few years. Windfoiling racing has needed a few years to catch up with slalom racing in medium conditions, too.

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boardsurfr said..

XavierFerrer said..
But the wing is slower than freefoil with the same wind. I thing the speed of freefoil is always better than wingfoil because the sail have better profile.

I think both statements are incorrect, if you take differences in experience and foils used into account. I have used the same foil (2000 front wing) for 5 wind and 9 wing sessions. My "top speed" is on the wing, but that is misleading since top speeds are often before loosing control. Better to look at 5x10 averages, where my most recent session on the wing was the 2nd-fastest of the 14 sessions, and faster than 4 of 5 windfoil sessions on the same foil. My wing experience is quite limited, with less than 20 sessions compared to > 200 windfoil sessions. That probably explains why my speeds with the wing are still increasing almost every session.

The argument that a sail should be faster than a wing sounds reasonable, but it's entirely theoretical. There are several theoretical arguments that can be made why a wing should be faster than a sail. Perhaps the biggest one is that the wing effectively reduces the weight the foil has to lift, while a rig increases the weight. Less weight would allow for a smaller foil, which has less drag. But such theoretical arguments completely ignore the actual reasons why wingers that we see on the water are often slower than windfoilers: larger foils, less experience (a main reason to use larger foils), and a strong preference for minimal power in the wing (reflected by wingers rarely using a harness, and even if they do, usually with a much lower load). That said, there are plenty of places that don't have fun swell or chop to play with, and there, wingers naturally drift towards racing and going faster. It's just a question of time until gear development follows by offering faster gear. Some of that we are seeing already, with small high aspect foils and stiffer wing masts. Let's see where that takes us in the next few years. Windfoiling racing has needed a few years to catch up with slalom racing in medium conditions, too.

It's what I see in my spots. People with a last generation wings(more than 2000 euros), same front wing(sab 799), but me with 5 metres Goya Banzai 5.0, and I'm all the time faster. There's people with wing on 40 liters boards, the level is growing very fast.
Usually I see I'm faster in light wind(9-12 knots), even with smaller sails than wings (6-6.5 m2). And another fact I see is with the wing, people needs more front wings to go in all conditions. In my case I use the same foil from 10 knots to more than 25 knots. But the wing have the advantatge to have a better high wind range, and with freefoil we need to change earlier the sail to feel confortable.
The fastests sailboats with foils in the world have a similar profiles like an airplane wing like formula kite, Windfoil, Americas Cup class boats, Moth..., . In my opinion the wingfoil, is a very good option to play in the waves and make tricks of freestyle, but not the faster way to go on foil. The sails needs a much better profile. And the kitesurf have the same tecnology, but the formula kite is faster than the common kites.
Now I'm using a 460 m2 front wing in slalom foil from 11-12 knots with 8.0 sail. I thing with a wingfoil in this moment is very difficult to sail with this wind and this front wing.

At the end, I thing the wing is a good option, but not the best, one and only option.

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WillyWind said..
You know which discipline takes off earlier? E foiling because it needs no wind :)

I windfoil because I like it. I am pretty sure wingfoil slalom racers do it because they like it. I would not be surprised many boaters cannot understand why we all spend so much money and time trying to go at a blistering 30 knots when a pull of a lever takes them at 50 knots for many minutes and without any effort.

I don't need to convince anyone why windfoil is better (or not). Each discipline has pros and cons depending on budget, time, wind/water conditions, etc,

as long as people are enjoying wind powered water sports, I am happy.

Well put.
I've been taking some flack (all in good fun), from friends who wingfoil since I went back to wind foiling. I don't regret it. I tried wing foiling from April to September. I only got about 12 sessions in and only got close to a foiling jibe one time. I got my Levitator 150 out and hit
at least six foiling jibes in my first session and also put on about 20 miles where if I was winging, I'd have maybe got 4-5 miles in the same time frame. I was always spending so much time and energy recovering from another blown jibe.
I love the mix of Kiters, wingers, windfoilers and windsurfers.

I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

Thanks Thedoor for your kind feedback.
Yes, well ....the foil front wing is much more efficient than a windsurf fin, even a formula one, since a fin is simmetrical and need some drift to work, this alone is giving you an angle to the wind you do not have with a wing properly angled since it has an asymmetrical section far more lifty and efficient. Moreover when you incline, the wing is providing lift towards the wind origin leading you upwind, that is why foiling in general hallows closer angles to the wind vs windsurfing. Though this is common to all foiling water sports. The angle you can keep I think depends on many factors, but I suspect an element that wing foiling and kite foiling have in common is that the wing or kite provide upwards lift much more than a windsurf sail does, therefore the foil do not need to provide that much vertical lift compared to windfoil, so that you can bank over more without lowering eight from the water surface. Then the mast foot pressure need to have a role on this, the connection with the board with the UJ makes a lot of difference vs these two other sports. It brings advantages and disadvantages, and I am not sure we are getting yet the most out of it, fo sure getting airborn changes much vs windsurfing technique, I see your video going upwind very much out with long lines, very much inclined to windward that is not how we learned to do it on a windsurf...windsurf sails are far more efficient than wings so far why we do not get better performances out of the kit vs wingers?