Wind foiling VS Wing foiling

Saw a guy yesterday try wing foiling for the first time, was 9-12 knots, he had windsurfed for 20 years and kiteboarded since 1998, but only once kitefoiled for one run. He never got up, and was only trying by kneeling. And was exhausted to boot! Unless you have a harness line on the wing and hook in, it has to take a lot more energy than windfoiling hooked in in the same conditions.

I have 37 years shortboard experience, can loop both directions on kite, have windfoiledfor 2 seasons, now with 9 days on wing.......and still never foiled on wing.
6 of those days were 2-10, one 20+ bit no foil.
Gotta have the right conditions.
Like learning to windsurf in 2-25, very hard.

Yes, 2-22 is hard learning conditions.
My 1st day windfoiling started 10-16, gradually deteriorating to 1-23.
Could fly until lulls of 10 at first. Impossible for my low level in gusts over 21.
Need decent steady breeze to start any wind powered sport.
Now, 150 days later, cannot fly in 8 and struggle in 23+, same foil and same 5.2 sail. Struggle means hard upwind in gusts and racing downwind angles to get back to launch.

Majority of people learning to wing use too small of a board because its cool and trendy, so the learning curve is an absolute ass ache

If we thought windsurfing marketing made small is cool thing difficult over 2 decades, the wing kit has already managed it in less than a year.

The funniest is listening to kiters as they think a big board is 4' 8" and wonder why they are swimming around the whole time.

90 kg/200 lbs with a 6.4 wing, board over 6' 2" around 120-130 liters, low aspect foil will easily wing in 10-15 mph

Winging for me (10 sessions, foiled at least briefly in all but one) is harder physically than wavesailing. Windfoiling isn't physically hard at all, if it was any easier it would be kiting.

I'm just barely scratching the maneuver potential on the wing. Specifically the ability to ride toe side and even tack on the foil seems to open up the ability to ride swell and even breaking waves almost entirely like a foil SUP but without the paddling.

AC75's have two things that windfoils don't though; adjustable rudder pitch (we can adjust stab angle on most brands but not during flight) and flaps on the main foil. In racing terms this gives them a range of adjustability that is not available to us. This leads windfoils (race kit) to basically make a compromise and that compromise is usually for best VMG upwind, which is why most race foils have a super high lift high aspect 900 or 1000 front wing. This is actually way to much for downwind as anyone who races foils can testify that off the breeze they can be a handful. I have actually experimented with smaller main wings. I heavily modified a wing to about 730cm^2 but it's still super high aspect and wide. It's as you would expect very fast off the breeze but it just loses too much VMG upwind compared to the bigger wing setup to be faster around a race course. Of course if it had flaps and in flight adjustable stab pitch this would be a very very different story...so basically a moth then

So basically yes that size is probably optimal....but it's complicated. In my opinion Leed would be far better off with a bigger wing as it's far easier to use in almost all situations and the number of days he mentions vs progression indicates that. I can foil in very similar conditions with the 730 vs the 900 race foil wing (even a 550) but in almost all wind strengths bar super windy it's far far easier on the bigger wing, it flies with far less effort and is way more stable both in pitch and laterally.

RE winging I found it relatively easy to learn, IE I was foiling along in a straight line no problems after a few minutes in flat water and 15kts or so. But I reckon if you don't have a windfoil background it's going to be a lot harder to learn. I'd also say kiters will find it harder to learn than windsurfers and someone who has never done either sport, or even sailing is going to have a very hard time.

Like learning anything you have to make it as easy as possible, as the others have mentioned above. Nice constant 15kts or so, bigish board and flat water. Complicate any element and it's going to be that much harder.

For winging the most common sizes I see here are around 1800cm2 for low aspects and 1500cm2 for higher aspect wings. Bigger and they are too slow to pump properly (without wingpower), smaller and they lack power to get going with the wing. The overall tendency is towards higher aspect wings at the moment, but nowhere near as high aspect as found in windfoiling. I believe around 6-6.5 aspect ratio!

My brand (F-One) has HA (Phantom line) wings in 980,1080,1280,1480 and 1780, and i think 1080 and 1480 would be the best combo for most, maybe 1280 and 1780 if you're 100+kg (220+lbs). This goes for both lake freeriding / freestyle and downwinders at sea. Low aspect is not my cup of tea, but honestly I know no wingfoilers who prefer the low-aspect (4.6AR for 1800) Gravity line of foilwings for winging after having tried the Phantom, except maybe for the initial learning phase to get acquainted to the speed.

My first sessions 2 years ago were on a foilsup (no wing specific boards available back then and the wing was a prototype), 124L and 7'11". My favorite board now is 5'10" and 105L, but I'm not that good yet. Only did it a handful of times although flying jibes are no issue. Might go down in size to 5'4"/75L or maybe even the 4'8"/48L if I do it more often, but would have to learn to waterstart first ;)! (I'm 92kg btw)

A few variables, but I thought it worth noting that windfoilers and AC75s, at the opposite end of the foiling spectrum, are still on the same page when it comes to foil sizing.

Moths use front wings of about 1000sq cm for the same weight and speeds. Flaps and a fully adjustable 8 sq metre sail, although they can't pump as effectively.

Freeriders tend to avoid adjustable outhauls though. Would your 92 kg freerider be better off with 1080 and an adjustable outhaul rather than a 1480 foil?

I was using adjustable outhauls quite a bit at one point (6.4 to 7.8) you could really bag the sail to get pumping and trim the sail nicely when powered through a gust, so they work very well!

Its a good job there are many choices for foils and wings, the higher aspect are good for top end speed, race course and mowing the lawn etc.

For our local patch the low aspects wings win, the holes are bigger than the coast, and turn better in the swells and so the i76 and i84 keeps you motoring for both winging and wind foiling.