I"m pretty sure a foil windsurfer planes up about 3-6 mph less winds, for the same size sail, as a windsurfer.
But there needs to be some qualifications. The foil windsurfer is a pro level sailor, and in winds of "10-12" knots, might be using anywhere from 5-7 meter sails. The windsurfer, also a pro level sailor of the same weight, would need something close to or a SLW board with a 8-9 meter sail. And you KNOW a 8-9 meter sail can be tuned for low winds, or winds of 24 mph. So which tuning is chosen for "10-12" knot winds?
Now, the question becomes, can the foil windsurfer just use an 8-10 meter sail for the lightest of steady breezes? I don't have an answer to that question, but it appear's the foil windsurfer's are using sails in the 6-7 meter range for winds of 18-26 mph, for course slalom racing. Plenty of those days, I'm using a 5 meter sail and a 78 liter bump n jump board.
Select to expand quotepetermac33 said..
I'm still not completely convinced about these claims of planing in the 8-12 knot range.
I watched one sail a few days ago. He seemed to get going with what appeared to be a sail around 6.5m in around 12-13 knots at best.
A hydro-foil kite with a 15 to 20m sail,yes I've seem them planing and powered up in winds a formula board with a 10 metre would have no absolutely chance of planing.
Those things are insane when the winds are around 8-12 knots.
A hydrofoil windsurfer will probably need another couple of knots to get going. At least.
You will find it depends on the type of foil. I have kited on race foils that take some speed to get going but have ridden a North foil that flys at walking speed. It seems that most of the windsurf foils are being developed by race and slalom guys. They still get going in slightly lighter winds but the big advantage is once you are up. I have orded the Naish foil. It has a larger front wing than most and is not going to be as fast but will definately get going earlier with a smaller size sail (I only have wave sails). You need to choose the type of foil to suit you riding. Not much range at the moment but it will get there.
I had a good session yesterday out in the ocean. It is a whole different ball game in the swell, compensating for the rise and drop in the swells if difficult. I did get some footage which I'll put up soon, but for now, here's the first minute of my first run (i know a few people like see the process of getting up onto the foil especially in the lighter stuff).
I measured the wind on the beach with my wind meter and had a max gust of 11kt (most were about 9ish), lulls around 6-7kt. BOM measured the wind 6-9kts at the time this was filmed, but increased to 9-15kts towards the end of my session.
I'm sure Windfoiling is the wave of the future, especially in light wind areas.
However, what I find disturbing is the low speeds associated with windfoiling so far.
I know, you will now say Antoine Albeau won this race or that using a windfoil.
For sure, windfoil can plane at lower winds than windsurfing, given the same sized sail, board, and equal skilled rider.
I"m sure more development will up the speed of Windfoils, but right now, they get awfully unstable and fast freeride speeds, it appears.
Maybe it's just difficult to make a windfoil work at the low end, winds of "7-12", and still have it quick and rideable at the upper ends, around 15-20. Using different sails, of course.
That's sorta what killed kitesurfing for me. Just slow.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
I'm sure Windfoiling is the wave of the future, especially in light wind areas.
However, what I find disturbing is the low speeds associated with windfoiling so far.
I know, you will now say Antoine Albeau won this race or that using a windfoil.
For sure, windfoil can plane at lower winds than windsurfing, given the same sized sail, board, and equal skilled rider.
I"m sure more development will up the speed of Windfoils, but right now, they get awfully unstable and fast freeride speeds, it appears.
Maybe it's just difficult to make a windfoil work at the low end, winds of "7-12", and still have it quick and rideable at the upper ends, around 15-20. Using different sails, of course.
That's sorta what killed kitesurfing for me. Just slow.
I am sure as R&D continues, we will see new designs and evolution continue to help deal with building loads. Maybe twist/flex in wings is something that is coming to off load excess lift as speeds increase.
Regards,
JB
Lee D, you seem to have a lot of expertise about foils, what foil/board/sail do you use the most ?
Select to expand quoteseanhogan said..
Lee D, you seem to have a lot of expertise about foils, what foil/board/sail do you use the most ?
I know its early days with the foils. My question is will they develop a foil for the waves. Might sound like a bit silly but can you imagine coming down a face on a foil.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
That's sorta what killed kitesurfing for me. Just slow.
What sort of kitesurfing foil were you using? There is quite a range of kite foils and I thought some went very quick.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Nice and cheap, to buy a foil AND a foil board.
I already have a Formula board, '12 F-167 and a couple of deep tuttle light wind slalom boards. So, no excuses.
Except for the fact the past month, I've been windsurfing on smaller sails (sub 86 liter boards) than anyone on a foil among the 8 foil rider's around here, three my weight, and one female at least 25 lbs lighter than me.
End of season, around Oct., we will get those sub 14 mph winds the foils excel in. By then, I"ll already have my 100+ planing days on sails smaller than 6.5 and mostly boards around 100 liters.
Deleted ....
Robby's saying that the hover 122 with mast foil will work even better with their own sail. I can see his point ! You want the wind draft centred not forward like in slalom sails. Lower clew also. Still cannot believe how the hover gets going in little wind. Roll on september when l get my new light wind setup.
Ok, pre-warning. This video goes for over 13 minutes.
I've had some comments asking for more footage of the actual runs and not the cuts of the good bits, so here it is. I have cut the parts that I'm not foiling, but this shows getting up to getting down and a few wonky bits inbetween. This is my first 5 runs out Long Reef last week. It's pretty long, my editing software crashed and I had to delete all my narration so it's just watching and listening to the amazing sounds of my self stitched loop track 
.
This was really the first proper session I've had in the open ocean as well as my first session on the actual Thrust WS Foil.
The swells and chop angles make it very tricky, and the wild lifts that come from no-where took me a while to get my head around, but think I got it pretty dialled.
Run 1. Beach start and first tack way out past the headland. Wind SSW, 6-11kts.
Run 2. Fist run back in to the beach. Breeching quite a bit as the swell angle was hard to negotiate, and managing my speed was also hard. Wind SSW 6-11kts.
Run 3. Second run out, getting better and the wind kicked in a little. Moving much faster, and went further out resulting in bigger swell and chop. Wind probably got to about 12kts in the gusts.
Run 4. This run I went fast and was a little giggly with the swell directions again, there's a pretty good part where the foil definitely won and I got for a bit of a rodeo ride, but managed to get it all back under control. By now I have gone significantly far up wind. 8-12kts.
Run 5. Bareaway time. The video doesn't do this run justice IMO 
, it felt like I was flying!! I'm running hard off the wind and it felt amazing. Everything was so light. Again balancing lift over the swells was tricky, and when you breech on a bareaway you round up pretty hard. But over all a pretty good run. It's started in nearly no wind (which is why i cut the clip) as I had gone so far up wind into the wind shadow, then gets to a good 12 kts by the end.
The Naish hoover 122 looks awesome. Looks like a flat rocked slalom board. The hull is dead flat & has got hard rails from the mid section back. The weight is around 14 kg with mast fitted. I like the 4 bolt connection to the board. Hes a demo one down at W.S.Snow.
. Nice footage J.B. down at longee.
Select to expand quoteJB said..
Ok, pre-warning. This video goes for over 13 minutes.
I've had some comments asking for more footage of the actual runs and not the cuts of the good bits, so here it is. I have cut the parts that I'm not foiling, but this shows getting up to getting down and a few wonky bits inbetween. This is my first 5 runs out Long Reef last week. It's pretty long, my editing software crashed and I had to delete all my narration so it's just watching and listening to the amazing sounds of my self stitched loop track .
This was really the first proper session I've had in the open ocean as well as my first session on the actual Thrust WS Foil.
The swells and chop angles make it very tricky, and the wild lifts that come from no-where took me a while to get my head around, but think I got it pretty dialled.
Run 1. Beach start and first tack way out past the headland. Wind SSW, 6-11kts.
Run 2. Fist run back in to the beach. Breeching quite a bit as the swell angle was hard to negotiate, and managing my speed was also hard. Wind SSW 6-11kts.
Run 3. Second run out, getting better and the wind kicked in a little. Moving much faster, and went further out resulting in bigger swell and chop. Wind probably got to about 12kts in the gusts.
Run 4. This run I went fast and was a little giggly with the swell directions again, there's a pretty good part where the foil definitely won and I got for a bit of a rodeo ride, but managed to get it all back under control. By now I have gone significantly far up wind. 8-12kts.
Run 5. Bareaway time. The video doesn't do this run justice IMO , it felt like I was flying!! I'm running hard off the wind and it felt amazing. Everything was so light. Again balancing lift over the swells was tricky, and when you breech on a bareaway you round up pretty hard. But over all a pretty good run. It's started in nearly no wind (which is why i cut the clip) as I had gone so far up wind into the wind shadow, then gets to a good 12 kts by the end.
Hope you enjoy,
Ride safe,
JB
Nice going JB
Its going to be a fun summer
Cheers Russ
Select to expand quotegavnwend said..
The Naish hoover 122 looks awesome. Looks like a flat rocked slalom board. The hull is dead flat & has got hard rails from the mid section back. The weight is around 14 kg with mast fitted. I like the 4 bolt connection to the board. Hes a demo one down at W.S.Snow.
. Nice footage J.B. down at longee.
So the deep tuttle was a gappy stop gap measure until a standard foil mount appeared on the scene?
Looks like this would allow you to fit Naish foils plus a lot of others to an old slalom board.
Select to expand quotegavnwend said..
The Naish hoover 122 looks awesome. Looks like a flat rocked slalom board. The hull is dead flat & has got hard rails from the mid section back. The weight is around 14 kg with mast fitted. I like the 4 bolt connection to the board. Hes a demo one down at W.S.Snow.
. Nice footage J.B. down at longee.
Can the Naish 122 be used as a normal board? With fin? If so how good would it go?
Once you've got the hang of foiling is it hard to swap back to normal sailing or swap between the 2 without getting confused..
Thats a good question. I would add the following:
Also how many people buying these Naish boards/ foils have tried using foils on say their older 130 litre Slalom board of around 82 cm wide ?
What width is the Naish 122 Hover board ?
What length of foil mast can you learn with ?
Can you learn on a long foil mast ?
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..
Thats a good question. I would add the following:
Also how many people buying these Naish boards/ foils have tried using foils on say their older 130 litre Slalom board of around 82 cm wide ?
What width is the Naish 122 Hover board ?
What length of foil mast can you learn with ?
Can you learn on a long foil mast ?
229 x 73 cm x122litres
and yes.
Select to expand quoteBSN101 said..gavnwend said..
The Naish hoover 122 looks awesome. Looks like a flat rocked slalom board. The hull is dead flat & has got hard rails from the mid section back. The weight is around 14 kg with mast fitted. I like the 4 bolt connection to the board. Hes a demo one down at W.S.Snow.
. Nice footage J.B. down at longee.
Can the Naish 122 be used as a normal board? With fin? If so how good would it go?
BSN101, technically you could sail it if you really wanted to. But it is not designed to be ridden as a conventional sailboard. There is next t no rock on this bad boy (this helps it gather momentum very early), so it would feel interesting getting onto the plane, as you'd likely have then entire board in the water and be very prone to nose diving. This board is specifically designed to get you onto the foil ASAP and be as aerodynamic as possible to reduce windage from nose rocker or poor foil mount angle (hence the channel that ensures you're flying at the perfect angle).
Ride safe,
JB
Select to expand quotesboardcrazy said..
Once you've got the hang of foiling is it hard to swap back to normal sailing or swap between the 2 without getting confused..
At this point, haven't looked back yet. But I'll let you know. I think it will be just like embedding another sport, if you've done them enough, you should be able to cross back and forth.
JB
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..
Thats a good question. I would add the following:
Also how many people buying these Naish boards/ foils have tried using foils on say their older 130 litre Slalom board of around 82 cm wide ?
What width is the Naish 122 Hover board ?
What length of foil mast can you learn with ?
Can you learn on a long foil mast ?
There is going to be a lot of people go and use their old slalom boards and get out there. A few things you're going to find;
- The tail is not wide enough and you'll have trouble controlling the foil lift.
- The board is not strong enough (if using a DT box) and you'll eventually rip the box out or fold your board at the front of the mast mount.
- The angle of the foil will be out, and you'll be sailing along with your board pointing into space, and all that rocker making it worse. The faster you go the more windage you will encounter, making everything harder.
The loads a foil board goes under are insane, when I I think about the Hover 122 lifting my 95kg ass up whilst I'm pumping on a 5.3m with totally ease (actually lift to spare), there must be an enormous amount of sheer loading at the front of the mast mount. Naish Hover boards all run serious reinforcements way in front of their foil mounts to ensure the load is distributed efficiently without overloading the board. The construction is almost bullet proof. Grabbing your old sailboard which was not designed to take these loads, actually most slalom boards were designed to be somewhat light everywhere on the bottom except the fin box (which was only really reinforced for side to side loads), will eventually give way.
Using a Foil Mount sick on pad is great as it does spread the load quite well, but again, your board was not designed to withstand these loads, and most importantly the bottom laminate which is now taking all the load. It's a great product, and good to get you on the water fast to experience foiling while you are waiting for your Hover to turn up 
. But Please be weary, and please please please tether your foil to your board securely. We've been using the Foil Mount from ZU on our 5'6" Raptor Soft Top (prone surfboard) for about a month or so now, and it's been great. We do still tether the foil every time though.
Width - DJ had this one, 73cm You don't need to go super wide, as the foil is doing all the lifting. Going to wide increases drag and windage. What you're going to find with foiling is once you have enough skill, you want to have the smallest board you can get away with while still being efficient. I used an old Kite Race board, 190 x 69 @ 95ltrs, and attached the Malolo Foil to it and my 4.7m Force, it felt amazing. If I hadn't creased it (as per my comments above), I'd likley still be using it when windy enough (I can't uphaul it, so needs to be water start conditions). The Hover 122 is right on the mark. It's just big enough to uphaul easily, gets going amazingly early, and is super well balanced.
Personally my first session was on a 52cm mast. It worked fine, but didn't give you much play area. If you're on dead flat water, you can go short, but in chop you'll be checking in a lot or breeching. The Thrust WS comes standard with a 70cm mast, and works really well. It's not intimidating and easy to control.
Learning to foil on a long mast is possible, but you have to be ready for some mean stacks. Imagine yourself like a pendulum swinging over your foil, everything on a longer mast is intensified. I do believe the longer mast will be used for racing and working with larger sails at higher speeds, but it's kind of like formula sailing, you've got to know your stuff, where as Naish' set up is actually super easy. I put 3 time Olympic Windsurfer Lars Kleppich on the Hover on this day (Pics coming) and he picked it up immediately, getting decent glides. Lars had 2 goes behind the board 3 days earlier, then straight into it. Now yes he's an experienced sailor, but I believe the gear helped a ton (and my expert tuition ).
This is a massive answer, and I hope it helps a little.
Be safe,
JB
Here is Lars Kleppich on my gear later that day. The wind had increased to about 14 - 15 kts so we were a little over ripped, but flattened the sail out quite a bit and it was manageable. Lars had only done one quick boat session a few days before on a foil and this was his first ever go at wind foiling. A little bit annoying how good he was at it, but great to see how quickly you can get up and going on the Naish Hover and Thrust WS combo. This gear is so easy to use.
Ride safe,
JB
Nice,
Naish really have a great product there.
Never seen so many windsurfers waiting for their new presents!
