Anyone else switch between wind and wing foil in the swells?
I recently took a trip down to this beach in Fort Pierce (Florida) there is some youtube footage of guys riding wings in some seriously good overhead waves but no wind foilers?. I kept hearing that you have a football field length of butter smooth water and when you reach the outside you are greeted with some sizeable swell and they were spot on, this place was incredible.
This day I chose the wind foil kit over winging and here's why, just like wave sailing when you go off the wind and down the line you are obviously losing A LOT of ground and I can pinch upwind faster and better angles with a sail and so you can get back in the pocket much easier and quicker. There were over 18 wingers that day but very few could stay upwind in the critical section, they would lose so much ground down wind. The trick was to stay close to the jetty when powering back out but there were some gusty sections.
The sensation of flying down the line wind foiling is so direct, the increased pressure on the front wing is like nothing else...its adrenaline level 10 
The wing is very fun too but its a completely different sensation.
I would say winging you feel freer/less restrictive as you hold the wing behind you just gliding on the foil, bottom turns are not as quick and many more foil outs. Judging by the sheer number though winging has exploded its incredible!
Next time I go hopefully I can capture video of both wind and wing and on a nice sunny day, it was difficult to capture the swells when it was raining, the camera lens fogged up and I lost over an hour of the best footage 
BTW - A friend of mine caught a 14ft hammerhead not far from this beach the same weekend and so that's also another motivating factor, I fall in much less with a sail, lol.
"The sensation of flying down the line wind foiling is so direct, the increased pressure on the front wing is like nothing else...its adrenaline level 10 The wing is very fun too but its a completely different sensation.
I would say winging you feel freer/less restrictive as you hold the wing behind you just gliding on the foil, bottom turns are not as quick."
This has been my experience to date with winging too. I find I foil out a lot less on the wing as you don't have to compensate for gusts on the mast foot like on the wind foil.
Wing foiling feels a lot more like powder snowboarding .. a very smooth, free sensation. I like the ability to totally power off the wing and go dead down wind and/or just ride the wave. Wind foiling feels a lot more like wave sailing, lots of drive and the ability to really power carve. A lot more difficult (for me) to totally power off the sail and just 'ride' a wave or go dead down wind, but a more fun ripping waves and then hammering back up wind.
When out in the swell I see most of the wingers cutting the grass on good swell banks or doing downwinders. The wind foilers move around a lot more doing down winders and then the upwinder to get back to or upwind of their start point.
I have a couple of years of wind foiling experience vs 5 months on a wing so still have a long way to go on the wing. Loving both.
Select to expand quoteShorebreak said..
"The sensation of flying down the line wind foiling is so direct, the increased pressure on the front wing is like nothing else...its adrenaline level 10 The wing is very fun too but its a completely different sensation.
I would say winging you feel freer/less restrictive as you hold the wing behind you just gliding on the foil, bottom turns are not as quick."
This has been my experience to date with winging too. I find I foil out a lot less on the wing as you don't have to compensate for gusts on the mast foot like on the wind foil.
Wing foiling feels a lot more like powder snowboarding .. a very smooth, free sensation. I like the ability to totally power off the wing and go dead down wind and/or just ride the wave. Wind foiling feels a lot more like wave sailing, lots of drive and the ability to really power carve. A lot more difficult (for me) to totally power off the sail and just 'ride' a wave or go dead down wind, but a more fun ripping waves and then hammering back up wind.
When out in the swell I see most of the wingers cutting the grass on good swell banks or doing downwinders. The wind foilers move around a lot more doing down winders and then the upwinder to get back to or upwind of their start point.
I have a couple of years of wind foiling experience vs 5 months on a wing so still have a long way to go on the wing. Loving both.
Cheers Shorebreak and yes I agree! Winging is much more about downwinders (which is insane fun), I just don't feel the constant efficiency to power back upwind on the wing run after run so I gauge the days equipment choice by wind strength and direction.
if it's side off (generally gustier wind) I definitely prefer DTL wind foiling, if nicely powered and decent cross-shore the wing gets the nod.
Select to expand quoteCoreAS said..
Anyone else switch between wind and wing foil in the swells?
I recently took a trip down to this beach in Fort Pierce (Florida) there is some youtube footage of guys riding wings in some seriously good overhead waves but no wind foilers?. I kept hearing that you have a football field length of butter smooth water and when you reach the outside you are greeted with some sizeable swell and they were spot on, this place was incredible.
This day I chose the wind foil kit over winging and here's why, just like wave sailing when you go off the wind and down the line you are obviously losing A LOT of ground and I can pinch upwind faster and better angles with a sail and so you can get back in the pocket much easier and quicker. There were over 18 wingers that day but very few could stay upwind in the critical section, they would lose so much ground down wind. The trick was to stay close to the jetty when powering back out but there were some gusty sections.
The sensation of flying down the line wind foiling is so direct, the increased pressure on the front wing is like nothing else...its adrenaline level 10 The wing is very fun too but its a completely different sensation.
I would say winging you feel freer/less restrictive as you hold the wing behind you just gliding on the foil, bottom turns are not as quick and many more foil outs. Judging by the sheer number though winging has exploded its incredible!
Next time I go hopefully I can capture video of both wind and wing and on a nice sunny day, it was difficult to capture the swells when it was raining, the camera lens fogged up and I lost over an hour of the best footage
BTW - A friend of mine caught a 14ft hammerhead not far from this beach the same weekend and so that's also another motivating factor, I fall in much less with a sail, lol.
Nice one Dean, how good is that small swell at 1.27, that place is going to be nuts when it's big 
I downwind a lot with wingers - reckon we're all having the same amount of fun 
They go a bit slower but fly more directly downwind, I like keeping the power and speed up so s-turn more down the swells.
Most wingers go further than me and car-shuttle back. On windfoil it's so easy and enjoyable to hook into the harness and power back upwind at 18-20 knots - rather be foiling than dealing with traffic.
Recent 6km downwinder, SSW 20 knots, 5m Tricera
the other great thing about wind foiling in swell is that you can partially depower the sail so you have enough sail power to continue to ride down the line without lots of foil pumping
Select to expand quoteShorebreak said..
"The sensation of flying down the line wind foiling is so direct, the increased pressure on the front wing is like nothing else...its adrenaline level 10 The wing is very fun too but its a completely different sensation.
I would say winging you feel freer/less restrictive as you hold the wing behind you just gliding on the foil, bottom turns are not as quick."
This has been my experience to date with winging too. I find I foil out a lot less on the wing as you don't have to compensate for gusts on the mast foot like on the wind foil.
Wing foiling feels a lot more like powder snowboarding .. a very smooth, free sensation. I like the ability to totally power off the wing and go dead down wind and/or just ride the wave. Wind foiling feels a lot more like wave sailing, lots of drive and the ability to really power carve. A lot more difficult (for me) to totally power off the sail and just 'ride' a wave or go dead down wind, but a more fun ripping waves and then hammering back up wind.
When out in the swell I see most of the wingers cutting the grass on good swell banks or doing downwinders. The wind foilers move around a lot more doing down winders and then the upwinder to get back to or upwind of their start point.
I have a couple of years of wind foiling experience vs 5 months on a wing so still have a long way to go on the wing. Loving both.
+1
I went 110 mast for windfoiling on open ocean, bigger swells - fantastic, rarely foil out now, and longer reaction time, but looking down into troughs can be good scary!
Wings with booms can do partial power DTL. Likewise wingers can power through a turn but most seem to prefer the glide.
In my locale the decent wingers can tack, I don't think more than a handful of windfoilers in the world can tack on the foil. That move allows wingers to make up a whole lot of upwind in marginal conditions in a small space.
That said getting the mast base as close to my front foot as possible makes dropping down swell a whole lot less sketchy.
Select to expand quoteShorebreak said..
This has been my experience to date with winging too. I find I foil out a lot less on the wing as you don't have to compensate for gusts on the mast foot like on the wind foil.
That's an interesting observation. I have winged only a few times, but I got the same impression. When I watch others, it also seems that windfoilers have a harder time avoiding touchdowns and overfoils than wingers. When winging, sheeting in or out seems to affect the pressure on both feet the same, while with a sail, the weight distribution between both feet and the mast foot changes, which affects the angle of the foil, making it go up and down much more. Many wingers on flat water and smaller chop seem to have no problems with 70 cm masts, while windfoilers often have a preference for 95 cm masts in these conditions. Not sure if that's also true at other spots? In larger waves (like Ft. Pierce), wingers also seemed to prefer longer masts.
Select to expand quoteazymuth said..CoreAS said..
Anyone else switch between wind and wing foil in the swells?
I recently took a trip down to this beach in Fort Pierce (Florida) there is some youtube footage of guys riding wings in some seriously good overhead waves but no wind foilers?. I kept hearing that you have a football field length of butter smooth water and when you reach the outside you are greeted with some sizeable swell and they were spot on, this place was incredible.
This day I chose the wind foil kit over winging and here's why, just like wave sailing when you go off the wind and down the line you are obviously losing A LOT of ground and I can pinch upwind faster and better angles with a sail and so you can get back in the pocket much easier and quicker. There were over 18 wingers that day but very few could stay upwind in the critical section, they would lose so much ground down wind. The trick was to stay close to the jetty when powering back out but there were some gusty sections.
The sensation of flying down the line wind foiling is so direct, the increased pressure on the front wing is like nothing else...its adrenaline level 10 The wing is very fun too but its a completely different sensation.
I would say winging you feel freer/less restrictive as you hold the wing behind you just gliding on the foil, bottom turns are not as quick and many more foil outs. Judging by the sheer number though winging has exploded its incredible!
Next time I go hopefully I can capture video of both wind and wing and on a nice sunny day, it was difficult to capture the swells when it was raining, the camera lens fogged up and I lost over an hour of the best footage
BTW - A friend of mine caught a 14ft hammerhead not far from this beach the same weekend and so that's also another motivating factor, I fall in much less with a sail, lol.
Nice one Dean, how good is that small swell at 1.27, that place is going to be nuts when it's big
I downwind a lot with wingers - reckon we're all having the same amount of fun
They go a bit slower but fly more directly downwind, I like keeping the power and speed up so s-turn more down the swells.
Most wingers go further than me and car-shuttle back. On windfoil it's so easy and enjoyable to hook into the harness and power back upwind at 18-20 knots - rather be foiling than dealing with traffic.
Recent 6km downwinder, SSW 20 knots, 5m Tricera
Thats funny, when I first arrived here every time, the days we foiled oceanside the winging group was all about down winders and then uber back or they leave a car somewhere...I'm like, um with a sail I can just throttle back upwind in no time
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
the other great thing about wind foiling in swell is that you can partially depower the sail so you have enough sail power to continue to ride down the line without lots of foil pumping
winging seems to be more on or off and sometimes when its off you don't have enough power to ride the swell without pumping the foil
Perfect examples Roland, about a minute in on the wind foil video you can ride the foil one handed on the rig and you can ride long distances effortlessly, I also have to pump the wing foil board much more to keep the glide going.
pretty easy to ride partially de powered on a wing, esp if you have a boom or rigid handles. going upwind on a windfoil is like a dream, although i'm pretty sure if I used a harness, doing the same on a wing would yield similar results. where we sail a lot, you can do 3 mile downwinders and sail/wing back no problem.
one big advantage of the wing in swell riding is dealing w/ drastic apparent wind changes like going from flagging to towing the wing.
funny seeing a lot of wingers never switch their stance and try to get back upwind.
speaking of switching stances... my gawd :-o
www.instagram.com/tv/CafPgoDph_Y
rode the slapper the other day and it was so nice to just waterstart, blast, and do some tricks
I was really into wind foiling (including in waves) but I have now moved over as the wing has too many advantages:
- Easier launching and recover in shore break
- The wing is less intrusive when depowered on the wave
- Easier jumping of waves on the way out
Now I'm using a harness I'm finding I can go upwind about the same as wind foiling:
Riding the wing depowered feels great but the guys on Maui are now riding the wings in a powered up windsurf style in the waves too.
Alex Aguera riding back side powered up
Kane vid shows strong toeside, but nothing you can't do on windfoil or surf sailing.
Slashing 2' mushbugers is not all that impressive.
And riding 30' out in the shoulder.......
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Slashing 2' mushbugers is not all that impressive.
Actually, it is. The amount of fun you can have in less-than-perfect waves is exactly what's impressive. That's true to some extend for windfoiling already (compared to windsurfing), but from what I have seen, winging takes it to an entire different level.Select to expand quotesimonp65 said..
I was really into wind foiling (including in waves) but I have now moved over as the wing has too many advantages:
- Easier launching and recover in shore break
- ...
The shore break issue is a big one, I think. I've stood on shore several times now next to my wide watching moderate shore break, thinking "there's no way I'd make it through this with my windfoiling gear", while she wanted to go out. We ended up both not going out because there was nobody else on the water, and it was a new-to-us spot with side-off wind.
The only positive ending I see to this is that I learn to wing. I did not care for it much the first few times I tried, but was fortunately enough to get tips & gear from ABK Boardsport's Andy Brandt during a recent trip to Florida, so that I now at least have an idea what to do, and that this could be fun after a few more sessions.
Well, living where I do, NorCal San Francisco, we just don't have small wave conditions with consistent wind. There is a vid of Jonny Heiniken surf foiling tiny Ocean Beach, but those conditions occur maybe 2 weeks out of a year, and never longer than a couple hours.
As for shorepound....I have surfed beachbreak San Francisco for 30 years. Avoid it. Windsurfing in +20 wind works, as does kitesurfing.
Very few wingers, almost no windfoilers.
Sunset Sailboards, Kevin, is one of the 10 best wingers around, out of maybe 300, lives 2 blocks from OBSF, and stays away.
Look for a channel.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Kane vid shows strong toeside, but nothing you can't do on windfoil or surf sailing.
Slashing 2' mushbugers is not all that impressive.
And riding 30' out in the shoulder.......
Feel free to post your own videos. I'm sure they will be much more epic.
Still not impressed.
If the waves were 6' and somewhat steep...major props!
But banking and carving windswell waves is nothing special.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..Still not impressed. If the waves were 6' and somewhat steep...major props! But banking and carving windswell waves is nothing special.
If carving windswell is "nothing special", let's see how you do it.
Even a phone camera vid will do 
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..I claim I can walk. Do you require video proof of that?
Everyone can walk, only a few can foil carve windswell from what I've seen locally and online and you say it's nothing special.
How do you make that claim?
Carving a windswell on foil is not rocket science.
Unhook, initiate downwind/downswell, counyer carve heelside while keeping some speed, wait until you're heading over the swell and lay sail/toeside turn to repeat.
C'mon, we all do it a higher tides by the 20th day.
Like windsurf, we can spray ourselves off the top on the toeside turn.
Some guys, like Sunset Sailboards, were doing this 3 years ago, laying the sail down well past 45 degrees. He's since switched to winging.
Not saying I can lay the sail down that far, but plenty of times I can feel my spray on my legs from a hard toeside top turn.
Even a local -30 day newbie was one handing his toeside carve off the top, holding his boom near the front harness line connection. And he NEVER surf sailed.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Carving a windswell on foil is not rocket science.
Unhook, initiate downwind/downswell, counyer carve heelside while keeping some speed, wait until you're heading over the swell and lay sail/toeside turn to repeat.
C'mon, we all do it a higher tides by the 20th day.
Like windsurf, we can spray ourselves off the top on the toeside turn.
Some guys, like Sunset Sailboards, were doing this 3 years ago, laying the sail down well past 45 degrees. He's since switched to winging.
Not saying I can lay the sail down that far, but plenty of times I can feel my spray on my legs from a hard toeside top turn.
Even a local -30 day newbie was one handing his toeside carve off the top, holding his boom near the front harness line connection. And he NEVER surf sailed.
Yes yes . all very interesting. I'm sure some people aren't impressed by Kai Lenny surfing barrels at Jaws.
Now can we get back to the original thread of 'wing vs wind in swell' and move the critiquing of style and skills to another thread.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
What's a wave?
This?
I live inland so WTF do I know?
Seriously, though, agree with so many of the comments here on how foils of any persuasion make the tiniest bump fun. That's a big reason for the wing explosion in places like Maui for those who've followed the developments. The locals are giddy about going out and absolutely having a blast on days that, previously, were "sit on the beach and complain" days. Like the windfoil world where we get off the water and look at on absolutely know that five years ago, had we seen the same conditions, we'd have driven through the parking lot without even stopping.
My interest in wings is focused on places where water has more shape. For our inland flat water days, doing the zoomzoom on windfoils is so addictive.
Riding/ripping a wave is not only about how many turns or just how hard...although hard hard IS impressive.
The wave is the reference, the rider uses the wave..as a focal point.
Focus is not on the rider him/her self.
Wiggle butt, Tim tac, shimmy and airplane 20' out on the shoulder in almost flat is not impressive.
Ok, maybe it is to you.
Using the breaking/steepest/biggest part as the reference for strong, clean maneuvers into and over is the criteria.
Just running dtl doesn't score...unless maybe it's 10'+. But here we're talking about PRO RIDER vids, not vids of you and me.
Different criteria.
I'm with those who are impressed with the vid. Azymuth is right. Not everyone can carve like that on a wave. Me - definitely not. But I'm still having a blast doing some much slower and wider carves.
And it is super impressive what foils allow you to do in light winds and small swell. You'd struggle to do anything like that on a windsurfing wave board in those conditions.
Some very interesting comments and I was curious to see who goes back and forth between Wind and Wing or maybe you think winging is not for me?
Regardless of how the pro's shred this forum is about everyday foilers that just like to share their experience! I personally have a tough time winging out in 2-3 shore break, I have done it many times but our local breaks the wind gets super light on the inside, and I find the wind foil kit easier to get going.
and I 1000% agree the foil has opened up the days that was non-rideable on a fin and if you get the chance to go DTL on a wind or wing foil the sensation is another dimension, super addictive
Interesting...
Sailed Ceiba in PuertoR, direct onshore wind direction, mostly 1-2' breaking waves in chest deep waters. Breeze mostly 9-15 knots.
Wingers on their biggest wings, 5.5 average, 90 liter boards, mostly 1500+ size wings, about my 160 lbs.
I was on 102 liter freeride board, 5.5 sail, 8.25 single wave TA Enduro fin.
2 Windfoilers on 6.0, don't know foil because they launched upwind.
Everyone foiling or planing at times, nobody more than 50%.
Wingers walk/pushed past the shorebreak into head deep water, to avoid waves, then knee started.
I was beach starting well inside in thigh deep water, heading down the beach and pinching out between waves.
Coming in, I could get planing off the set waves, ride 300 yards on a wave before pinching hard upwind and tacking or pivot jibing.
Every foiler stayed outside the waves, because their foils would hit bottom.
Some of them were good enough to foil tack.
I considered riding a 118 liter Exocet Warp and 6.5 Noa, but was able to make what I got work.
Hardly ever planed heading out, almost always planed on way back.
