Select to expand quotesegler said..
I admire the people who still do both. Since I started foiling in 2017 I have not slapped once. The formula gear in my garage is crying for attention . I'm retired and old, so I can be a little choosy about wind conditions. If conditions are slapper-only, it's no biggie to wait a day or 5 until conditions get good for foiling.
Even Bruce Peterson says has not slapped since he started foiling in 2017. Some of his team riders still do both.
Hard not to slap on the West side of the San Francisco Bay Area. During the season the wind is 15 to 25 knots and water condition tends to be very choppy with swell. Does not mean much but I know of only two people who have switched completely to Foil, everybody else seems to keep the Foil as a light wind back up. Many rig a 4.4-4.8 and switch to foil if the wind drops. One person is using the same freestyle board for both. He just changes the fin to foil ... one board, a couple of sails sail, two "fins" ... many others however also have a racy set up, 5.5-8.0 with lots of Bay Area based F4 foils.
Select to expand quoteazymuth said..
The foil tends to track the swell height so goes up and down a certain amount seemingly without rider input - so you only occasionally slap the bigger wave tops. I've never had any of the 3 wings breach while upwinding.
I think most mental effort is spent on identifying a path down or over the swells and dealing with acceleration - very little on controlling ride height.
There's a huge difference between ocean swell and wind chop. The swell where you sail is lovely and spaced well apart, so the foil can actually track it well. Where I foil most of the time, it's mostly wind chop that ramps up as it gets shallower. The chop waves may be 2-3 ft high, but they are not much further apart, and they are often quite steep. Without actively managing height, when going out against a wave the wave will push you up, and the foil will be in the air after the wave passes. Going in with the waves coming from the back is harder, since you don't see the waves. It does not help that the wind chop is usually at a 45-60 degree angle to the swell coming in.
We had a rare day where things were different yesterday. The wind was straight onshore and light, so it was mostly swell coming in straight onshore. It was as high as on usual (~ 2 ft), less steep, spaced further apart, and less chaotic. All that made for things a lot easier.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..azymuth said..
The foil tends to track the swell height so goes up and down a certain amount seemingly without rider input - so you only occasionally slap the bigger wave tops. I've never had any of the 3 wings breach while upwinding.
I think most mental effort is spent on identifying a path down or over the swells and dealing with acceleration - very little on controlling ride height.
There's a huge difference between ocean swell and wind chop. The swell where you sail is lovely and spaced well apart, so the foil can actually track it well. Where I foil most of the time, it's mostly wind chop that ramps up as it gets shallower. The chop waves may be 2-3 ft high, but they are not much further apart, and they are often quite steep. Without actively managing height, when going out against a wave the wave will push you up, and the foil will be in the air after the wave passes. Going in with the waves coming from the back is harder, since you don't see the waves. It does not help that the wind chop is usually at a 45-60 degree angle to the swell coming in.
We had a rare day where things were different yesterday. The wind was straight onshore and light, so it was mostly swell coming in straight onshore. It was as high as on usual (~ 2 ft), less steep, spaced further apart, and less chaotic. All that made for things a lot easier.
When I am beating into heavy chop I often aim to tap the windward rail of my board on the crest of the chop, mostly to make sure my foil will not breach in the trough. If I am reaching I will bear off and ride the swell instead.
The last time I went slapping was spring last year. It was 15-30 rigged a 5.0 and FWS, launched from the beach straight into a wind hole (thought my arms would blow out) finally got going in a gust and had a tomahawk wipeout dented the nose on the board...made one gybe and went straight back to the beach!!
spent the next 2 hours on a 4.1 and time code 68 absolute frothing! Unless it's down the line wave sailing my slapping days maybe over.
I sold the last of slapper gear this weekend at the local lake and all spare parts on eBay. Now, 100% foil (loyal to the foil) for 2+ seasons. Smaller gear (and less gear), easier on my 60 yr. old body and wider range when sailing with my slapper buddies. Granted they are faster on a reach than me on my freeride foil rig (W-105, Moses 1100/683 wings, Ezzy Hydra 55./7.0) but the foil allows me to do more (tricks, steeper angles, chop riding, and pumping lulls). 35 years of windsurfing, it was time for a change.
Subsonic and I went for a slapper sesh this weekend in conditions we would normally foil in, but we were on the coast and worried about the weed, so we dragged our big slalom race boards out and went for a blast. it was fun, but we very rarely use that big gear now because we are always on foils. Once it gets over 18 knots we tend to go back to the slapper gear and don't find the transition too difficult, but that's coz we swap regularly. The first time I did slapper gear after foiling for months it was a strange sensation and took a bit to get settled, so I think the key is to swap regularly if you don't want to lose it. :)
Select to expand quoteazymuth said..boardsurfr said..15 knots still seems darn fast to me on a foil, even after 84 foil sessions. Part of it is that my setup often feels a bit unstable/uncontrollable when trying to go fast on the i84 or i76. The TC68 is better behaved. I have the suspicion that my narrower old slalom board (71 cm but with a thinner tail) and 71 cm mast may be contributing to that, especially in chop. But a test in the German SURF magazine also said even with the Wizard 125 and a 90 cm mast, the i76 reaches its limits early when fully powered, and can be tamed only by opening the sail ("Voll angepowert kommt der Fl?gel dann etwas fr?her ans Limit und l?sst sich dann nur noch mit ge?ffnetem Segel b?ndigen"; SURF 6/2020).
How does the i65 compare in that respect to the TC68 and the i76?
Not sure about the "opening the sail" advice. I think weight over your front foot is key - and keep the power on.
Turning downwind also helps retain control when fully lit.
Fully powered - the TC68 and I65 are both equally controllable (with practice) but you'll be accelerating faster on the I65.
The I76 requires more input (weight forward) to control at speed - but it's still awesome fun in bigger winds and swells.
90cm mast height is plenty in big swells.
The foil tends to track the swell height so goes up and down a certain amount seemingly without rider input - so you only occasionally slap the bigger wave tops. I've never had any of the 3 wings breach while upwinding.
I think most mental effort is spent on identifying a path down or over the swells and dealing with acceleration - very little on controlling ride height.
Approx max ocean speeds with wave sails -
I65 - 23 knots
I76 - 21.5 knots
TC68 - 20 knots
All 3 carve better than any other similar size foil I've seen 
Hmm, I've still got a lot to learn. I'm finding when the gusts hit I open up the sail and try to weight the front foot. Staying sheeted in is Russian roulette, if the gust doesn't get too strong I might be able to muscle it out, but if it builds too much, eventually there is a skywards explosion! I should probably get my back foot out of the strap earlier I guess, but when the wrestle is on my focus is elsewhere. Beginner issues
Select to expand quoteStretchy said..
Hmm, I've still got a lot to learn. I'm finding when the gusts hit I open up the sail and try to weight the front foot. Staying sheeted in is Russian roulette, if the gust doesn't get too strong I might be able to muscle it out, but if it builds too much, eventually there is a skywards explosion! I should probably get my back foot out of the strap earlier I guess, but when the wrestle is on my focus is elsewhere. Beginner issues
I agree with you, even though I don't use straps, so I can move my feet. It is quite possible to open up the sail a bit in gusts. The key is to not open it all the way, and to compensate for reduced mast foot pressure if necessary. I do what you describe (put weight on the front foot) only in the strongest gusts, when I get close to the "skyward explosion". In smaller gusts, moving the rig a bit forward is often enough. This can be a bit tough when starting to foil, but after > 80 sessions now, it happens automatically. But I am using freestyle or wave sails that handle anything between 10% and 100% power quite well; I'm not sure that would work with cambered sails.
I still have to work on going upwind in strong gusts to gain control. That's easy to do if you see a gust coming and control is not an issue, but not something I think of often when I am fighting a sudden strong gust. Not sure how well it works then, either, since the first thing you notice is an increase in apparent wind, while board speed remains pretty much the same.
Select to expand quoteStretchy said..
Hmm, I've still got a lot to learn. I'm finding when the gusts hit I open up the sail and try to weight the front foot. Staying sheeted in is Russian roulette, if the gust doesn't get too strong I might be able to muscle it out, but if it builds too much, eventually there is a skywards explosion! I should probably get my back foot out of the strap earlier I guess, but when the wrestle is on my focus is elsewhere. Beginner issues
For a lot of people (not necessarily you), they move their harness lines up when they start and then never really move them back as they begin to foil with more power in the sail. So, when they get hit by a gust, they have more back hand pressure than normal. Back hand pressure -> pressure on the back foot -> board rises when you don't want it to. For me it was an adjustment to even sheet out in a gust since the flapper response is stay sheeted in and just go faster.
I sheet out just a little then head upwind and slowly add the sheeting pressure back in. Heading upwind is easy to maintain/add front foot pressure.
Select to expand quoteStretchy said..azymuth said..boardsurfr said..15 knots still seems darn fast to me on a foil, even after 84 foil sessions. Part of it is that my setup often feels a bit unstable/uncontrollable when trying to go fast on the i84 or i76. The TC68 is better behaved. I have the suspicion that my narrower old slalom board (71 cm but with a thinner tail) and 71 cm mast may be contributing to that, especially in chop. But a test in the German SURF magazine also said even with the Wizard 125 and a 90 cm mast, the i76 reaches its limits early when fully powered, and can be tamed only by opening the sail ("Voll angepowert kommt der Fl?gel dann etwas fr?her ans Limit und l?sst sich dann nur noch mit ge?ffnetem Segel b?ndigen"; SURF 6/2020).
How does the i65 compare in that respect to the TC68 and the i76?
Not sure about the "opening the sail" advice. I think weight over your front foot is key - and keep the power on.
Turning downwind also helps retain control when fully lit.
Fully powered - the TC68 and I65 are both equally controllable (with practice) but you'll be accelerating faster on the I65.
The I76 requires more input (weight forward) to control at speed - but it's still awesome fun in bigger winds and swells.
90cm mast height is plenty in big swells.
The foil tends to track the swell height so goes up and down a certain amount seemingly without rider input - so you only occasionally slap the bigger wave tops. I've never had any of the 3 wings breach while upwinding.
I think most mental effort is spent on identifying a path down or over the swells and dealing with acceleration - very little on controlling ride height.
Approx max ocean speeds with wave sails -
I65 - 23 knots
I76 - 21.5 knots
TC68 - 20 knots
All 3 carve better than any other similar size foil I've seen
Hmm, I've still got a lot to learn. I'm finding when the gusts hit I open up the sail and try to weight the front foot. Staying sheeted in is Russian roulette, if the gust doesn't get too strong I might be able to muscle it out, but if it builds too much, eventually there is a skywards explosion! I should probably get my back foot out of the strap earlier I guess, but when the wrestle is on my focus is elsewhere. Beginner issues
I know I do a fair bit of my foiling sheeted out, but I rarely do a sudden sheeting out to handle a gust. Typically, if I hit a big gust, then I just weight the front foot and if that isn't enough I round up wind.
Also, I have long lines and generally stay hooked in when sheeted out so maybe that maintains some of the mastfoot pressure.
All great points, still a lot too learn
very true Paducah, what you say about slapper instincts.
sorry for the hijack. Re getting out of touch with slapper? No problem whatsoever for me, I guess if it gets to that point, I'll know I've become proficient at foiling
I've given up slapping as I was only doing it in about one session in twenty and it just got too hard to switch back. It wasn't a tough decision. For where I live foiling suits 80% of the time. The other 20% I just suck it up!
Regarding getting lifted, I found once I ditched my slalom race sails for foiling specific sails life got a lot easier. My Skyscapes put the nose down when I sheet in due to the more forward draft. Slalom sails just create too much lift.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..Stretchy said..
Hmm, I've still got a lot to learn. I'm finding when the gusts hit I open up the sail and try to weight the front foot. Staying sheeted in is Russian roulette, if the gust doesn't get too strong I might be able to muscle it out, but if it builds too much, eventually there is a skywards explosion! I should probably get my back foot out of the strap earlier I guess, but when the wrestle is on my focus is elsewhere. Beginner issues
For a lot of people (not necessarily you), they move their harness lines up when they start and then never really move them back as they begin to foil with more power in the sail. So, when they get hit by a gust, they have more back hand pressure than normal. Back hand pressure -> pressure on the back foot -> board rises when you don't want it to. For me it was an adjustment to even sheet out in a gust since the flapper response is stay sheeted in and just go faster.
Yes, exactly. Moving the harness line forward was probably the worst advise I had in my still pretty much failing adventure with foiling. It made for a completely unbalanced ride in which on top of having to balance the foil I had to balance the sail with my arms. Nowadays I leave the harness lines where they should be to have a neutral asset with no pressure from front or back.
Opening up I think depends on the sail? My Severne 4.8 Free is very neutral, no real need or tendency of opening up the boom. The Point-7 ACX opens up naturally when it starts to get powered but retains a constant forward pull and just accelerates. But the main difference from the slapper is the regimen I use the sails in. I am 72 Kg, and where I used to be on my switchblade 7.3 when few where around, and the ACX 6.5 when B&J sailors are on a 4.7, 15-22 knots or so I now never use the 7.3 (never put it on the foil), and the 6.5 is for 10 knots ... it feels like a completely different sail.
Anybody else like a flatter sail for foiling (more outhaul) than they need for the fin?
Seems the key....much more outhaul so
the sail only rotates around 9" total with a light hand push.
Just depowers controllably when I oversheet to keep the board down. Actually was able to foil with a 5.0 in gusts well into the mid 20's, about 4-6 mph more than before.
Naturally, gusts came up to 29 yesterday, so switched to 92 liter Firewave and same setting sail.
Still a bit too much, but it started to back off a lot going back to foil weather in 45 minutes.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Anybody else like a flatter sail for foiling (more outhaul) than they need for the fin?
It depends on the sail, and conditions, you cannot generalize. And often you cannot really compare the sail adjustment of fin vs foil: there IS a 1 to 2 square meter difference in what you need between the two means of navigation.
When I use my 5.4/6.5 ACX with the fin I am powered to overpowered and often at max down/out haul, the reverse with the foil. The difference however is small, 1-2 cm down or out.
Just had 4 days in a row of epic sailing. Every other day was on foil and the other 2 days were on the slapper. This time it only took about 10 minutes to get dialed back into the slapper from off foil the previous day. Things are better. I gps myself on the i84 foil and my max speed that day was 18.2 mph. Wind was 10-15 mph and I was on a 6.0 sail. Felt nicely powered. On the gusts I just unhooked, sheeted out the sail and just cruised. I have noticed when I unhook, I need to shift my weight forward, sometimes even slide my feet forward some so I don't over foil. Good times
Guess it depends on whether you choose small sails or bigger....the wind has an equal say.
I always get overpowered, easily foil up, so LOT'S of downhaul and flat profile with lots of outhaul seems to work for me.
Now, that's not for everyone. In true 10-13 breezes, 5.2 sail, a deep profile with more leech tension provides more power.
Also, smaller foils need more constant power.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
I dislike the name slapper it feels like a put down.
It certainly is. Human nature, people always want to imply what they do and what they have, is superior to others.
i don't care, slapping rocks and is still a major adrenaline rush that I don't think I'll ever get bored with windfoiling rocks too so does wingfoiling so does kiting ...
Slapper, clapper, tapper, traditional windsurfing board, whatever you want to to call it, it's loads of fun just like foiling. I think the name, "foiling " sounds goofy! I personally like the name, "hydro windsurfing" better, but who really cares. At the end of the day, we're all having fun on our boards away!
