Select to expand quoteutcminusfour said..
I wanted to give an update on this.
When I drilled out my fuse and wings over to M8 I could not find the long middle bolt in A4 ss. I figured because the diameter was bigger I could get away with A2 bolts from McMaster. I promptly bent them!
Bruce and the folks at Sailworks have been very patient and supportive through all this. I really appreciate their dedication to customer service! He sent me link to purchase Titanium fasteners.
www.probolt-usa.com/
The new bolts have been flawless! They were not all that expensive at around $10 a piece. Let's just say that I have tested them under full load repeatedly now and they are solid! They also come with a colored coating so I choose the long bolt in a different color to help pick it out.
Long story short, I now charge with confidence on the amazing Moses 1100!
I mountain bike and this long thread reminds me of some silly forum threads where people ask about using aluminum bolts to secure disc rotors (mamma!), or titanium bolts bought from e-bay on high stress areas such as a seat collar or bar stems 
. You can do that, but don't complain if they fail ... and don't be so surprised when bolts up to manufacturer specs don't 
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..utcminusfour said..
I wanted to give an update on this.
When I drilled out my fuse and wings over to M8 I could not find the long middle bolt in A4 ss. I figured because the diameter was bigger I could get away with A2 bolts from McMaster. I promptly bent them!
Bruce and the folks at Sailworks have been very patient and supportive through all this. I really appreciate their dedication to customer service! He sent me link to purchase Titanium fasteners.
www.probolt-usa.com/
The new bolts have been flawless! They were not all that expensive at around $10 a piece. Let's just say that I have tested them under full load repeatedly now and they are solid! They also come with a colored coating so I choose the long bolt in a different color to help pick it out.
Long story short, I now charge with confidence on the amazing Moses 1100!
I mountain bike and this long thread reminds me of some silly forum threads where people ask about using aluminum bolts to secure disc rotors (mamma!), or titanium bolts bought from e-bay on high stress areas such as a seat collar or bar stems . You can do that, but don't complain if they fail ... and don't be so surprised when bolts up to manufacturer specs don't
I've snapped a few bolts mountain biking over the last 30 years. Anything but Case hardened steel will void some warranties for suspension bolts. If only they were easy to get with a PTFE coating for corrosion prevention..
Select to expand quotesunsetsailboards said..
did you drill and tap or also install helicoils? Seems like helicoil installation isn't much harder and would ultimately have longevity benefits, or is there a downside to helicoils?
Just drilled and tapped. Time will tell. I got a year and a half out of my first fuse in spite of my abuse and lack of rinsing. If I get a year and a half out of this fuse I will be happy and hopefully getting a upgraded foil after 3 years.
Helicoils could be a good thing but I am not so sure. They would be tougher threads for sure. The female threads have not been my issue though. Also bolts can come out and the cavity can get rinsed and lubed. Helicoils don't come out and are going to create corrosion.
SAB foil did not mention helicoils when they said it's okay to retrofit the bolts m8.
Thanks for this post guys. My w1100 gaving same issue with m6 bolts, busted one bolt and wing has worked loose on several occasions with bolts bent slightly. I 80kg and have been winging and sup foiling on wing, it does perform well unfortunate this issue! Just pur hased some titanium m6 bolts before reading this, will try taping out to m8 if they still problematic, helicoils crappy idea i think as corrosion will be issue. Cheers again for info from moses, foiling is such a new sport we can only expect these issues from all manufacturers, i have kited with full carbon one piece quality set ups and they break too!
Select to expand quoterappL said..
Thanks for this post guys. My w1100 gaving same issue with m6 bolts, busted one bolt and wing has worked loose on several occasions with bolts bent slightly. I 80kg and have been winging and sup foiling on wing, it does perform well unfortunate this issue! Just pur hased some titanium m6 bolts before reading this, will try taping out to m8 if they still problematic, helicoils crappy idea i think as corrosion will be issue. Cheers again for info from moses, foiling is such a new sport we can only expect these issues from all manufacturers, i have kited with full carbon one piece quality set ups and they break too!
Get the 900 HS fuse. Now comes with M8.
I using 710 standard fuse with m6 threads, anyone know the difference with the 710hs fuse apart from m8 threads?
Select to expand quoterappL said..
I using 710 standard fuse with m6 threads, anyone know the difference with the 710hs fuse apart from m8 threads?
This is what SAB told me regarding the 900 HS. You can figure out what they mean.
the differences are:- 8 hole - it is more strength- the degree of incidence of the stabilizer is - 1.5 degrees, while on the old FW900 it was -2.3 degrees
8 hole is M8
it is more strength - I assume is made of stronger material (might be a tad heavier)
Don't know if the rear part is any different for the 710
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..rappL said..
I using 710 standard fuse with m6 threads, anyone know the difference with the 710hs fuse apart from m8 threads?
the differences are:- 8 hole - it is more strength- the degree of incidence of the stabilizer is - 1.5 degrees, while on the old FW900 it was -2.3 degrees
So will the HS have more or less lift than the old FW900 based on the different stabilizer angle? I am yet to wrap my head around these numbers.
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said
the differences are:- 8 hole - it is more strength- the degree of incidence of the stabilizer is - 1.5 degrees, while on the old FW900 it was -2.3 degrees
Thanks for this information, very interesting.
I always shim my old 900 fuse with +1?, so this would not be necessary anymore with the new fuse.
"The degree of incidence of the stabilizer is - 1.5 degrees, while on the old FW900 it was -2.3 degrees"
^^^is there anyone who knows how to measure this to make sure they mean negative (-)1.5 deg not positive?
So on the old 900 fuse you would need a +2.5 deg shim to get the stab neutral? That doesn't really make sence to me especially since there shims only go up to 3 deg, I'm using 2.5 deg right now on a rdb(moses clone 450) stab, I always thought brands put a positive angle on there stabs without adding shims this is what slingshot does I believe.
What is positive and what negative stab angle?
I would say a down angle is a negative angle. Then the values of ZeroFix make sense to me.
It took some time to figure this out, but the convention for naming stab shims refers to the effect on lift of the front wing. A shim labeled +1 actually increases the stab down angle by 1 degree. This has the effect of increasing the angle of attack of the front wing increasing the lift.
I typically decrease the stab down angle because I want to control the lift with my back foot, rather than it controlling me. For example, with the Moses 950 wing on the newer 900 fuselage (M6 holes), I shim with -0.5 deg. This makes it really easy to control and ride. (Many riders shim this with +1.0 deg, but this makes it too front foot heavy for my liking.)
Select to expand quotesegler said..
It took some time to figure this out, but the convention for naming stab shims refers to the effect on lift of the front wing. A shim labeled +1 actually increases the stab down angle by 1 degree. This has the effect of increasing the angle of attack of the front wing increasing the lift.
Ok, that makes sense. So the old moses 900 fuse gives the stab positive 2.3 deg by angling it down(without shims). I would say I run my stab similar to my old hoverglide 42cm which puts the wing at plus 3.7 deg. I wonder if the new phantasm fuse does the same angle, as I really liked the way the hoverglide balanced on the i76 and i65 without shims.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
It took some time to figure this out, but the convention for naming stab shims refers to the effect on lift of the front wing. A shim labeled +1 actually increases the stab down angle by 1 degree. This has the effect of increasing the angle of attack of the front wing increasing the lift.
I typically decrease the stab down angle because I want to control the lift with my back foot, rather than it controlling me. For example, with the Moses 950 wing on the newer 900 fuselage (M6 holes), I shim with -0.5 deg. This makes it really easy to control and ride. (Many riders shim this with +1.0 deg, but this makes it too front foot heavy for my liking.)
so the new HS899 needs less shims than the old 900 to provide the same lift?
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
so the new HS899 needs less shims than the old 900 to provide the same lift?
I think it's the other way around. The HS899(-1.5) is angled down 1 deg less then the old 900 at -2.3. So you need a +1 shim to make it like the old 900 with no shim. I think you had both fuses so wounder if the difference is very noticeable?
The newer new fuse, the 899, has M8 holes. The sorta new fuse, the 900, has M6 holes. Mine is the 900, which I got in August. The 950 wing has M8 holes, but includes stainless cones to mount M6 screws through.
Also, rather than try to figure out the shimming in advance, just do it experimentally. Mount various shims until it feels right. That's how I settled on the -0.5 shim.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
The newer new fuse, the 899, has M8 holes. The sorta new fuse, the 900, has M6 holes. Mine is the 900, which I got in August. The 950 wing has M8 holes, but includes stainless cones to mount M6 screws through.
SAB homepage says M8 for the new 900 HS fuse.
sabfoil.com/en/products/Fuselage-900-High-Strength#overview
My 950 wing with Moses print has M6 holes, my 940 wing with SAB pr has M8 holes. 
The 899 HS and 900 HS have M8 holes. The 900 has M6. 900 HS with M8 is for tuttle mast and 899 HS is pedestal mast. New wings have M8 opening with cones for M6. Wings are supplied with M6 & M8 now. Both HS fuse have -1.5.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
The newer new fuse, the 899, has M8 holes. The sorta new fuse, the 900, has M6 holes. Mine is the 900, which I got in August. The 950 wing has M8 holes, but includes stainless cones to mount M6 screws through.
That is not a new fuse. The new 900 HS fuse was released in October 2021.
Select to expand quoteCAN17 said..thedoor said..
so the new HS899 needs less shims than the old 900 to provide the same lift?
I think it's the other way around. The HS899(-1.5) is angled down 1 deg less then the old 900 at -2.3. So you need a +1 shim to make it like the old 900 with no shim. I think you had both fuses so wounder if the difference is very noticeable?
Hopefully we get some wind this weekend and I will experiment.
Moses couldn't make it any simpler - three 900mm fuses. They also had to change the company name.
Select to expand quoteFaff said..
Moses couldn't make it any simpler - three 900mm fuses. They also had to change the company name.
yeah and two different mast to fuselage connections kite/surf and wind
They do have the "wide range of wings" pre-requisite well covered though
Select to expand quotethedoor said..Faff said..
Moses couldn't make it any simpler - three 900mm fuses. They also had to change the company name.
yeah and two different mast to fuselage connections kite/surf and wind
They do have the "wide range of wings" pre-requisite well covered though
There are 3 mast to fuse on the wind foil range alone. The 899 is for pedestal mast (will not work with tuttle mast), the normal 900 or 900 HS for the 85/95/old 105 that has 2 connection point and the 107 (now called 105) that has 4 connection points on the fuse and works only with the 1150 fuse. We haven't even touched the other disciplines.
I think that SAB is getting rid of the normal (old) 900 fuse and moving to the new 900 HS with M8. That they couldn't figure out how to use the same fuse for their mast with pedestal is beyond understanding.
The evolution phase of foiling hast just started. Even Starboard do change their stuff from year to year. Compatibility kills innovation.
But yes, SAB's portfolio is quite confusing
I like everything about my Moses/SAB stuff except the mast to fuse connection. Two bolts. The front bolt loosens from front wing lift, and you have to keep tightening it. A friend of mine even lost his front bolt completely until we told him about keeping it re-tightened.
Assemble, foil 20 minutes, re-tighten, foil 20 minutes, re-tighten. It will stay tight from now on. Since I foil in fresh water, I just tighten it this way and never disassemble.
With my AFS foil I never have to worry about the mast to fuse. connection, because they are one piece! They definitely figured that out.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
I like everything about my Moses/SAB stuff except the mast to fuse connection. Two bolts. The front bolt loosens from front wing lift, and you have to keep tightening it. A friend of mine even lost his front bolt completely until we told him about keeping it re-tightened.
Assemble, foil 20 minutes, re-tighten, foil 20 minutes, re-tighten. It will stay tight from now on. Since I foil in fresh water, I just tighten it this way and never disassemble.
do you use a rubber mallet to hammer the fuse on before tightening the screws fully? My mate told me to do this and it seems to work pretty good. I haven't been coming back in to retighten. Prior to using the mallet I did run into the loosening issue
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
This is what SAB told me regarding the 900 HS. You can figure out what they mean.
the differences are:- 8 hole - it is more strength- the degree of incidence of the stabilizer is - 1.5 degrees, while on the old FW900 it was -2.3 degrees
I apologize for still annoying with the stabilizer incidence theme.
The old 900 fuse (FW900) is gone from the SAB hp. So i searched the internet and found at sailworks this information. They say it is 1.5 degree, not 2.3:
www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/masts-fuselages/moses-sabfoil-fuselage-fw900.html
Only the slalom fuse FW1010 looks to have 2.3 degree.
I find it important to know what incidence my fuse has when I want to shim.
