So, in watching various videos of foil pumping technique (and who knows, maybe I've been pumping incorrectly for fin windsurfing all these years, too??), it appears I pump backward. By this I mean, I 'circle' my mast around in the opposite direction than seems to be the generally-recommended foil pumping technique. I start by moving the rig forward and outward, then I start pulling it back (toward the tail) and toward me, sheeting in on the way back, then start moving it forward and away from me again to start the next cycle. (so, viewed from above, with my right arm/leg forward, the mast tip would be moving in a clockwise circular-ish path.) As I move it forward (toward the nose and away from me), I sheet out a bit, so that I can sheet in again on the way back. This sort of produces a big 'scooping' motion when I'm pulling in/back and sheeting in.
Conversely, in every video I've seen of someone pumping on a foil board, they are circling the mast in the other direction. They pull the toward the back of the board and toward themselves, while sheeting in, then push the sail forward, in pretty much the same lateral (to the board) plane that they were in at the end of the pump, then circle the mast outward a little once the sail is forward, sheeting out right before they start pulling back again. (So, the mast tip is following a circle'ish path in the opposite direction to what I typically do.) When I try this approach, I sort of mini-backwind myself near the end of the forward stroke and/or near the peak of the forward motion (as I try to sheet out a bit), and kill any momentum I gained from the pump. I will say that while appearing a bit more frantic in tempo, the 'foil' method of pumping I've seen in videos is definitely a smaller and more subtle range of motion than what I do in my 'scooping' technique. In the stance described above (right side forward), this would result in the mast tip moving in more of a counter-clockwise circular-ish path.)
I'm sure this is just a matter of practice - I've got years of built-in habit of doing it the opposite way - but I assume that the way I'm seeing in foiling videos is more effective? Have I been pumping wrong on a fin board all my life, or is there a difference in pumping technique between foils and fins?
I rarely pump the sail on a board with a foil, instead I pump the foil, much more efficient and balanced especially as the board leaves the water and loses the associated stability.
Never thought about it. I guess I pump the "regular" way. The only think I can think of is that the "regular" way might put more pressure on the back hand-leg, which directs the force towards the foil and your way pushes the nose down?
Select to expand quoteJohn340 said..
Yeah, those are 2 of the several I've been watching over and over, LoL, trying to get a feel for what seems to be the more foiling-oriented pumping technique. In both of those cases, they were doing the counter-clockwise circular motion when they were right-side forward - my current technique circles in the other direction. It almost appears that they're doing their sheeting-out on the rearward part of the path, then sheeting in at the end of the very end of the rearward arc, and the start of the forward motion.
I definitely need more practice, if I'm going to adopt this technique for foiling - my current technique is the complete opposite, and it's thus far feeling like trying to learn to write or throw with my non-dominant hand! :-)
The above ones are really good. Here, Britt, concentrates just on the pumping motion and it's very helpful
Select to expand quote2keen said..
out Balz at 17.00 great skills. The perfect combination of sail and board pump
Balz always gets a green thumb from me. 
Select to expand quoteJohn340 said..
A good instruction video on pumping onto foil
Interesting - Simon and Ben both pump up quicker and more efficiently than me (at 1.40).
They both start pumping with their foot in the strap - my foot is in front of the strap (otherwise I seem to sink the tail).
Going to have to try harder to keep pressure on the mast foot and my foot in the strap because it definitely looks like better technique.
LoL, you guys seem to have found my private stash of foil pumping videos!! :-)
I've watched them all again this evening, in the context of this conversation, and think I see a particular part that I have been doing wrong in trying this method that is opposite to mine. (ie, when trying the 'counterclockwise' foiling-oriented approach) I'm anxious to hopefully get out on the water this weekend and work on the technique further! I think my 'scooping' technique is more effective for very low wind - like trying to get back to shore when the wind flat out shuts down on me, but I'm pretty convinced that the foiling-oriented method is better for getting going at higher speeds, and also reduces a fair bit of excess motion that would upset the balance on the foil, or when close to getting onto the foil. (Add to that the fact that a bunch of people who are really good at foiling are doing the method in the opposite direction of mine, and I'm not dumb enough to think that I'm smarter than these highly-skilled folks!! <:-)
I really need to work on my pumping too. This is how I tend to do. I guess 10-15 of my chin up pumps = 3-4 of Britt's or Balz' subtle circular pumps
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
I really need to work on my pumping too. This is how I tend to do. I guess 10-15 of my chin up pumps = 3-4 of Britt's or Balz' subtle circular pumps
Nice going on the sinky board, I'm out of breath watching
Select to expand quoteazymuth said..thedoor said..
I really need to work on my pumping too. This is how I tend to do. I guess 10-15 of my chin up pumps = 3-4 of Britt's or Balz' subtle circular pumps
Nice going on the sinky board, I'm out of breath watching
Lol, it is very tiring
There is a board pumping component to getting up on foil, but I get up much earlier if I pump the sail. If it gets light while on foil I either pump the sail or the board. Pumping the board is kinda cool, but pumping the sail will increase speed much more significantly. Knowing how to pump the board is good if you sail into a hole though. After the gybe in the video below, I am trying to just pump the board
There seems to be two different phases to pumping.
The slower, initial phase seems to benefit most from sail pumping, throwing the sail forward, and staying pointed downwind. Can start without the front in the footstrap just to get basic board speed.
The second, faster phase seems to benefit most from more lateral sail pumping or even close to a static sail (if it's a large sail), with lots of hip movement to foil pump. Front foot in strap and pushing forward during certain parts of the pump.
I'm not the best pumper but I'm getting better and can get up in 8 knots on race gear, probably a little later on my slingshot setup and a smaller sail. It feels different in many ways. On the smaller sails I can't put a lot of hips into the foil pumping like I can with a big 9.0, at least without taking a bath in light winds.
Like most things, I'm better off learning by feel, wheather its jibing or pumping. I've watched a 1000 videos, but I just gotta get out and do it. Took a lot if practice , but I've got both board and sail pumping sorted out now. The smaller the sail, the more rapid the pump. I just worked out what method would generate board speed by trail and error. I think of it as "scooping air" as much as pumping. I only pump the board after the board speed is at~ 80%. A couple board pumps at the end to break loose of the water. It is exhausting though. The next critical thing for me is knowing when to start pumping. I've learned to wait 5-8 seconds after the puff hits to start pumping. Otherwise I will out run the leading edge of the puff and stall after I've been flying 30 feet. I also head up wind as soon as I take off to keep the sail loaded up and stay in the wind line. Once I'm up, I'll pump the board and sail if needed to get to the next wind line. Pumping the sail and board once flying is a lot easier than trying to get off the water, but I only have enough juice to do that 20 seconds or so. Guaging the wind in puff sailing can save a lot of energy. By that I mean.. I've gotten to where I can pump up on to the foil (I76), when there is not enough wind to sustain flight. All that energy wasted.
Rytis' approach works best for me so far, especially the idea of unloading the foil with an almost-jump.
Britt's video is persuasive, but it wasn't really working for me, so I asked him about it - he owns the shop nearest my most usual launch and is very generous with impromptu coaching. What he pointed out is that if the return stroke feels like you're trying to bear off - with the sail sheeted in, in other words - you're creating flow over the leeward side of the sail and actually getting lift as you throw the sail forward. Cool idea and I've been working on it. So far I haven't got it timed right and I do actually bear off. However, the bigger forward toss does mean that I've got more length in the rowing motion as I pull the sail back again.
Select to expand quoteWsurfAustin said..
Like most things, I'm better off learning by feel, wheather its jibing or pumping. I've watched a 1000 videos, but I just gotta get out and do it. Took a lot if practice , but I've got both board and sail pumping sorted out now. The smaller the sail, the more rapid the pump. I just worked out what method would generate board speed by trail and error. I think of it as "scooping air" as much as pumping. I only pump the board after the board speed is at~ 80%. A couple board pumps at the end to break loose of the water. It is exhausting though. The next critical thing for me is knowing when to start pumping. I've learned to wait 5-8 seconds after the puff hits to start pumping. Otherwise I will out run the leading edge of the puff and stall after I've been flying 30 feet. I also head up wind as soon as I take off to keep the sail loaded up and stay in the wind line. Once I'm up, I'll pump the board and sail if needed to get to the next wind line. Pumping the sail and board once flying is a lot easier than trying to get off the water, but I only have enough juice to do that 20 seconds or so. Guaging the wind in puff sailing can save a lot of energy. By that I mean.. I've gotten to where I can pump up on to the foil (I76), when there is not enough wind to sustain flight. All that energy wasted.
This is a great summary and very consistent with my experience. Not sure if I subconsciously head up wind. I definitely don't wait for 5 sec after the gust, that is something I will try
Funny, I posted this vid a year ago almost to the day, the second video has a lot of board and rig pumping angle shots and its on THE board you have Jim, so it already has the magic stored for you, lol.
200lbs with 5/4 wetsuit, harness, hats and boots more like 208+ lbs
Pumping is a technique that will take ALOT of practice. I see people standing on the board and basically rattle the rig! you have to time the rig pump, board speed, puff and pressure over the foil.
I generally place my foot in the front strap, and time a puff, bear off and scoop the rig towards me and forwards to get forward drive and speed. I have a ton of short clips in my library, but I cannot post just clips on seabreeze it has to be full vids from youtube or vimeo.
Select to expand quoteCoreAS said..
Very interesting video, Dean - you're certainly doing some pumping with the sail, but you seem to mainly concentrate on pumping the board, from what I can see from those videos. It seems especially evident in the first video, with the mast-mounted camera - you sheet in when you pump, but you're not really circling your mast tip around much, as the view from the top of the mast is not circling around the mast foot much at all - it's more pivoting on place. OTOH, you appear to put a lot of pumping motion into the board, which is more evident in the 2nd video with the camera on the rear of the boom - the board goes up and down relative to the boom, but the angle of the horizon relative to the boom doesn't change much.
Whatever you're doing is clearly quite effective, as you're pumping up onto the foil in lighter winds than I can, while still outweighing me by a fair bit. Makes me wonder if maybe I'm overthinking the importance of the circular motion component of pumping??
Regarding pumping the board and the little 'jump' motion - I tried this on my last outing, and I'm presently such a chaotic mess that I can't make claims about what aspects of things are or are not working, but I do believe that the little jump-like motion helped me up onto the foil, as well. I sort of held it off until I started to get a little bit of board speed, but introducing the unweighting move on the last few pumps did seem to help get the board up out of the water a little bit earlier than when I wasn't doing it. (I don't yet have the balance or control to be able to actually pump the foil - along the lines of what the true foil pumping guys do, so right now, I think I'm just relieving some weight from the foil for a brief moment, to try to give the foil a chance to fly after loading it up on the compression into the little hop-like motion at the end of the pump.)
Foiling is definitely a lot more demanding in terms of balance, body position/awareness, etc than regular windsurfing - a lot more technical skill involved!
What the topicstarter is describing sound to me like the difference between pumping a sail off the mast and pumping it off the clew. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, depends on the situation I suppose, and its an axis one should explore for every given sail. Most of the videos above use very stiff racing sails, these are mostly pumped off the masthand. A very soft wavesail with a lot of backhand power can very effectively be pumped off the backhand too. Most sails are in the middle or slightly biased towards the fronthand technique, but from experience the Naish windfoil sail and the North soul.wave (very similar sail but from 2013) for example do very good with backhand pumping.
Both techniques can be synced with pumping the board, as thats mostly dependent on the forward / backward movement on the sail and not whether its opened or closed at the pump phase of the movement.
Which is earlier to fly I dont know. I always feel like the front hand pumping results in more forward speed, but sails which allows pumping from the backhand can feel a lot more powered up for their size as they inflate like a balloon if you pump them from the back hand. I'll leave that one up to you guys to decide ;).
I mostly felt this myself when I switched my quiver out from riding mostly freeride sails to full on foilracing sails using the exact same board & foil a few years ago. We are talking high aspect ish 800-1200cm2 foils.
Select to expand quoteWhiteofHeart said..
What the topicstarter is describing sound to me like the difference between pumping a sail off the mast and pumping it off the clew. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, depends on the situation I suppose, and its an axis one should explore for every given sail. Most of the videos above use very stiff racing sails, these are mostly pumped off the masthand. A very soft wavesail with a lot of backhand power can very effectively be pumped off the backhand too. Most sails are in the middle or slightly biased towards the fronthand technique, but from experience the Naish windfoil sail and the North soul.wave (very similar sail but from 2013) for example do very good with backhand pumping.
Both techniques can be synced with pumping the board, as thats mostly dependent on the forward / backward movement on the sail and not whether its opened or closed at the pump phase of the movement.
Would more than normal outhaul move things toward backhand pumping?
Select to expand quotethedoor said..WhiteofHeart said..
What the topicstarter is describing sound to me like the difference between pumping a sail off the mast and pumping it off the clew. Neither is necessarily right or wrong, depends on the situation I suppose, and its an axis one should explore for every given sail. Most of the videos above use very stiff racing sails, these are mostly pumped off the masthand. A very soft wavesail with a lot of backhand power can very effectively be pumped off the backhand too. Most sails are in the middle or slightly biased towards the fronthand technique, but from experience the Naish windfoil sail and the North soul.wave (very similar sail but from 2013) for example do very good with backhand pumping.
Both techniques can be synced with pumping the board, as thats mostly dependent on the forward / backward movement on the sail and not whether its opened or closed at the pump phase of the movement.
Would more than normal outhaul move things toward backhand pumping?
Not sure, more outhaul also flattens the sail so allows for less of the balloon like inflation. Letting the outhaul go too much kills the power too in my experience as the sail will feel like all the power just flushes out. Also depends hugely on the sail, a foilrace sail will never have the balloon like feeling, while a freestyle sail has a lot of it. Its also not an exact science, just some observations I've made over the years of foiling with different types of sails.
I watched that video that John340 posted the guy with raceboard kit and he is doing full body racing style rig pumps on a very wide board (race foil board) using leverage on the foil.
For pumping freeride foil board and sails, I think the technique is different, my butt does not drop anywhere near as low and I am not doing full sweeping rig pumps, I am way more upright and over the foil.
My style is more similar to thedoor (also using free foil and softer sail) his mast is more upright and his freestyle board is even narrower than the wizards.
I sheet sail out, keep front arm fairly straight, let the puff get between your body and the sail, sheet in about half way with shorter, more punchy rig pumps and then drive that board and foil. The slingshot boards are not as wide as race boards it should release quicker.
Here is another one from the archives, with a 1997 Revo wave sail, looks like I was using the board speed first, then front foot in strap while keeping the rig nice and open with short power pumps.
Select to expand quoteWhiteofHeart said..
Very interesting thoughts/observations regarding sail type and pumping technique!
All of my sails are ancient (from the 90's). The 5.0 that I've been foiling with at home is a North Sails Idra (early 90's) - it's a 4-batten, single-cam design. The upper part of the sail holds it's shape pretty well, but the bottom part is definitely a bit on the baggy side. (Which also allows the draft to move back a bit in gusts, which was never really a problem on my regular windsurf boards - I'd just sit deeper in the harness and sheet in a bit - but I think it has been a definite factor in gusts on the foil, where I'm not using a harness, and my present approach is to sheet out when things start getting overpowered in gusts.)My smaller sails (3.6, 4.3) are same generation North Infinities - with 5 battens and one cam, and are pretty darned solid in terms of draft. My first foiling day was on the 4.3, but it was my first day, so it's hard to draw any conclusions about any effects of the sail that day, LoL. :-)
My 6.0 is a (slightly newer, late-90's) North Pyro, which is a 5-batten, 2-cam sail, which I've always found to have a very stable draft. I have not yet worked up the gumption to foil with the 6.0 - I figure I'm better off waiting for slightly windier days that I can figure things out on a smaller sail that is not presenting challenges of it's own, just due to it's size and balance on a small'ish board.
Anyway, good thoughts on the different technique for different types of sails. I guess I need to experiment a bit more, and also definitely work on developing the opposite direction pumping motion, to see if that works better or worse with different sails in different conditions.
I suppose at some point, I'm going to have to start looking at some newer sails - fingers crossed, the current ones will hold up for a while longer, though!
Select to expand quotejims said..WhiteofHeart said..
Very interesting thoughts/observations regarding sail type and pumping technique!
All of my sails are ancient (from the 90's). The 5.0 that I've been foiling with at home is a North Sails Idra (early 90's) - it's a 4-batten, single-cam design. The upper part of the sail holds it's shape pretty well, but the bottom part is definitely a bit on the baggy side. (Which also allows the draft to move back a bit in gusts, which was never really a problem on my regular windsurf boards - I'd just sit deeper in the harness and sheet in a bit - but I think it has been a definite factor in gusts on the foil, where I'm not using a harness, and my present approach is to sheet out when things start getting overpowered in gusts.)My smaller sails (3.6, 4.3) are same generation North Infinities - with 5 battens and one cam, and are pretty darned solid in terms of draft. My first foiling day was on the 4.3, but it was my first day, so it's hard to draw any conclusions about any effects of the sail that day, LoL. :-)
My 6.0 is a (slightly newer, late-90's) North Pyro, which is a 5-batten, 2-cam sail, which I've always found to have a very stable draft. I have not yet worked up the gumption to foil with the 6.0 - I figure I'm better off waiting for slightly windier days that I can figure things out on a smaller sail that is not presenting challenges of it's own, just due to it's size and balance on a small'ish board.
Anyway, good thoughts on the different technique for different types of sails. I guess I need to experiment a bit more, and also definitely work on developing the opposite direction pumping motion, to see if that works better or worse with different sails in different conditions.
I suppose at some point, I'm going to have to start looking at some newer sails - fingers crossed, the current ones will hold up for a while longer, though!
FWIW..
For new sails, I really like the Sailworks flyer 2 cam. I have both 4.5 and 5.2. Light weight, very stable and power up/pump real nice. I have two Goya wave no cam sails. The small 3.7 size works good as the wind is usually crankin, so not much pumping required. The 5.3 on the other hand is a handful. Heavy, and the draft moves all over the damn place. I felt like I was always chasing the sail trim to find some stability. Probably OK in steady winds, but puff sailing with it was exhausting. I tried more out haul (bad idea). When it does inflate, have to shift weight way back as the power drives the nose of the board down. Not sure if it's the high clue/no foot in the sail, or I'm just old and weak, but that sail is up for sale.
Select to expand quoteWsurfAustin said.. I really like the Sailworks flyer 2 cam.
That's great info, Thanks! Any idea on how those might work for dual-use? (ie, sailing with fin, too?) I'm still not near convinced that I'll give up my regular windsurfing boards when conditions allow for full-powered fin sailing, especially classic bump-n-jump conditions, so I'd ideally like to find sails that'll work reasonably well for both fin and foil sailing. I think my two middle-sized sails (4.3 and 5.0) will need replacing soonest. My 3.6 is in decent shape (it hasn't gotten a huge amount of use over the years), and the 6.0 is a dual cam setup, and was purchased shortly before I stopped sailing years back, so should hold up a good while longer. (though a more modern sail with a higher aspect ratio would eventually be nice for the larger sail...)
I'll start keeping an eye out for used Flyers.
Incidentally, I have a 3.2 that is a wave sail that I got for crazy-overpowered conditions, and I've *never* liked it - just as you note on yours, it's way too twitchy for my taste. It seems that no-cam sails are in vogue these days, and I've admittedly not tried any sails created since the 90's, but I'm an awfully big fan of cams.
The Severne Foilglide and Foilglide 2 are cammed foil sails which work well on a fin, too. My 2018 7.0 4-batten Flyer doesn't feel right on a fin but the newer five-batten Flyers apparently are much better for that purpose.
It sounds like your old North 5.0 may be one of David Ezzy's designs from before he went out on his own. You may be able to cannibalize a tube/rod batten from somewhere to replace that batten with something stiffer to stabilize the draft. If you do, you can even hand-taper the rod part fo force the draft forward a little which is better for foiling. There's pretty good youtube video of a guy doing this to a Retro and I've done it to a Hotsails Speedfreak.
Select to expand quotejims said..WsurfAustin said.. I really like the Sailworks flyer 2 cam.
That's great info, Thanks! Any idea on how those might work for dual-use? (ie, sailing with fin, too?) I'm still not near convinced that I'll give up my regular windsurfing boards when conditions allow for full-powered fin sailing, especially classic bump-n-jump conditions, so I'd ideally like to find sails that'll work reasonably well for both fin and foil sailing. I think my two middle-sized sails (4.3 and 5.0) will need replacing soonest. My 3.6 is in decent shape (it hasn't gotten a huge amount of use over the years), and the 6.0 is a dual cam setup, and was purchased shortly before I stopped sailing years back, so should hold up a good while longer. (though a more modern sail with a higher aspect ratio would eventually be nice for the larger sail...)
I'll start keeping an eye out for used Flyers.
Incidentally, I have a 3.2 that is a wave sail that I got for crazy-overpowered conditions, and I've *never* liked it - just as you note on yours, it's way too twitchy for my taste. It seems that no-cam sails are in vogue these days, and I've admittedly not tried any sails created since the 90's, but I'm an awfully big fan of cams.
Can't speak to any of these sails finning, but my point on the wave sails, was the small sizes work fine IME. it's the larger sizes that were unstable.
I would certainly use all the smaller sails you have. My wave sail is a 3.7, but I wish it were a 3.2 when it gets to 30 knots. I'm not sure of the smallest cam sail available., but when they get that small, the necessity for a cam sail is less important IMO. Tiny sails is high wind and waves is a blast. In 30 knots with my 3.7, I water start, gently lean back and the board hops up on the foil immediately.
ln regards to using wave sails for foiling. You can rig most wave sails to give you more lift by running the extension about 5 to 10 cm longer than printed on the sail and only using enough downhaul to move the battens away from the mast but keeping the leech tight.
The difference is not as significant as switching to a cammed sail but on the low end it will definitely get you going earlier. I think you are better off learning to actively pump the foil onto flight rather than relying on lift from a larger more powerful sail if you are just looking at free riding. Most free ride foils have a relatively low top speed compared to dedicated race foils.
