Select to expand quoteRiowind said..
When installing the inserts first thread a nut onto the M6 screw that you are using to turn the inserts into the wing. After threading the screw almost to the bottom of the insert lock the nut against the insert, That will prevent the screw from tightening against the bottom of the insert and possibly jamming. You can then hold the screw and loosen the nut prior to removing it from the insert.
Go it Riowind, thanks, will definitely do at least one test on hardwood.
Noticed that the bottom of the holes are not straight due to the impact (screws were all leaning to the right), thinking it will be difficult to get self tapping inserts to go in straight. Maybe I should fill in the holes now and re-drill the holes, that way the inserts will go in straight.
Talked with West Systems tech support, they agreed that:
1) the SixTen was the best epoxy.
2) that I should roughen up the outside of the inserts with 100 grit sandpaper and then treat with muriatic acid to etch them.
3) and that I should fill the existing crooked holes in and then drill them out for the inserts to go in straight.
Just have to wait for the new inserts! Got them off Ebay from specialistmarinefasteners, John was very helpful.
Sandman,
Now that you are going to fill and redrill the holes you may want to reconsider using the Binding Barrels. They will be stronger and probably easier to align.
Roughing up the outer surface is easy, Cut off the head of an M6 screw, thread the barrel on and chuck it in a drill motor. Turn on the drill and use a piece of 100 grit sandpaper to rough up the outer surface.
If you are worried about turbulence around the protruding heads you can always fair them in with a bit of Six10 epoxy.
Select to expand quoteRiowind said..
Sandman,
Now that you are going to fill and redrill the holes you may want to reconsider using the Binding Barrels. They will be stronger and probably easier to align.
Roughing up the outer surface is easy, Cut off the head of an M6 screw, thread the barrel on and chuck it in a drill motor. Turn on the drill and use a piece of 100 grit sandpaper to rough up the outer surface.
If you are worried about turbulence around the protruding heads you can always fair them in with a bit of Six10 epoxy.
Riowind, yeah, I think I will wait until I get the new inserts and see how they go into the existing holes first, in a dry fit. If they pull crooked, then either fill holes, and drill, or think of the binding bolts. If they go in straight, then check fit with wing, and epoxy them it.
The problem for me, or anyone doing this, is aligning the foil with a drill press to get straight holes, not easy since the end of the fuselage with the wing holes is "tapered" on the opposite side of the holes. Julien and someone here mentioned using clay, and that would work but not easy even if you have a full size floor model drill press, if I get a drill press it will be a bench top model.
I am going to first try using a T-bar socket to thread the inserts in using a level as a guide (see above picture) and see how that goes, maybe they will go in straight with a little carefully applied force, then add epoxy, re-insert and mount wing just snug to fine tune left to right level if needed while epoxy is wet.
Sandman,
How thick is the wing? Can you clamp it to the fuselage and use it as a drill template? That would give you a through hole roughly the size of the wing's clearance holes. You can get mm sized drill bits from McMaster if you can't find an inch bit that is close enough. Use one that is just slightly smaller than the wing holes. You are not drilling through very much material so it should be relatively easy to keep it straight with a hand drill and not remove any material from the wing. The binding barrels are only 7.5mm dia. If you drill the middle hole first and enlarge it so the binding barrel will fit you then can install the screw and the binding barrel in the center hole to secure the wing. Then check the wing alignment before drilling the other 2 holes.
Riowind, well I figured I should see how the original inserts threaded in using a bolt and nut, like you mentioned. So used a socket wrench with no extension, and a 40mm M6 bolt (10 mm inside insert) which has a 10 mm head, the old inserts screwed in straight because the original grooves are still there. So I think I was over thinking it. The new inserts are slightly larger in OD, but look like they have the same thread pitch so should screw in using the old threads. Was easier than I thought.
So back to plan A, roughen up and etch inserts, dry fit inserts and then mount wing to check alignment, if good then epoxy in inserts and re-mount wing and tape in place while epoxy cures. Since the new inserts will bite better I can snug up the screws on the wing to make sure it is aligned. Will keep in mind your plan Riowind, but I now realize FarNorthWindsurfer was right, really not a big deal refitting the inserts and will keep the foil mast/fuselage T-bar out of the landfill!
I want this foil working again after learning to pump it in-flight this past summer, and since AFS does not make the W95 anymore I would have to get the newer 85 cm mast to use my two wings, and do not want to do that, need the 95 cm for the Summer Seabreeze swells.
Got the new inserts, they went in a little crooked so worked them until straight. I was told the blind inserts had "about" 10 mm of threads inside, but they only take ~8 mm of thread, and that was an issue with my screws since they were too long, so had to cut them down. Original through hole inserts took ~10 mm of thread
The plan now is to epoxy in the inserts and have a long 80 mm screw in each one (without the wing mounted), and then with the mast/fuselage level (using stabilizer as a guide) use the long screws and a square to get the inserts straight and then let the epoxy set. Worse case I have to make a shim to fine tune the level of the wing. And rough up the inserts and treat with muratic acid to etch them so epoxy binds. Hoping the bottom of the blind inserts helps to lock them into the epoxy.
crunch time, holes are prepared, inserts are prepared, getting ready to fill the first hole with epoxy and then screw the insert in, hopefully the blind insert (solid bottom) just pushes excess epoxy out of the hole as I screw it in.
Okay, epoxy is setting up, will make a new post with a detailed how to. Here the foil is upside down, with the fuselage in the vice's pipe clamp, and a level on the stabilizer. The wing three alignment bolts in the inserts are being help straight with silver duck tape.
will get it on the water tomorrow and see if the inserts stay tight, if it works good will post the how to!
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
will get it on the water tomorrow and see if the inserts stay tight, if it works good will post the how to!
Check how long it takes for the epoxy to fully cure.
WillyWind, Epoxy is fully cured after 24 hr at 72 F, it has been 24 hr at 75-79 F, so decided to check how level the wings were after screwed in, the F770 wing was almost dead on level, so put one strip of clear Gorilla tape on wing and now it is perfect! F1080 wing needed two strips of Gorilla tape to be perfect. The advantage of using the clear Gorilla tape on the wing to shim it is you will never loose it. And when I say the wings are level, I mean they are at 90 degrees to the mast, as is the stabilizer. This foil has never been aligned so well!
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
WillyWind, Epoxy is fully cured after 24 hr at 72 F, it has been 24 hr at 75-79 F, so decided to check how level the wings were after screwed in, the F770 wing was almost dead on level, so put one strip of clear Gorilla tape on wing and now it is perfect! F1080 wing needed two strips of Gorilla tape to be perfect. The advantage of using the clear Gorilla tape on the wing to shim it is you will never loose it. And when I say the wings are level, I mean they are at 90 degrees to the mast, as is the stabilizer. This foil has never been aligned so well!
Good to see you have it sorted, well done
If the inserts are installed flush or below the wing saddle surface regardless of any minor insert angle variance I can't see why wings would not tighten down on to the fuse saddle and sit as they would have when gear was brand new (unless the fuse or wings were made warped)
Anyway sounds like you are good to go
Enjoy !
Select to expand quoteFreeflight said..Sandman1221 said..
WillyWind, Epoxy is fully cured after 24 hr at 72 F, it has been 24 hr at 75-79 F, so decided to check how level the wings were after screwed in, the F770 wing was almost dead on level, so put one strip of clear Gorilla tape on wing and now it is perfect! F1080 wing needed two strips of Gorilla tape to be perfect. The advantage of using the clear Gorilla tape on the wing to shim it is you will never loose it. And when I say the wings are level, I mean they are at 90 degrees to the mast, as is the stabilizer. This foil has never been aligned so well!
Good to see you have it sorted, well done
If the inserts are installed flush or below the wing saddle surface regardless of any minor insert angle variance I can't see why wings would not tighten down on to the fuse saddle and sit as they would have when gear was brand new (unless the fuse or wings were made warped)
Anyway sounds like you are good to go
Enjoy !
Thanks Freeflight, that was a job!
The problem with the design of the W95 fuselage is the saddles were too narrow and not well defined with subtle changes around the inserts, while in contrast the wing and stabilizer have well defined mounts, as a result the wing and stabilizer can rock side to side when sitting on the fuselage and so depending on the angle of the screw countersink in the wing and stab., the screws will pull the wing/stab. out of level as you tighten them down. Though the wings and stabilizer both fit pretty snugly front to back. On the newer AFS foils they widened the saddles, that is why the old wings/stab. will not fit the new foils (their mounting area is too narrow), but the new wings will fit the old foils since the new wing mounting area is wider than the saddles on the old foils.
I could see the stabilizer sitting perfectly level on the fuselage, but as I tightened the two screws I could see the stab. lean over to one side, so thought the countersunk holes in the stab. were not straight, and they did not look perfectly centered.
Freeflight, the widest part of the wing saddle on the W95 fuse. is 1-1/8" at the center screw hole, at the front screw hole the saddle is only 3/4" wide, that is not much for a 32" wide wing., and the stab. saddle is a lot narrower.
The other thing is the sides of the saddles are like a boat, wide in the center, narrow on the ends, while front to back the saddles are curved in a crescent, think those factors combined to make the wing and stab. rock easily side to side. Look at the new Starboard wing mounts with parallel sides and flat front to back, that eliminates side to side rocking.
And I could tell the difference when I aligned the stab. with the front wing last Summer, so for racing I can see the advantage of having mounting surfaces that allow for precise alignment of the wing/stab. and mast.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
Freeflight, the widest part of the wing saddle on the W95 fuse. is 1-1/8" at the center screw hole, at the front screw hole the saddle is only 3/4" wide, that is not much for a 32" wide wing., and the stab. saddle is a lot narrower.
The other thing is the sides of the saddles are like a boat, wide in the center, narrow on the ends, while front to back the saddles are curved in a crescent, think those factors combined to make the wing and stab. rock easily side to side. Look at the new Starboard wing mounts with parallel sides and flat front to back, that eliminates side to side rocking.
And I could tell the difference when I aligned the stab. with the front wing last Summer, so for racing I can see the advantage of having mounting surfaces that allow for precise alignment of the wing/stab. and mast.
copy that :-)
My AFS-2 wing was originally a couple degrees cocked off the dead normal to mast, too. The stab was perfect. Under Sailworks' guidance I sanded the "high" side of the fuse wing cradle until it was correct.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
My AFS-2 wing was originally a couple degrees cocked off the dead normal to mast, too. The stab was perfect. Under Sailworks' guidance I sanded the "high" side of the fuse wing cradle until it was correct.
Thanks Segler, I started to do that for the stab. last Summer, but I though it was going to take too much since the left stab. tip was 22 cm out of the plane! The clear Gorilla tape worked perfect for my wings. But like I said, it took two layers of tape for the F1080, and only one layer for the F770, so sanding the wing saddle was not the best option for me. Though what it tells me is that it is probably the angle of the screw hole countersinks that are off and responsible for the different angles for the wings and stab. on my foil.
Will be getting out today, hope I do not lose a wing!, but it has been about 40 hours so epoxy should be fully cured. Lucky I did not use the first inch of epoxy from the SixTen mixing tip, it cured softer and was yellowish compared to what came out afterwards, that cured very hard and whitish.
Tested the foil out today, worked great, and the inserts were solid with no cracks or anything else at the end of the session, foil is fixed!
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
Tested the foil out today, worked great, and the inserts were solid with no cracks or anything else at the end of the session, foil is fixed!
Great job, easy when you know how and very satisfying to save it from landfill. Sure it's probably stronger than it was before the break. Nice write up thanks.
Thanks FarNorthSurfer, and thanks to everyone else for their advice, repaired foil has been out for two sessions now with both the F770 and F1080 wings and the inserts are solid! What a relief to have my AFS W95 foil working again, here's to many more years of amazing fun!
And note that while SixTen epoxy can be put under load after 24 hrs per instructions, it continues to harden. So I did not use the first mixed epoxy that came out of the mixing tip, and after 24 hr it was hard but also flexible, now after 72 hrs it is not nearly as flexible, so it is continuing to harden.
