Giving up Foiling?

Just a curiosity: how many people have given up foiling? Is it just me?

After almost two years and more than a dozen tries I am still struggling with an absurdly limited range of operation and short, when not existent, foiling runs. I spend most of my time slogging. Either because the sail I am using is too small, or because it is too big and I limp back to shore keeping the board down. When I am not slogging I am skipping over the water with the longest foiling run I ever did maybe about 300 meters long. The foil just bloody scares and frustrates me and for the wind conditions where I live it seems to offer just trouble ...

Just to cheer myself up before I get rid of the whole thing, have others had problems with foiling to the point of seriously thinking to give it up and stick to the nice comfort and performance of windsurfing?

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PatK said..
What foil/board do you have/tried?

It is not the foil, I have a Flikka with Moses 790, the cadillac of foiling ... it might be the wind conditions in the San Francisco Bay Area, but I am not really looking for advise, I am just curious to know if others have been so frustrated by foiling that they see little point in continuing ...

Maybe I'll start a twelve steps foil recovery program ... all you see are these wonderful drone movies where people seemingly fly over water without a trouble ... what about the inept pilots?

I started with SB race in very gusty and cold conditions with much weed. It was very frustrating. Now got a Moses 790 and i love it.
My biggest problem with the race is with the 9m hyperfoil sail i have too little wind to get up, when the wind gets more i have too much power at the reach. With the Moses all courses are possible even jibing.

Dave has no waves.
Problem is foiling days are 3-21 knot winds.
3 is balancing slog. Foiling 8-15, then unseen gusts where a 5.0 and 90 liters is flying around.
That's 1/3rd semi fun and 2/3rd pure work. We have wind to windsurf 175 days each season with 5.2 and 90 liter boards.

I know about one local windsurfer who has almost given up on foiling. She was an early adapter, and was sold gear that was adequate for an expert foiler in good conditions, but impossible to learn on. The company eventually corrected this partially, but she still has a small front wing that requires 15 mph if you know what you're doing. Hard to learn on.

I have seen others who were having such a hard time that they looked ready to give up - they certainly had not reached the "fun" stage. Usually, the cause was pretty obvious - mix and match gear that was unbalanced. Not having the foil at the right place, or having too small a board, can make foiling amazingly different. That still happens to me every now and then when I try different settings or boards.

Then there is isobars, famous on the US forum, who eventually gave up. In his case, the primary cause for his problems was impaired balance. Sub-optimal conditions probably contributed.

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duzzi said..
After almost two years and more than a dozen tries I am still struggling with an absurdly limited range of operation and short, when not existent, foiling runs. I spend most of my time slogging.

About twenty tries of more than a year sounds like another recipe for failure, especially in sub-optimal conditions. It takes about 10 sessions before the adjustments become automatic, and these 10 sessions need to be reasonably close together (e.g. one summer), with decent conditions in at least some of them. Space the sessions too far apart, and your body never learns what it needs to learn. I've seen the exact opposite with the local "wing girl". The first sessions were a really hard fight, with very little success. But she persisted and got in 20 sessions in a month, and now gets compliments from random kiters, and has been asked if she teaches. Foiling through jibes has become a trivial thing for her. Conditions here are decent for winging, but by no means perfect. The huge range of the wing (currently 14 - 30 mph averages with gusts in the high 30s) helped to get that many sessions in.

The "absurdly limited range of operation" indicates that your setup may not be balanced correctly. The front wing may be too far forward or too far back, or the board you're using may make learning much harder than necessary. Sometimes, even moving the mast base a couple of cm can have a suprisingly large impact. Perhaps try to get an experienced foiler to try your gear and get some feedback.

If things are adjusted correctly, the wind range of a foil is quite nice. I can usually foil comfortably on one sail where I'd use 2-3 sail sizes when windsurfing. Yesterday's range, for example, was 12 - 28 mph, and there were maybe 2 minutes in the 2 hour session where I was waiting for a gust. Can't wait to get a wing, though, because their wind range is even larger.

I wonder if Duzzi's type of experience is pushing windfoilers to the wing.

Seems to me that there is windfoiling (long flights in relatively flat water and low to mod winds, touch down gybes) and windfoiling (low to high winds, foiling gybes, swell riding, jumping aka WA slingshot crew). Seems to me that getting to that second level of windfoiling is not the easiest thing to do and if someone was stuck in the first level of windfoiling the wing might look pretty appealing. (I am sure there are tonnes of other things about the wing that are appealing)

Looks like Duzzi is where most of us were after 12 sessions.

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Paducah said..

duzzi said..
Just a curiosity: how many people have given up foiling? Is it just me?

After almost two years and more than a dozen tries I am still struggling with an absurdly limited range of operation and short, when not existent, foiling runs. I spend most of my time slogging. Either because the sail I am using is too small, or because it is too big and I limp back to shore keeping the board down. When I am not slogging I am skipping over the water with the longest foiling run I ever did maybe about 300 meters long. The foil just bloody scares and frustrates me and for the wind conditions where I live it seems to offer just trouble ...

Just to cheer myself up before I get rid of the whole thing, have others had problems with foiling to the point of seriously thinking to give it up and stick to the nice comfort and performance of windsurfing?

Time for an intervention. duzzi, we are here for you. It took a bit of strength to say, "Okay, this sucks and I'm not having fun."

First, very sorry that you've seem to have hit a wall. I'm sure it's absolutely frustrating when you read post after post of people having a different experience and, meanwhile, you are getting your butt handed to you each time you go out.

Second, the hard part for someone experienced like yourself (I'm assuming you are from what I've gathered from your previous comments) is that you've spent years getting good so you don't have to go out each time to get flattened and come in with your tail between your legs.

What a lot of us have found is that foils have even more range than a finned board and that's one of the great appeals. The question is how do we get you there? As CYVRWoody mentioned, a few sessions in a tamer location may be the ticket: relatively steady 15-20 and flat water. It's like a snow skier starting on a black diamond run - even if you make it down, you spend so much time in survival mode that you never get a chance to learn and re-enforce proper habits.

If you can't make it to a more docile spot, it may be worth being choosy about when you decide to foil. A local guy was all gung ho and went out in everything and eventually hit a wall, too, and was ready to quit. Part of the answer was not going sometimes. Those gusty days? Give 'em a pass. Give yourself the proper chance to succeed. btw, he got over the hump and is having a ball now.

I think I remember that you've maybe changed gear? What are you riding currently?

It does get better. And, I think I speak for a lot of people here that we are willing to help, encourage and cheer every step of the way. We fully expect you to be posting in a year how much fun you're having.

Yes, the hardest part is indeed that I just do not get in trouble with a windsurf. When I mentioned "the absurdly limited range" of the foil, I was of course referring to the foil range associated with my skill ... but the reality is that with my 95L slalom board I can go out with a 6.5 in nicely powered conditions, and still be out happily when the wind comes up and B&J are on their 4.7-5.0. Only when the wind gets to 4.2 I retreat ... but just because it is a bit silly, not because I am out of control and fearing for my life!

To partly justify my ineptitude, as LeeD mentioned the main problem is that around here we NEVER get STEADY wind OR FLAT water conditions. The wind is gusty, there is a lot of gradient, and it can change a lot in a half hour. Still many people are doing it ... although boardsurfr is right: they all did persevere before getting somewhere. I am probably at fewer than 12 good wind sessions total ... the sum total of good days is likely 5 or 6.

This is a good advise: "If you can't make it to a more docile spot, it may be worth being choosy about when you decide to foil." Yep, just wait for Fall and Winter and give it another try ... (or go biking ...)

Anyway, thanks for the support ... I am glad to hear that some others gave up or hit a wall!but maybe I will be in a different place by next Spring ...

I sail on a lake here in Colorado that has HORRIBLE wind in regards to consistency. 0-25... good luck with that! On top of that, the lake isn't very big (.2 miles across). This lake (Big Soda Lake, BTW) will make you a better sailor, especially foiling. The gusts can be small (10 ft bands) to longer (whole lake is lit up with white caps). It's a funky thermal we deal with on a regular basis.
The people that struggle with Foiling the most (in my observation), are those that are good windsurfers. I sucked at windsurfing, but picked up foiling pretty quickly... I didn't bring in the bad habits. But I searched for the easiest setup to learn with and here's what I found.

Wing: 1000-1300 cm size seems right for beginners. larger wings lift too much, and smaller too less. Just because it's bigger, doesn't mean it's easier.

Fuse. longer the more stable. Seems like many are asking for the longer fuses. they are much more stable and are more resistant to quick changes.

Board Size: WIDE and floaty boards. Another BIG mistake is that traditional windsurfers think smaller the board, the better. This is incorrect with foiling. You want a fast planning board. I use the SB Foil 177, and I run circles around the slingshot guys. I can fly in very light wind and learn quicker. the bigger the platform, the easier it is to move your feet around to find the sweet spots. Beginners on Slingshots here in Colorado struggle like hell to learn. Having tried out many of those boards, the bigger board is not only easier, but just as maneuverable once in the air.

To say the Moses is the Cadillac may not be accurate. The foils look to be short/high lift, which can be frustrating to work with. If you can put a longer fuse and the correct wing (see above), it might help out.

here's a few videos from our lake

12 sessions in 2 years is one attempt every 2 months, no way will you make any meaningful progress that way.

As far as gusty conditions go, they aren't ideal for foiling or windsurfing in general, but once you are foiling the gusts are easier to handle and you get more wind range compared to non foilong. Just rig about 0.5m to 1m smaller than you would rig on a slapper. I usually go with the sail size that I can barely waterstart.

Also when learning you probably don't want the Cadillac of foils, depending on your skill level. You want the dog slow foil. The quick foils are so efficient that you will be doing 18kts+ very quickly which is fkn scary when you are learning. You want a slow fat low aspect foil, that won't break 15kts. You might quickly outgrow it but there's enough second hand gear out there you can probably buy and sell something cheap at minimal financial cost.

I think when I got serious about trying foiling I had 12 sessions in a month. 3 months later I'm jumping and gybing and haven't slapped since, I will still slappa if it's super windy, but our conditions are rarely 20kts+ and flat water so foiling fills a big hole that was previously not as enjoyable to slap. Being able to cruise upwind and downwind as well as jump in flat water when it's 12kts is hugely more fun then cruising on a reach trying to stay upwind.

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PatK said..
I started with SB race in very gusty and cold conditions with much weed. It was very frustrating. Now got a Moses 790 and i love it.
My biggest problem with the race is with the 9m hyperfoil sail i have too little wind to get up, when the wind gets more i have too much power at the reach. With the Moses all courses are possible even jibing.

I have the 790 and need a constant 15kn plus so 90% of the time I use my 1100 Moses foil wing for Windwing which should be similar.

I agree with indecentExposur going out in gusty conditions will make you a better foiler. It is challenging in the beginning but gets better. There is nothing more satisfying then foiling in gusty winds never touching the water. The ability to link together gusts by pumping the board and sail looking around and gybing at the right time. Anyone can foil around in a steady 15kts. But in gusty winds reading the water conditions(finding gusts) and gybing at the right moment can be a matter of foiling for the next 5 minutes or being stuck in the mud, a great session or feeling frustrated.

I've been struggling also for a year or two, lake sailing with gusty winds. I started with a home made foil (worked, but was it good, don't know). Then the slingshot 'blue' wings. But everyone else seemed to have an easier time and I was always up then down quickly. The big change for me was getting an 'easier' wing, the large slingshot i84 and i99. Heaps easier then the earlier wings. I also switched to lighter sails. Maybe hunt down easier gear for learning? The big wings go through lulls and with gusts, have a top speed so you can just let the sail out and glide along.

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KDog said..
I'll just say that foiling is not for everyone and until you can foil jibe it's not much fun

I disagree. I still can't jibe well after 100+ foil sessions, but I can tack all day long. I find foil tacks on my old slalom boards just as easy as longboard tacks, but a lot more fun since the turning is much easier. But the board matters. I found the Fanatic Stingray 125 easy to tack, but the Slingshot Wizard 125 a lot harder.

I agree with IndecentExposur that larger boards can have a big advantage if you're learning, and/or foil at a place with variable wind. Part of my jibe problems are often misplaced feet, which happens quite easily on a narrow-tailed board. So after a year of foiling, I finally ordered a foil-specific board that's wider, and should be easier to jibe.

I'm actually a bit frustrated that I always push the nose of my board under water in the tacks when I switch sides. I may have 8 knots dead into the wind, but sinking the nose really kills the speed. I started thinking I should do old school duck tacks instead of regular tacks to avoid the nose dives, but I don't really do these in 20+ knots of apparent wind. But then, who besides Balz does?

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boardsurfr said..I still can't jibe well after 100+ foil sessions, but I can tack all day long. I find foil tacks on my old slalom boards just as easy as longboard tacks, but a lot more fun since the turning is much easier. But the board matters. I found the Fanatic Stingray 125 easy to tack, but the Slingshot Wizard 125 a lot harder.

Is there a particular issue you're having gybing?
If you (or anyone else) don't have anyone local to offer advice see if you can get a video of your gybes and post them here.

There's a number of us in the SS crew here comfortable gybing (freeride) - we might be able to offer advice and we'd be stoked if we can help

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thedoor said..

Maddlad said..
I agree with Swoosh and the others that have said its your foil mate. You want something that gets going early, and is very cruisy. You dont want something fast and sleek like a race foil if you're learning. You need something that will get you up and stay on the foil at slow speeds so you can just feather your sail in the gusts. I know you didnt want advice, but there are many of us who understand how it feels to want to quit, and we also know its worth persevering, but you need to have the right gear. I started on a NP aluminium pinky and when i swapped to the Starboard GTR everything got a lot easier. Now i use Starboard race foils and its so much fun. I really feel you will love it once you get the right set up. All the best either way. :)

I thought the moses 790 was similar to the slingshot infinity 76, which has to be one of the best wings to learn on for regular size dudes, so I dont think that is the issue. Maybe other aspects of how his kit is setup but more likely TOW.

Yes, the Moses 790 is the "rich man" all carbon version of the infinity 76. Smooth and not too reactive foil, nice longish fuselage, easy 85 mast. The Moses seems big enough for me at my 160 pounds. I went down a bit the equipment rabbit hole: I owned a Taaroa Noe the first year of foiling and despite the reviews I read on the French forum it was way harder to deal with. I sold it quickly ...

Martyj4: no problem suggesting to have the rig checked by a friend. It is a good suggestion. I did and the response was that is is a good set up ... It is the pilot and the lack of time on the water. And the difficulty: for me windfoiling ain't as easy as windsurfing! Not even close.

Utcminusfour: my gods!!!!!!!! 50 sessions!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think I will have the patience ...

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duzzi said..

Yes, the Moses 790 is the "rich man" all carbon version of the infinity 76. Smooth and not too reactive foil, nice longish fuselage, easy 85 mast. The Moses seems big enough for me at my 160 pounds. I went down a bit the equipment rabbit hole: I owned a Taaroa Noe the first year of foiling and despite the reviews I read on the French forum it was way harder to deal with. I sold it quickly ...

Martyj4: no problem suggesting to have the rig checked by a friend. It is a good suggestion. I did and the response was that is is a good set up ... It is the pilot and the lack of time on the water. And the difficulty: for me windfoiling ain't as easy as windsurfing! Not even close.

One man's thoughts... It's not going to take 50 sessions. It's going to take one nice session in relatively flat water with steady winds where you have fun and don't fight it. This has to be fun - no one here is getting paid to do this. You just need that one day where you aren't beating your head on the wall. Sure, most of the rides will be a bit short. You'll skip along and then suddenly you'll notice the flights are getting a bit longer. It's okay if you are barely out of the water. Just skip along and enjoy the silence when you are up in the air. Relax, quit looking down at the front of your board (I know you are...) and be in the moment.

You need to be in a spot where you can get a positive feed back loop going. If you are foiling in big gusts and chop, there is too much signal noise to figure it out without the touch of masochism that some have. Or maybe rig both bits of kit, foil for a little while and when it gets annoying, pop on the regular gear. Don't measure anything. Don't worry about how far you flew. Don't worry about how high you were off the water. Don't think you have to look like anyone in a youtube video (well, may Sam Ross). Maybe experiment with moving the back foot around. Move the boom up and down a couple of cm and see what difference that makes. Learn like kids do by playing and experimenting.

Have a good local follow you and maybe they can offer something. They may notice you are doing just a touch too much of this or that. If they are a good teacher, they'll offer an idea or two for you to think about. It may be something you haven't even considered before.

If you get to a sticking point, "If I do this then things go all wonky," come back here and we'll help you suss it out. Remember when you started windsurfing and learning one small thing that suddenly made a big difference? It's like that. It's going to be something small that will flip the switch for you.

duzzi, YOU GOT THIS!