First foil choice

Hello All,
I'm trying to decide on which first foil to get. I've read a lot here and have gotten messages from a few people on this forum, but I feel a paralyzed on the choice. I'm afraid of making the wrong choice, and the cost is not cheap. What I would hope to get is:
easier to learn on
good light wind range
probably use it more for back and forth reaching 10-24knots - Grantmac and Windbot know where I sail and I don't think there is a lot of swell (grantmac and windbot: rare day at Jericho?)

I'm about 65 kg and for now I'll be using a 115L 66cm wide freeride board with a foil ready deep tuttle fin box.

I think the top choices at this time would be the fwind i76 or i84 from Slingshot or Neil Pryde medium front wing. I think the i76 would be the best overall wing for me from what I've read, but it seems like many people prefer the i84 or i99 for low wind (and often they are heavier but it's not clear to me how much that matters). The NP medium wing is also maybe not the best for light wind. I'm guessing on this, and I don't even know if I ultimately will want to go out when the wind is hovering around 10 knots. The NP would likely cost about $300 less than a slingshot or other brand, which isn't insignificant. It could also be that I'm asking too much from only one wing/foil - and then something like the i76 or NP medium might sit right in between two wings that I "should" get.
Any last advice?
thanks

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shmish said..
...and often they are heavier but it's not clear to me how much that matters

imho, it matters. Smaller, like you. I'm using smaller sails and wings than my friends and flying as soon or sooner. I"m 20% lighter than windbot so if II use a 20% smaller wing, it's doing the same work. You are 25% lighter than Windbot. Scale accordingly. Too big of a wing is draggy and a handful as the wind picks up.

The NP Glides do pretty well from what I've seen. This is the Medium Slim with a 5.1

At your weight the 76 infinity would probably be fine. If you want a lot of lift you could go 84, I'm 90kl and love the 84 and have just gotten the 99 to be as skunkproof as possible! 76 or 84 and you'll be fine.

At only 65kg, I agree the i76 wing will be plenty of wing.
For the first two or three sessions the bigger wings may easier, but from then on the hardest thing to learn is how to deal with too much lift. It takes a long time to learn how to apply the combination of mast foot and front foot pressure. If your wing is too big then it will make your life difficult.

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MagicRide said..
I'm 175 pounds, not a heavy guy and I went with the i84. I love this wing. Like you, I researched a tone before my purchase. The wind range I chose to use it in is 10-18 mph. Perfect wind range. Most people suggested me getting the i84 and I listened with no regrets. I asked a lot if the i76 would have been better, but I read I need at least 14 mph of wind to get the i76 foiling, where the i84 will foil in 10 mph of wind. The i84 is plenty quick for me. I clocked it at 18.2 mph. Not fast for traditional windsurfing, but plenty fast in the air on foil. Good luck to ya!

I foil all the time with 1000-1100 cm2 wings in that range with sub 6 sails. It's really not necessary, especially for someone 60-65 kg to have that much wing. OP weight 30 lb less than you. If the 84 is right for you, the 76 is probably right for the OP. A bigger wing for the OP will hardly gain any bottom end but will overpower more easily and be more sluggish in the turns.

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thedoor said..
Get the 76 and add the 99 later if want to push the super light wind envelop (but this might require a different board, it did for me). If you want a one wing option and won't mind the loss of speed from the 76 which is noticeable then get the 84....

thedoor, how much do you weigh?

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thedoor said..

Paducah said..

thedoor said..
Get the 76 and add the 99 later if want to push the super light wind envelop (but this might require a different board, it did for me). If you want a one wing option and won't mind the loss of speed from the 76 which is noticeable then get the 84....

thedoor, how much do you weigh?

75kg

How much bottom end does the 99 add for you vs your smaller wings?

fwiw, the 84 under his 65 kg is almost the identical wingloading as the 99 under your 75 (about 3.15 g/cm2) with the benefit of less drag. (A 90kg foiler would need over 2800cm2 to have the same wingloading, an infinity120 as it were)

I agree with you that starting off with the 76 would be preferable. I'm not sold on bigger and bigger wings for small folks (speaking as a 70kg rider). I've flown the i84 before and it's like foiling on a pontoon boat - not my cup of tea although I fully understand the benefits for heavier riders. I just don't need that big of a wing with the accompanying drag and I live in a very wind starved locale. I am open to other's opinions which is why I ask.

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thedoor said..
I think the 99 provides a big difference relative to the 76. I can get up earlier and I can motor thru more lulls. The biggest sail I have is a 5.7, so 5.7/99 versus 5.7/76 will probably get me going in 3-5mph less wind (10-12 versus 13-15). But the difference in stall speed may be greater than 20-30% and that may have the biggest impact. During my light wind sessions on the 99 there will be much less schlogging versus same sail on the 76. Is your preference, when the wind drops, just to keep with a smaller wing and rig bigger?

I am not sure if its as simple as bodyweight/wing surface area, but I do see your point and I am hard pressed to come up with any meaningful other math. haha

The only negative I find for the 99 is the top speed, which is very close to the i84. The 99 is very maneuverable even at slow speeds. However, I ride the 99 on a big wide board (levi 150) that is not as quick rail to rail as my 76/freestyle 115.

I've been pushing the boundary of my small sail/big wing lately. If I'm up and going, I can easily use my 5.4/1100 wing down to 11 or 10 and using a thicker 1500 surf foil, down to probably about 7-8 (water almost starting to get glassy instead of ruffled). It takes a fair amount of "rider input" to stay up in the lightest of winds.

Below that I can either go big sail (7.7)/smaller (1000) wing or big sail/surf wing (5-maybe 9 or 10 - the kind of day where you really don't see a proper whitecap). However, my preference if I'm using a big sail is to use a smaller wing. The acceleration is so much fun and where I might be pushing to get the surf wing to 14ish, the 1000 might be doing 18-19 in the same conditions (my phone app calls out the speed so pretty clear what's going on). The biggest thing the 1000 wing gives up is the ability to jibe in seemingly no wind - probably the same for your 99.

Thanks. I appreciate your input - upon further reflection you are using the 76/99 combo the same way I do my 1000/1500. If you go big, go real big.

More Glide action

Another thing with the Glide is that it's sold as a kit with either the medium or small. Reading about people's typical foil size and uses, my guess is that the best wing combo with the Glide is a Large and Medium Slim.

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shmish said..

I think the top choices at this time would be the fwind i76 or i84 from Slingshot or Neil Pryde medium front wing.

I've got a direct comparison of the i76 and i84 for different weights. My wife is about your weight, and has mostly sailed the i76. I'm around 195 lb and usually on the i84. We mostly use old windsurf boards (89 l FS and 117 l / 71 cm slalom). We need about 11 knots readings from the iWindsurf meters to foil on 5.2/6.5 (which is about 9 knots measured on shore if the fetch is good). It's more fun when the wind goes up to 13 knots and we use smaller sails.

One big difference when using the wings in windsurf board is positioning of the foil. The i76 sits further forward on the fuse, and is not as long, which means the center of effort is almost 2 inches further forward on the i76. On my slalom board, that means the i76 works well in C position, but the i84 is so far back that it needs a lot of backfoot pressure. I've tried to fix that by drilling an extra hole in the fuse for a D position, which helped a lot, but the fuse broke at the empty hole between mast and wing after ~ 50 sessions, so that's not a good solution. If you're going with a Slingshot foil and your board, you'll probably find the i76 will be better balanced. The NP Glides seem designed for windsurf boards, and may work better.

With respect to bottom end, I'd guess that going from the i76 to the i84 adds perhaps one or two knots. At my weight, I find the i84 easier to pump; with the i76, I have to be a bit more careful. But my wife, who's more comparable to you in weight, actually starting using the Time Code 68 instead of the i76 most of the time. But that may be because the smaller TC68 matches her narrow board better. Now that she started wingsurfing and I don't have a fuse with a "D" position anymore, she's actually on the i84, and I'm on the i76 or (in 15 knots+) the TC68.

Bottom line: start with the i76 or the NP medium. Chances are you'll add another front wing (or two or three) sooner or later, anyway.

I have i76 and recently added an i99. Im 90kg. In your position I would just go for i76. As your skills develop you might choose to add an i84 or a smaller front wing, but for now an i76 will do 90%+ of what you want to do, and can hit an exciting top speed comparable to windsurf freeride/B&J blasting. The downside of the i99 (and from what I read the i84) is that the top speed is compromised and can feel a little bit pedestrian - which is fine on those super light days when the alternative is mowing the lawn, but its not an ideal one wing solution unless almost all of your winds are sub teens (kts).

At 65kg that's pretty light, If you are wanting to foil say in the 10-20 knot spectrum then go i76
You will not be having a good time on it at 25 knots and will want a i65 or Time Code 68

if you are wanting to foil in the 8-15 knot spectrum go i84.

If you want to go REALLY light and crapola gusty winds, then the i99 but you may experience some back foot pressure until you get it finely tuned just right.

If you are getting confused, just get the i76 and be done with it. Very versatile, accepts a wide range of boards and sails, and is quite adjustable. Go for it.

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segler said..
If you are getting confused, just get the i76 and be done with it. Very versatile, accepts a wide range of boards and sails, and is quite adjustable. Go for it.

I've been waiting for the fwind to come back in stock. I did find a dealer in the USA with them in stock but I'd save $200+ if I get it from a retailer in Canada. They've been expecting new stock for a couple of weeks so who knows what's going on. I must admit, even though there are many happy SS users, I'm a bit meh on how the mast attaches to the fuselage. Obviously it must work ok otherwise there would be tons of unhappy users.

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shmish said..

duzzi said..

shmish said..
Hello All,
I'm trying to decide on which first foil to get. I've read a lot here and have gotten messages from a few people on this forum, but I feel a paralyzed on the choice. I'm afraid of making the wrong choice, and the cost is not cheap. What I would hope to get is:
easier to learn on
good light wind range
probably use it more for back and forth reaching 10-24knots - Grantmac and Windbot know where I sail and I don't think there is a lot of swell (grantmac and windbot: rare day at Jericho?)

I'm about 65 kg and for now I'll be using a 115L 66cm wide freeride board with a foil ready deep tuttle fin box.

I think the top choices at this time would be the fwind i76 or i84 from Slingshot or Neil Pryde medium front wing. I think the i76 would be the best overall wing for me from what I've read, but it seems like many people prefer the i84 or i99 for low wind (and often they are heavier but it's not clear to me how much that matters). The NP medium wing is also maybe not the best for light wind. I'm guessing on this, and I don't even know if I ultimately will want to go out when the wind is hovering around 10 knots. The NP would likely cost about $300 less than a slingshot or other brand, which isn't insignificant. It could also be that I'm asking too much from only one wing/foil - and then something like the i76 or NP medium might sit right in between two wings that I "should" get.
Any last advice?
thanks

Get a Moses freeride 790. It has a perfect sized 850 mast and the wing easily covers a wind range of 6 to 20 plus knots. Maybe more expensive but much better build, and you will not need to purchase multiple wings.

That would be sweet but would cost me about $3000 Canadian. I wonder why they stopped making the aluminum program. I also think a deep tuttle would be significantly better than medium tuttle, which is what came with the aluminum masts (at least from what I saw on a retailer's webpage).

www.silentsports.com/foiling/windsurf/moses-foil-kit-vento-85-tuttle/kbm18kve/

2000CAD, best price anywhere and they say should be back in stock in 30ish days. At the very least you can probably put down a deposit.
I came VERY close to getting one but found a good price on a Supercruiser instead.