Now that I know what it feels like and how far back I need to put my rear foot to get foiling, I think I could probably get the 6.6 to work. I really needed to understand what it felt like to stay up on that board, and it didn't happen without having lots of power on tap. I *think* I understand what I'll need to do in order to change my pumping, but I won't find out until I try.
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..
I *think* I understand what I'll need to do in order to change my pumping, but I won't find out until I try.
If you can waterstart, you have enough wind to get foiling without having to pump, even on the i76. I think you'll be better off to focus on getting a better feel for the foil than on pumping the sail. That can be stance adjustments, trimming, or little pumps of the foil only. Once you get it, you'll be surprised how much difference it makes.
The problem is there are 3x more non-waterstart kind of days here than waterstart days, and often I'd rather slap on a fin and go fast without messing with the foil. It'll just take time. This weekend may be good time to try again with good wind.
Practice uphauling, and postpone waterstarting for later when you get better. Right now your whole focus has to be on stance, balance, rig control, pitch control, and the whole new muscle memory of foiling. Yes, it is completely new compared to finning.
Yeah Segler I wasn't waterstarting even though I was powered up enough on the 8.0 that it would've been easy. I'm not quite comfortable enough waterstarting with the big sharp foil underneath now anyway, I've been doing it when I don't have to work much with a fin. Uphauling the 8.0 isn't that bad for me, much easier than the 9.5. When i uphaul the 6.6 or 5.8 it feels much, much easier. I'm hoping for a good windy day where the 6.6 is powered up and I can just set up one board with foil and another with fin and just play around until I get worn out after a few hours.
Foil is worth 1.5-2 meters of sail size.
So, 9 meters fin =7.5 meter windfoil. Tuned for light wind.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Foil is worth 1.5-2 meters of sail size.
So, 9 meters fin =7.5 meter windfoil. Tuned for light wind.
What LeeD said. If you go out on 6.6 or 5.8 on a foil when that's the right call for a fin, especially with your big wing, you are going to be overpowered. All it takes is a gust to get off the water with the smaller sail and then you can glide through the lulls that would stop you on a fin. If you are going to do a dual purpose session, when the wind drops so your 6.6/5.8 isn't enough a lot of the time, that's the time to get the foil out.
Save the 8.0 for a day when there's no hope of sailing the 8.0 with a fin. During the lulls when you aren't on the foil, make your way upwind. When the gust comes, bear off to a broad reach, put the back foot in the middle and give it a couple of encouraging pumps. Don't turn up wind until you are solidly powered on the foil. Once you are on the foil fully powered, you can go back upwind as much as you please - certainly more than the fin.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
Don't turn up wind until you are solidly powered on the foil. Once you are on the foil fully powered, you can go back upwind as much as you please - certainly more than the fin.
I did notice that on Saturday. When I was on foil, I could point ridiculously higher at that location than I ever could with a fin. Was a welcome experience.
This weekend is looking for a good time for either the 5.8 or 6.6 and the foil if the wind turns out. Hoping I'm not skunked on the weather.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
We are overthinking this. Just use the i76 with 42 stab in the B position and stop there. No need for any other wings or stabs. Use it with 4.0 to 8.0 sails in all winds. It just works.
Agreed! In my opinion the 84 and 99 don't add that much to the low end but are really slow and rear footed. It's like having some seaweed stuck on the i76.
Select to expand quotesimonp123 said..segler said..
We are overthinking this. Just use the i76 with 42 stab in the B position and stop there. No need for any other wings or stabs. Use it with 4.0 to 8.0 sails in all winds. It just works.
Agreed! In my opinion the 84 and 99 don't add that much to the low end but are really slow and rear footed. It's like having some seaweed stuck on the i76.
That's great, but in the dozen or so sessions with the i76 i was just getting more and more frustrated and foiling at most 3 feet distance, slogging the foil through the rest, on days that i could've been finned and having fun. I99 changed that for me so far
Select to expand quotesimonp123 said..
In my opinion the 84 and 99 don't add that much to the low end but are really slow and rear footed. It's like having some seaweed stuck on the i76.
You obviously did not have the 84 or 99 in the correct position you found them to be "rear footed". Since they have the center of lift further back than the 76, that will happen if you just mount it in the same position.
When I started with the 84, I did not quite get the performance I expected from the i84 in the old slalom board I used, either. As a relative beginner, I could not diagnose what was going on. My wife, who had a balanced setup and was a better foiler, diagnosed it right away. As soon as I moved the foil forward, things got a lot better. I suddenly was able to pump the foil easily, which had been pretty much impossible before. I eventually put tracks into the board and used the foil about 10 cm further forward than in would have been in the tuttle box in C position. It works very well there, giving me a couple of knots on the low end. Speed is just a knot lower than on the i76. Sensitivity to water currents is quite a bit higher, which can be disturbing at first, but a lot of fun once you get used to it.
Judging a foil that's not mounted correctly is a bit like rigging a sail without any downhaul and then saying it's bad.
Depending on rider weight, skill and local conditions each infinity wing will yield a different result.
The Low end (stall speed) of the i84 and i99 is far superior to the i76, but you will will give up a bit of top end and maneuverability with the bigger wings.
Select to expand quotesimonp123 said..segler said..
We are overthinking this. Just use the i76 with 42 stab in the B position and stop there. No need for any other wings or stabs. Use it with 4.0 to 8.0 sails in all winds. It just works.
Agreed! In my opinion the 84 and 99 don't add that much to the low end but are really slow and rear footed. It's like having some seaweed stuck on the i76.
I tried i76, 84 and 99 with my levitator 160. In general i99 is much better for 10-12 mph days while i76 does not lift me in that condition. It makes a huge difference for saving the day when I use i99 in those conditions.
My whole point is that the i76 with its 1550 cm2 of wing area is PLENTY of lift for any body weight on planet earth. I weigh 95 kg, and I do use a i76 in Florida, but at home I never need to go over 1120 cm2 for any conditions. The monster wings are, I think, overkill for windfoiling, but definitely the cat's meow for SUP and surf.
Here's the deal. A foil--any foil--needs forward speed to fly. You get that with sail power. We all know this from 30 years of windsurfing.
If you are finding that you cannot get flight with a i76 in the light wind conditions you chose, just rig a bigger sail. You don't need a bigger foil. The i76 is plenty.
A great example. Yesterday I foiled with a friend on the Snake River in eastern WA state. We both used 6.4 sails (different cuts, yes). He weighs 170 lb, I weigh 195 lb. He was foiling with a Moses 790 1550 cm2 (about the same as the i76), I was foiling with a LP with 940 cm2. We were out in light winds of 12-15 mph. He had it over me on flight threshold, but just barely: maybe 1 mph boat speed. When we pumped to get going he came up into flight about 2 seconds before I did. We both had the same ability to keep flying into the lulls. I had it all over him in overall flight speed when up and powered. Yes, my 940 cm2 wing has a slightly higher aspect ratio than his 1550 cm2.
This comparison is exactly what you would expect. No surprises. I rarely foil with anything bigger than my 940 cm2 here at home. Sometimes, just for giggles, I will take out the 1120 cm2. My 1300 cm2 languishes in the van, never used, never needed. In Florida my i76 is my only ride, so I use it there and enjoy it. Nowhere have I ever wished I had a bigger foil. Again, if I am not flying, it means I am not generating enough forward boat speed to fly. I rig a bigger sail to solve that problem.
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..simonp123 said..segler said..
We are overthinking this. Just use the i76 with 42 stab in the B position and stop there. No need for any other wings or stabs. Use it with 4.0 to 8.0 sails in all winds. It just works.
Agreed! In my opinion the 84 and 99 don't add that much to the low end but are really slow and rear footed. It's like having some seaweed stuck on the i76.
That's great, but in the dozen or so sessions with the i76 i was just getting more and more frustrated and foiling at most 3 feet distance, slogging the foil through the rest, on days that i could've been finned and having fun. I99 changed that for me so far
If you could have been planing with a fin the the problem was technique, likely rigging too big.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
My whole point is that the i76 with its 1550 cm2 of wing area is PLENTY of lift for any body weight on planet earth. I weigh 95 kg, and I do use a i76 in Florida, but at home I never need to go over 1120 cm2 for any conditions. The monster wings are, I think, overkill for windfoiling, but definitely the cat's meow for SUP and surf.
Here's the deal. A foil--any foil--needs forward speed to fly. You get that with sail power. We all know this from 30 years of windsurfing.
If you are finding that you cannot get flight with a i76 in the light wind conditions you chose, just rig a bigger sail. You don't need a bigger foil. The i76 is plenty.
A great example. Yesterday I foiled with a friend on the Snake River in eastern WA state. We both used 6.4 sails (different cuts, yes). He weighs 170 lb, I weigh 195 lb. He was foiling with a Moses 790 1550 cm2 (about the same as the i76), I was foiling with a LP with 940 cm2. We were out in light winds of 12-15 mph. He had it over me on flight threshold, but just barely: maybe 1 mph boat speed. When we pumped to get going he came up into flight about 2 seconds before I did. We both had the same ability to keep flying into the lulls. I had it all over him in overall flight speed when up and powered. Yes, my 940 cm2 wing has a slightly higher aspect ratio than his 1550 cm2.
This comparison is exactly what you would expect. No surprises. I rarely foil with anything bigger than my 940 cm2 here at home. Sometimes, just for giggles, I will take out the 1120 cm2. My 1300 cm2 languishes in the van, never used, never needed. In Florida my i76 is my only ride, so I use it there and enjoy it. Nowhere have I ever wished I had a bigger foil. Again, if I am not flying, it means I am not generating enough forward boat speed to fly. I rig a bigger sail to solve that problem.
Different strokes for different folks - and different conditions. I have 4 different front wings to choose from, but will take the 84 at least 95% of the time, simply because I like it best, and it works best in lulls. I'd rather have a bigger wing and a smaller sail than the other way round.
I have seen a few beginners that have problems to get flying. Usually, the issue was gear trim, not board speed or sail size.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
My whole point is that the i76 with its 1550 cm2 of wing area is PLENTY of lift for any body weight on planet earth. I weigh 95 kg, and I do use a i76 in Florida, but at home I never need to go over 1120 cm2 for any conditions. The monster wings are, I think, overkill for windfoiling, but definitely the cat's meow for SUP and surf.
Here's the deal. A foil--any foil--needs forward speed to fly. You get that with sail power. We all know this from 30 years of windsurfing.
If you are finding that you cannot get flight with a i76 in the light wind conditions you chose, just rig a bigger sail. You don't need a bigger foil. The i76 is plenty.
A great example. Yesterday I foiled with a friend on the Snake River in eastern WA state. We both used 6.4 sails (different cuts, yes). He weighs 170 lb, I weigh 195 lb. He was foiling with a Moses 790 1550 cm2 (about the same as the i76), I was foiling with a LP with 940 cm2. We were out in light winds of 12-15 mph. He had it over me on flight threshold, but just barely: maybe 1 mph boat speed. When we pumped to get going he came up into flight about 2 seconds before I did. We both had the same ability to keep flying into the lulls. I had it all over him in overall flight speed when up and powered. Yes, my 940 cm2 wing has a slightly higher aspect ratio than his 1550 cm2.
This comparison is exactly what you would expect. No surprises. I rarely foil with anything bigger than my 940 cm2 here at home. Sometimes, just for giggles, I will take out the 1120 cm2. My 1300 cm2 languishes in the van, never used, never needed. In Florida my i76 is my only ride, so I use it there and enjoy it. Nowhere have I ever wished I had a bigger foil. Again, if I am not flying, it means I am not generating enough forward boat speed to fly. I rig a bigger sail to solve that problem.
195 lbs is more like 89 kg not 95 kg
12-15 is considered very consistent winds here we have 5-15 on any given day and so we find the i84 and i99 will foil up and through holes much longer than the i76.
if someone had video of foiling in 5-10 with i76 I would be very impressed.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
If you could have been planing with a fin the the problem was technique, likely rigging too big.
My technique isn't perfect but I meant that if I wasn't able to foil, it was more fun to be subplaning on a fin with maybe planing or close to it in gusts than sailing with what it felt like an anchor on the board when the i76 is completely underwater. There are a lot of good sites as well that won't tolerate my 90cm mast at anything but high tide. (maybe I should get a shorter mast too...). My big weed fin I use for the 9.5 is much more pleasant to accidentally run shallow with than the foil as well.Select to expand quoteCoreAS said..segler said..
My whole point is that the i76 with its 1550 cm2 of wing area is PLENTY of lift for any body weight on planet earth. I weigh 95 kg, and I do use a i76 in Florida, but at home I never need to go over 1120 cm2 for any conditions. The monster wings are, I think, overkill for windfoiling, but definitely the cat's meow for SUP and surf.
195 lbs is more like 89 kg not 95 kg
12-15 is considered very consistent winds here we have 5-15 on any given day and so we find the i84 and i99 will foil up and through holes much longer than the i76.
if someone had video of foiling in 5-10 with i76 I would be very impressed.
I checked after my session and I was down to 193lbs on Saturday, but I was wearing a shorty 2mm wetsuit and don't know what that adds. I think I'm similar if not a little lighter than segler (unless his weight really was 95kg not 195lbs) and clearly his technique was better. I'm serious when I say though I could not feel any effect at all in the wildest pumps I tried on the i76. But, as soon as I put the i99 on I could actually feel the pumping action of the foil. I can lift well over my bodyweight with my legs so it's not a strength issue, but definitely a coordination and technique issue on my part.
If I had stayed with the i76 my TOW for foiling would trend towards zero as I just wouldn't bother, would rig my 9.5 in all low wind and just pray for windy days so I can drop rig size and blast on a fin. I was about to totally give up.
May be able to try again today after work with a 6.6 if the wind holds out, and just try to pump up now that I know about where my rear foot needs to be after playing with the 8.0 a bit overpowered.
Remember when foiling, to rig your 6.6 with minimal downhaul, and baggy outhaul for the sail to touch at least 3' of the inside boom arm.
Foiling loads are 1/3rd of windsurfing, so sails need different tuning.
Days I can almost plane with a 9.5 using a fin are easy to get flying using a 7.5 on the foil, significantly easier.
Actually I don't rig bigger than a 6.3 now and my foil is between the I76 and I84 in area. I'm 90kg and always in at least a 4mm wetsuit.
With the big foils using too much sail and a larger/heavier board is a problem. If that's how you want to rig then look at something like a race foil.
Made it happen today with the 6.6. Gusts up to just below 20.
Just had to slog it upwind as the sun set and the wind died
Also wanted to add that once I stopped fighting some of the small waves I surfed down them and got up on the foil once that way. Didn't expect that to work that easily
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..
Took the i99 out with a 6.6
10-14knots then dying to 8-10
Felt just about to go with the earlier wind
Finally felt something happening from my pumping
There were definitely times when I was just barely flying but the waves kept messing me up
Waves, swell, and current in the Gulf of Mexico for example, all have a negative affect on getting up on the foil. With a low aspect wing they will slso afgect you once you get up, while with a higher aspect wing like the AFS F800 once you get up the waves/swell will not affect you as long as you stay above them. In the Gulf I will surf the swell down wind to get enough speed to get up and then turn more upwind, in waves I will shim my stabilizer and pump the sail to get up before the next wave drags me down.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
With the big foils using too much sail and a larger/heavier board is a problem. If that's how you want to rig then look at something like a race foil.
Could you explain this please? I do have a 9.5 and I'm not opposed to using it with the foil, just couldn't get flying with it on the i76 last time I tried.
And I would remove the rear foot straps, really do not need them for most conditions so just get in the way. Rear foot should be on the centerline above the mast so that rear foot pressure will make the board lift off the water into the air.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
And I would remove the rear foot straps, really do not need them for most conditions so just get in the way. Rear foot should be on the centerline above the mast so that rear foot pressure will make the board lift off the water into the air.
I'm debating that as I still use the board for finning as well. You're correct on that as the brand mark on my rear bootie is right over the front bolt of the mast.
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..Grantmac said..
With the big foils using too much sail and a larger/heavier board is a problem. If that's how you want to rig then look at something like a race foil.
Could you explain this please? I do have a 9.5 and I'm not opposed to using it with the foil, just couldn't get flying with it on the i76 last time I tried.
The rig weight limits your ability to pump the foil. The bigger the wing and smaller the board the more this becomes a problem.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..aeroegnr said..Grantmac said..
With the big foils using too much sail and a larger/heavier board is a problem. If that's how you want to rig then look at something like a race foil.
Could you explain this please? I do have a 9.5 and I'm not opposed to using it with the foil, just couldn't get flying with it on the i76 last time I tried.
The rig weight limits your ability to pump the foil. The bigger the wing and smaller the board the more this becomes a problem.
It also limits one's ability to pump the sail. It's easier to pump a slightly smaller sail and that's more effective, at least for me, on getting off the water. Once your off, the need for really large sails seems to diminish unless you are going hard up or downwind.
Went out for another session today, found a new launch.
I99 w/ 6.6 freerace a bit baggy.
Figured out how to pump. I didn't realize it was such a small movement, but it started making sense. My movements before were WAY too big. And, if I kept my back foot kind of rigid and just pumped the sail a little, I would get up on plane. Much easier now, but still getting the feel for it.
I think pumping I learned from seeing lots of foiling videos and just trying to tame it down.
I may try the I76 again soon, just to see if I can get it going in similar conditions.
My biggest battle is that my newer launch has no wind shadow, but a lot more chop. The foil or maybe the back end of the board really catches the small waves (sometimes about a foot), and really steer me all over. At least, that's what I think is causing it. It may just be clumsiness.
