Just a shout out to the lads posting here so far. Really logical, unbiased performance reviews of all these wings. No brand trolling, just the facts from guys who have tried most of them, with reasoned pros and cons. Most informative thread I've come across in a long time.
big thanks.
Select to expand quoteHdip said..
A guy I know who can downwind and regularly stay up in the surf zone for over 5 minutes just switched to a lift 100 surf v2. I said that's a huge change, I'm surprised you'd do that. He said, I watched a video where I was on foil for over 3 minutes and I did 1 turn that was any good.
I think the tide will turn. People just have to get good enough to remember it's not all about flat water pumping. I personally am on a lift 150 surf v2 currently. I leave my ha170 in the car on all but the softest of days. I'd rather do turns on the 1 wave I'm on, than pump and get 3 waves where I'm to tired to do anything and scared to hit white water because of the wide wing span.
I've never tried the ha120 though. I really do need to ride that at some point.
I am with you Hdip. I have the 170, 150v2 and 120. 80% of the time I am on the 150 V2. I almost never use the 170 and the other 20% I use the 120. I have a love-hate relationship with the 120. If the conditions are right then it's great. It pumps better than the 150 and is faster. But the 150 is still much faster than most other foils I have used and the turns are so buttery smooth and forgiving. It also is more than capable of pumping. The 120 turn almost as hard as the 150 but is way less forgiving and you have to be completely on your game. Also I find the 150 handles much bigger surf than the 120 as the 120 ends up going too fast that you can't lay in hard turns at speed. I also wind ding and much prefer the 150v2 on the wind ding. Can take some extra pumping to get it up on foil but once you are up there is no stopping it. By far by a massive margin the best wind ding foil I have used. Also my favorite all round foil on the prone.
Select to expand quoteHdip said..
A guy I know who can downwind and regularly stay up in the surf zone for over 5 minutes just switched to a lift 100 surf v2. I said that's a huge change, I'm surprised you'd do that. He said, I watched a video where I was on foil for over 3 minutes and I did 1 turn that was any good.
I think the tide will turn. People just have to get good enough to remember it's not all about flat water pumping. I personally am on a lift 150 surf v2 currently. I leave my ha170 in the car on all but the softest of days. I'd rather do turns on the 1 wave I'm on, than pump and get 3 waves where I'm to tired to do anything and scared to hit white water because of the wide wing span.
I've never tried the ha120 though. I really do need to ride that at some point.
Yes, usually what happen is new foilers want to pump and connect waves (which is super easy with the new foils), a lots of pumping, gliding, cruising but not much action on the wave. Then, you want to surf the wave, especially for the surfers.
For me, linking 2 or 3 waves is enough, I sacrifice some pumping to have more turning ability from my foil. The feeling I want to keep, is the glide. I don't want to always pump on the wave to speed up and do a turn.
Select to expand quotefrenchfoiler said..
The feeling I want to keep, is the glide. I don't want to always pump on the wave to speed up and do a turn.
Rumors of smaller lift HA wings coming. Not sure how that will work since the ha120 seems difficult to keep up in the air at times. If I can sit in the pocket and still glide, I think it'll be awesome. I've asked for a 80cm high aspect for awhile now.
Id rather have speed and glide then learn to manage it on a wave myself. After all we arent really "wave riding" we are swell riding. No?
anyhow had my first decent session yesterday on one of these Ha wings - the 925 armie and im not sure i can go back. Insane.
like anything i suppose - it rewards good technique and the reward is substantial, but it kicks your butt if your technique falters - hence i was getting my ass handed to me a fair bit lol.
sooooo addictive..
question for you lads who are already in this HA world - are you running your masts further back or further forward in general compared to your Mid aspect foils?
I ride my 1125 all the way to the back, and my mid aspects all the way to the front.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Id rather have speed and glide then learn to manage it on a wave myself. After all we arent really "wave riding" we are swell riding. No?
anyhow had my first decent session yesterday on one of these Ha wings - the 925 armie and im not sure i can go back. Insane.
like anything i suppose - it rewards good technique and the reward is substantial, but it kicks your butt if your technique falters - hence i was getting my ass handed to me a fair bit lol.
sooooo addictive..
question for you lads who are already in this HA world - are you running your masts further back or further forward in general compared to your Mid aspect foils?
Regarding the position of the mast, forward or back in the box, well first of all it depends on the box itself on the board. Some boards have box more forward than other : for exemple Sunova have box more at the back, new armstrong more forward (at least on their wing from what I've seen).
Seems like some foils like to be ridden more at the back (gofoil for exemple), others more forward (unifoil).
In general I think smaller wing, especially ha works better far forward.
I think the best is to mesure from the tail to the mast, then you have interesting number.
For surf foil (I riding the wave, doing turns, not talking about pumping), I definetly think shorter fus helps a lot. So it is good to have option like on the Axis (the fus is not that expensive), Signature, Unifoil, Gofoil, Lift (with custom adaper), others ???
Select to expand quotefrenchfoiler said..eppo said..
Id rather have speed and glide then learn to manage it on a wave myself. After all we arent really "wave riding" we are swell riding. No?
anyhow had my first decent session yesterday on one of these Ha wings - the 925 armie and im not sure i can go back. Insane.
like anything i suppose - it rewards good technique and the reward is substantial, but it kicks your butt if your technique falters - hence i was getting my ass handed to me a fair bit lol.
sooooo addictive..
question for you lads who are already in this HA world - are you running your masts further back or further forward in general compared to your Mid aspect foils?
Regarding the position of the mast, forward or back in the box, well first of all it depends on the box itself on the board. Some boards have box more forward than other : for exemple Sunova have box more at the back, new armstrong more forward (at least on their wing from what I've seen).
Seems like some foils like to be ridden more at the back (gofoil for exemple), others more forward (unifoil).
In general I think smaller wing, especially ha works better far forward.
I think the best is to measure from the tail to the mast, then you have interesting number.
That's a great idea frenchfoiler ^^^
"I think the best is to measure from the tail to the mast, then you have interesting number".
Lot's of other factors to consider also.
Maybe a more informative number would be from leading edge of front wing to tail of board.Or from 1/3 of the chord if you want to get closer to the actual Center of pressure.
Mast and tail position change depending on fuse lenght and how much fuse sticks in front of the mast.
But the front wing is what holds us up,it's position speaks true.
Sky rama on the 925 seems to have his mast all the way back - albeit on the FG board. Just seems so counterintuitive to me with such a sensitive stall speed and the need to keep the foil from falling forward. God knows how he does it.
Select to expand quotemcrt said..
Maybe a more informative number would be from leading edge of front wing to tail of board.Or from 1/3 of the chord if you want to get closer to the actual Center of pressure.
Mast and tail position change depending on fuse lenght and how much fuse sticks in front of the mast.
But the front wing is what holds us up,it's position speaks true.
I agree, for exemple, Unifoil has the front mast close to the front wing, but Axis has the mast more far back than the front wing.
The easiest and most accurate measurement would be between 50% chord of the front to 50% tail wing and 50% chord of front wing to 50% chord on the mast. This is usually good enough for the tail and while not really accurate for the mast it will give a general idea of if it's far forwards or back compared to another foil! This will also give an approximate offset forwards or back to place the mast between foils.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Sky rama on the 925 seems to have his mast all the way back - albeit on the FG board. Just seems so counterintuitive to me with such a sensitive stall speed and the need to keep the foil from falling forward. God knows how he does it.
Hmm ,just got my 925 and changed the mast position 4 times from all the way forward which pumps the best to all the way back which was too nose down ,so I settled in the middle of the boxes which gave even foot pressure and pumps and turns great.1125 on the same board mast all the way back all day everyday.
Select to expand quotekobo said..eppo said..
Sky rama on the 925 seems to have his mast all the way back - albeit on the FG board. Just seems so counterintuitive to me with such a sensitive stall speed and the need to keep the foil from falling forward. God knows how he does it.
Hmm ,just got my 925 and changed the mast position 4 times from all the way forward which pumps the best to all the way back which was too nose down ,so I settled in the middle of the boxes which gave even foot pressure and pumps and turns great.1125 on the same board mast all the way back all day everyday.
How much you weigh again kobo and what board you are on ?
Here is an objective comment based on experience.
I have been a Moses fan for quite sometime however due to issues under SAB I demoed Axis.
So my findings;
Moses are still good but under SAB slipped a bit but seem to be catching up.
Axis have won me for windwing due to efficiency in low wind performance and glide.
For Kite foiling I am still undecided.
Moses seem to have better top end however for windwinging this is not a priority.
Select to expand quotewarwickl said..
Here is an objective comment based on experience.
I have been a Moses fan for quite sometime however due to issues under SAB I demoed Axis.
So my findings;
Moses are still good but under SAB slipped a bit but seem to be catching up.
Axis have won me for windwing due to efficiency in low wind performance and glide.
For Kite foiling I am still undecided.
Moses seem to have better top end however for windwinging this is not a priority.
If you want to do a comparison, you need to give more details, which foil exactly, those brands have lots of different gear.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..kobo said..eppo said..
Sky rama on the 925 seems to have his mast all the way back - albeit on the FG board. Just seems so counterintuitive to me with such a sensitive stall speed and the need to keep the foil from falling forward. God knows how he does it.
Hmm ,just got my 925 and changed the mast position 4 times from all the way forward which pumps the best to all the way back which was too nose down ,so I settled in the middle of the boxes which gave even foot pressure and pumps and turns great.1125 on the same board mast all the way back all day everyday.
How much you weigh again kobo and what board you are on ?
I'm 80 kg and riding a 4'8 fanatic with 7mm mast wedge
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
What's with the "mast wedge". ?
Fanatic boards have tail rocker and most boards don't. So to get the angle correct for the Armstrong foil you need to wedge the mast base until the deck is level with the mast plate or the fuse. It's level on the 4'8 with 7mm of lift at the rear.
I want to get an Armstrong board then I don't have to worry, love the fanatic though, great shape and nice and light.The Armstrong graphics really suck, but I hear the boards are good which is all that matters really.
I had a real good look at the latest 5'2 fanatic and 5'2 Armstrong board yesterday side by side. The fanatic looks like a cut out cookie maker production board compared to what's going on with the armie board. Bottom, top And sides. That being said simple can often be as good or better.
I had a 95l Fanatic which I loved but my 75 yo legs not as strong as sometime ago getting up in light wind is getting harder.
So a 105l Fanatic is arriving soon.
The thick no bevel tail helps significantly getting up as it hardly sinks plus foils without much effort.
Select to expand quotefrenchfoiler said..
I just listened to the latest Casey Podcast, and he said he tried the Armstrong and he struggled because he is so used to the Gofoil.
So like everybody is saying, it is a matter of time, but it is so hard to waste some waves when you know you could be fine on your setup you are are used to.
My guess is also that some foils/brands are totally different than others which makes harder for some people to get used to some foil, does make sense ?? I'm saying this because when I first tried the Unifoil 150 hyper which is a small ha wing (ratio and profil not as extrem as 925 or 120 I agree but still), it felt harder than 170 hyper but not that much.
Next week, I will try the Axis999, it should be very interesting.
Did you try this axis 999, any comment?
Select to expand quotePowis said..frenchfoiler said..
I just listened to the latest Casey Podcast, and he said he tried the Armstrong and he struggled because he is so used to the Gofoil.
So like everybody is saying, it is a matter of time, but it is so hard to waste some waves when you know you could be fine on your setup you are are used to.
My guess is also that some foils/brands are totally different than others which makes harder for some people to get used to some foil, does make sense ?? I'm saying this because when I first tried the Unifoil 150 hyper which is a small ha wing (ratio and profil not as extrem as 925 or 120 I agree but still), it felt harder than 170 hyper but not that much.
Next week, I will try the Axis999, it should be very interesting.
Did you try this axis 999, any comment?
I tried it only couple times.
The pumping is good, you need to get used to the flexy feel.
I found it dosent turn good, this is for me a glider only.
Select to expand quoteDommo49 said..805StandUp said..Dommo49 said..
I haven't ridden any Armstrong foils but I 100% agree with what you've said about the ART999 and the kujira 1210/980. If I could keep all the foils I test I would use the the ART range for downwinding and the kujiras for prone. There's no doubt the 999 is a special foil in so many ways and has the biggest range due to it's efficiency, glide and feels so good in both it's top and bottom end, but there's also something very special about the way the kujiras handle - the 999 may just about top the 1210 in terms of speed, glide, and pumping (only just though) but the kujira definitely wins in terms of maneuverability - they have such a lovely surfy feel, super reactive and generate speed through turns. The 980 is faster and is sooooo more lively/reactive but is way behind both of them in terms of how easy they are to pump. I would say the 999 is much closer in performance and range of use to the kujira 1210 than the 980.
Dommo--thoughts on 999 in waves (SUP Surf ideally) versus NL160 that you have? NL160 is so good but the low stall speed of 999 does sound tempting.
For me the NL160 is much looser than the 999 in its roll (rail to rail) so is much easier to whip round quick and do fast cutbacks compared to the 999. The 999 is reasonably loose (and I'm finding the tail you use makes a HUGE difference on this foil) but it turns in a very stable carve and is harder to do short, sharp turns. You can carve it hard in total control though so it's not all bad by any means.
The 999 is MUCH easier to pump back out compared to the NL160, probably because it's stall speed is so low, but also because it is so pitch stable it's easier to stay high on the mast - I find as soon as I drop to half mast height on the NL160 it's game over very quickly, but I can recover from that sort of thing super easily on the 999.
The 999 is more efficient/has better glide so can ride smaller/mushier waves easier than the NL160.
What tail wing are you using the for 999?
I had been on the 340, but just upgraded to the new Axis Progressive 375 and it seems to make all the difference for turning sharply. Was out winging yesterday in good size swell, feeling loose and could crank turns on the 999 ;)
However, I personally don't have any Armstrong or other brand comparisons. Generally, I foil in the waves on the Axis Surf Performance 760, which is pretty turny.
