I think the takeaway from this vid , is you wouldn't have much fun on a regular sup on those waves. Shows how foils can open up new riding possibilities.making mush fun.
Mahalo for the vid. Some amazing watermen looking pretty average. I've seen Titus surfing a body board at Makaha doing all kind of impossible stuff.
Foiling must be difficult, Kai Kenny makes it look too easy.
Aa hui hou
Select to expand quotegoggo said..
Foiling must be difficult, Kai Kenny makes it look too easy.
Foiling is not so difficult in itself (although the first hours will be really humbling), but rather a new sport altogether, where you must learn to master a true 3D flight. You thus become a beginner again, so if you have never foiled before, be prepared for a complete learning curve. But it does not seem harder than learning to properly SUP in waves, for instance... or just learning to surf.
People forget that Kai Lenny has been foiling since the age of nine. A lot of people living from their "wateman" image (sponsored) where I live tend to show only videos when they master the foil, and hide their beginnings.
I recently found this presentation that summarizes very well the foiling experience, and debunk some misconceptions:
Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but there have two related issues I am curious about:
Depth: If the idea of a foil is to ride smaller/mushy waves, aren't they normally in shallower water? I guess there are the fuller waves out the back - but how do you catch them?
Board size: He said you need a board that is big enough to catch the smaller/mushier/fuller wave. Don't you need a big board for that?
Also, does the foil come out "easily" for transportation?
Obviously there are answers or people wouldn't be using them, but I am curious to know where people go in Westernport where the conditions are about right.
"the idea of a foil is to ride smaller/mushy waves" - that's a misconception. Foils need speed to fly, so you need fast waves, even if they are small.
In Surf and SUP, you seek power. You are always looking for waves that deliver power to propel you. In foiling, as you have very little drag, a small power is sufficient to keep you going... as long as you are fast enough to generate lots of lift with minimal drag. And since foils take a lot of room to turn, you need lot of room to play at these speeds.
This means that small but hollow waves with a defined curl will be great for surf/SUP. And small but fast waves with long walls for foiling.
Breaking waves are actually much slowed by the bottom, so the best ones are non-breaking ones, in deep water to keep their speed. The Hawaian videos can be misleading, what looks like "small mushy waves" pack a significant amount of power there.
Foils are a dream at high tide with too much water.
Small, slow mushy waves are actually very hard for foiling, and need a good technique to generate and keep speed by pumps/turns. For these waves a good, light longSUP is still the ultimate weapon. Or a very short SUP if the takeoff zone is predictable enough.
But then, you need to be able to take off on these non-breaking waves. This is where a long board helps, unless you find a spot that peaks briefly then fades away (or an onshore wind to generate chop or whitecaps to takeoff on). Plus the foil makes the board unstable in the beginnings, a stable board helps. With technique you will be able to pump your way on takeoff, and then reduce the board size, which will be easier to pump, ...
The limit is of course too long a board is harder to control in flight (plus is heavier), so there is a compromize to find. Basically a board 10% bigger than your normal SUP works well.
Select to expand quotecolas said..
"the idea of a foil is to ride smaller/mushy waves" - that's a misconception. Foils need speed to fly, so you need fast waves, even if they are small.
In Surf and SUP, you seek power. You are always looking for waves that deliver power to propel you. In foiling, as you have very little drag, a small power is sufficient to keep you going... as long as you are fast enough to generate lots of lift with minimal drag. And since foils take a lot of room to turn, you need lot of room to play at these speeds.
This means that small but hollow waves with a defined curl will be great for surf/SUP. And small but fast waves with long walls for foiling.
Breaking waves are actually much slowed by the bottom, so the best ones are non-breaking ones, in deep water to keep their speed. The Hawaian videos can be misleading, what looks like "small mushy waves" pack a significant amount of power there.
Foils are a dream at high tide with too much water.
Small, slow mushy waves are actually very hard for foiling, and need a good technique to generate and keep speed by pumps/turns. For these waves a good, light longSUP is still the ultimate weapon. Or a very short SUP if the takeoff zone is predictable enough.
But then, you need to be able to take off on these non-breaking waves. This is where a long board helps, unless you find a spot that peaks briefly then fades away (or an onshore wind to generate chop or whitecaps to takeoff on). Plus the foil makes the board unstable in the beginnings, a stable board helps. With technique you will be able to pump your way on takeoff, and then reduce the board size, which will be easier to pump, ...
The limit is of course too long a board is harder to control in flight (plus is heavier), so there is a compromize to find. Basically a board 10% bigger than your normal SUP works well.
Thanks for the explanation!
There are places around here with bommies (isolated reefs) where the waves have power but they only break or peak temporarily and then go full again in deeper water. Maybe a foil/sup could catch it on the trailing side of the bommie (or over it if it is deep enough) and then continue to ride the wave. And I guess it would work if there are sand banks with deeper water on the beach side.
Sounds like you should play behind a boat before trying to surf with a foil - not sure that's an option...
Yes the breaks you describe will be perfect.
Towed sessions behind a boat are in no way mandatory, but will speed the learning phase.
Especially in the first steps to acquire the lateral stability.
Then, for the for/aft and controlling the height, the danger is to rely too much on the rope. You must try to glide as much as possible without a rope (letting it go slack or surf the wake), otherwise you will get bad habits. I see friends that now have to unlearn the longitudinal balance they develop in towed sessions.
Select to expand quotecantSUPenough said..
Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but there have two related issues I am curious about:
Depth: If the idea of a foil is to ride smaller/mushy waves, aren't they normally in shallower water? I guess there are the fuller waves out the back - but how do you catch them?
Board size: He said you need a board that is big enough to catch the smaller/mushier/fuller wave. Don't you need a big board for that?
Also, does the foil come out "easily" for transportation?
Obviously there are answers or people wouldn't be using them, but I am curious to know where people go in Westernport where the conditions are about right.
I've been sup foiling for the past 2 months in Westernport and find it's such a fun extension to my regular sup surfing.
I did the pre-requisite 2 hrs towing behind my brother's jet ski at Phillip Island to get a feel for the foil, then it was into the waves.
I've been surfing at Crunchies and Second Reef in 1 - 3 foot when the tide is suitable. I'm using a Naish Malolo foil and I trimmed my mast from 68cm to 55cm, which is ample for what I'm riding.
I converted my old Naish Hokua 8'10" LE which actually works really well, as it still paddles reasonably fast to gain an early entry into a wave/bump. I've got a Naish Raptor 7'0" x 28" almost ready to go and that's going to change the riding dynamic again.
The Naish Malolo foil is easy to fit and remove and also assemble, so there's no need to drive around with something a metre high.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Warrick!
I would love to give it a go - seems like a fun thing to try. Something different. Impressed that you can do it at crunchies!
What bout getting in & out ? If u get slammed by something does it wanna rip your leg off ?
Select to expand quoteMickChard said..
What bout getting in & out ? If u get slammed by something does it wanna rip your leg off ?
You getting in and out the water?
Getting out through shorebreaks is definitively to be avoided, a great risk to break the foil.
Colas said:- "the idea of a foil is to ride smaller/mushy waves" - that's a misconception. Foils need speed to fly, so you need fast waves, even if they are small.
Can't agree with you there Colas that first video show the foils flying really well in 2ft mushy slow waves.
Colas said:- Getting out through shore breaks is definitely to be avoided, a great risk to break the foil.
Agree 100% on that , where I live that is a daily battle.
Re small board v longer wider boards:-
First up you need a board you can stand on comfortably and support the weight of the foil , some aluminum foils weigh up to 8kgs where as the GoFoil is just under 3kg plus it floats, so it's actually positively buoyant (big plus doesn't sink the board) The foil itself acts as a keel which helps with stability but feels strange at first. After the first 2 strokes you can feel the foil push you and that helps to catch waves. A custom foil board is a huge plus but if that's not in your budget try and find a shorter fatter board to learn on ,because once you are up all that excess board just adds to swing weight making it harder to stay up on the foil. My first board was a custom DC 8-0 x 30 -135 litre and now I'm on a DC 7-6 x 28 -118 litre and its so much easier to fly but again it took time to get to this size. The new board and GoFoil is only 9.5kg it feels amazing under foot ,light weight is a huge plus. My pick to convert a board are the Vanguard/door style boards. Starboard Hypernut , JP Slate , Naish Raptor , Fanatic Stubby , Deep Minion , Sunova Speed & Gong Mob Sp Pro's all look good. I would love to get my hands on one of Dave Kalamas custom Sup foil boards they look sick.
What foil do I recommend:-
I've tested a lot of foils (sorry Colas haven't tried a Gong) but hands down the Kai GoFoil ,by far the best. Disclaimer I paid retail for my Gofoil and have nothing to do with them. North have a new one coming out which is pretty good and well priced but haven't ridden production model and so do Slingshot & Lift.
Sandsy1 said: - Boring as Bat Sh!t ....
Compared to what ,here is a 10-6 Sup video same break (Queens) & similar size wave , scratching the whole way and look how short the wave is. The guys on foils just kept going. The foil just gives you way more hours on the water and length of the ride.
It doesn't replace your Sup surfing just adds to it.
"that first video show the foils flying really well in 2ft mushy slow waves"... in Hawai... These definitely are not your average "small and mushy" waves, you could SUP them and have fun (with a proper board).
The common misconception is to think that the foil allows to SUP/surf waves too small to be enjoyable with regular SUPing. Such as 3 seconds mediterrenean chop as below (with Romain Jean in Sete): it can be done but it isn't the solution to have fun. But it is a great training, both technically and physically, beats running.But note that the "wave" below is non breaking: when breaking such a chop would stop to an halt, plus you will hit the bottom with the foil
"It doesn't replace your Sup surfing just adds to it." Exactly!
Select to expand quoteMickChard said..
If u get slammed by something does it wanna rip your leg off ?
The pull on the leash is not much bigger than a regular SUP, but you must be wary of the board: from time to time, the board starts to foil when coming back to you and is then fast and unpredictable. Happily, foiling is hard, even for the board alone, so it quickly crash on the side, I never had it reach me.
Plus keep it well away from you and others when bailing in front of broken waves.
I would add another reason to choose a stable SUP board to put a foil under it: as you are going to use it a lot in onshore or choppy conditions, a stable board is important if you plan to have long sessions. Plus getting back to the starting position is a loooong paddle :-)
Colas said:- "That first video shows the foils flying really well in 2ft mushy slow waves"... in Hawai... These definitely are not your average "small and mushy" waves, you could SUP them and have fun (with a proper board).
Not sure of your point here that last video in my post showed surfing the same wave on a proper Sup. 2ft mush is 2ft mush isn't it ?
Not sure if you can play this link but it's Dave Kalama yesterday in Hood River doing a downwinder on his 7-6 Sup foil.....It puts the theory to bed you need a fast breaking wave to foil.
www.facebook.com/Gofoils/videos/647844985417785/?hc_ref=ARTTiGfezDijn_Nz4uIBPPllptu9Yr679An1UBT3skRl77oOxVj5-R1wqWRsdsMSFCw&pnref=story
Select to expand quotecolas said..
"that first video show the foils flying really well in 2ft mushy slow waves"... in Hawai... These definitely are not your average "small and mushy" waves, you could SUP them and have fun (with a proper board).
The common misconception is to think that the foil allows to SUP/surf waves too small to be enjoyable with regular SUPing. Such as 3 seconds mediterrenean chop as below (with Romain Jean in Sete): it can be done but it isn't the solution to have fun. But it is a great training, both technically and physically, beats running.But note that the "wave" below is non breaking: when breaking such a chop would stop to an halt, plus you will hit the bottom with the foil
"It doesn't replace your Sup surfing just adds to it." Exactly!
Isn't that what beer is for? That does not look fun. Each to his own but I would rather mtb, ride my motorcycle or kite on the small or windy days.
Select to expand quotePiros said..
Sandsy1 said: - Boring as Bat Sh!t ....
Compared to what ,here is a 10-6 Sup video same break (Queens)
Or you could ride it like Atilla
The sport is still new Hilly it will get more spectacular but get your point. but a few heli's won't make me spill my beer.
Select to expand quotePiros said..
...
What foil do I recommend:-
I've tested a lot of foils (sorry Colas haven't tried a Gong) but hands down the Kai GoFoil ,by far the best. Disclaimer I paid retail for my Gofoil and have nothing to do with them. North have a new one coming out which is pretty good and well priced but haven't ridden production model and so do Slingshot & Lift.
Could you tell us which foils you've tested?
Did you try foils with thinner wing profiles than the GoFoil?
Alex
Select to expand quotePiros said..
Not sure of your point here that last video in my post showed surfing the same wave on a proper Sup. 2ft mush is 2ft mush isn't it ?
You misread me. On the opposite I say that the wave should not break, to avoid being slowed (your video of Alex A shows him with waves not slowed by the proximity to the bottom). My point is that foil works with waves providing a weak force, and that does not not equals to generic "small waves" as non-foilers envision.
My goal was avoiding people buying a foil for "small waves" and get disgusted because the foil is not the weapon for the kind of small waves they envisioned. And now we see them here reselling the gear.
2 ft mush is not 2ft mush. period is the key, as period is related to the speed of the wave.
Here on 2ft mush 2 days ago: with a proper board (6'10" fish, twin fins) you can have ultra fun where a foil would not shine, as with a small-wave SUP you can leverage the foam to get the needed power, even if the wave is slow (7s period), and even slowed more when it breaks. I was alone on this peak as it was too weak for prone surfers. And a 10'6" SUP would have slogged as too long to be able to get speed off the foam.
Here are conditions that are quite fun with a foil: weak but fast.
Select to expand quotecolas said..
Here are conditions that are quite fun with a foil: weak but fast.
you get immune to chop once airborne + you get all the fun of chasing the underwater wave, a bit like with downwinding.
I think this is more fun in onshore mush
Select to expand quotehilly said..
Isn't that what beer is for? That does not look fun.
Some time ago, we were all reading "SUP looks boring", then "Downwinding does not look like fun", ...
Another one where you can see good-for-foiling weak waves, but not slowed down, since non-breaking. Even at the start, only the top breaks, meaning the wave is not too slowed down. Plus, judging from the distance between waves, the period is not too small.
Select to expand quotecolas said..
Another one where you can see good-for-foiling weak waves, but not slowed down, since non-breaking. Even at the start, only the top breaks, meaning the wave is not too slowed down. Plus, judging from the distance between waves, the period is not too small.
I sort of get it if you have waves like that. We do not in WA near Perth. Just crap shore dumps really or waves that break close to a reef. No long rides. Horses for courses, if you have the conditions then it could be fun. Just not for me.
It's not what it looks like, it's what it feels like! And it feels like flying, of course it looks nothing like surfing as you are not using rails to carve turns ect.
