Select to expand quotekobo said..Pacoo said..kobo said..
I found I really needed the right tail to get the 1675 to work (ie 202) , anything less didn't push down enough on the tail and the 1675 kept nosediving and hard to turn etc. The old story .it's amazing what a tail can do !
According to my understanding the pump 202 has a lot of lift. Can you elaborate how the same tail will also counteract nosedive?
Im not saying it is not the case, but I would like to understand.
best
One of the main jobs of the tail is to keep the underwater airplane or foil rig flying in a nice level flight.
If the tail doesn't push down enough it allows the whole rig to point down which is felt as a nosedive.
This is mainly due to drag created from the front foil, and because the 1675 has a lot of camber and surface area it creates a lot of drag which requires more push down from the tail to maintain level flight.
I tried the 232,180, KD maui and crisp333 tails and non of them pushed down enough to maintain level flight. The 202 tail has a pronounced camber which does. Conversely if the tail pushes down too much it's felt as rising front foot pressure and then breaching. I hope that explains it, industry use terms like forward pitching moment as the drag created by the front foil making it want to swing back , and there are other factors like the front foil AOA and COG of board and rider on foil mast placement etc but basically that's what the tail does.
BTW when they talk about a tail like the 202 creating a lot of lift , it means that it pushes down harder and makes the front foil point up more and produce more lift.
The lift of the tail acts in the opposite direction to the lift of the front foil , the tail pushes down and front foil pushes up.
Thanks for the clarification, we are on the same page. The use of tail pushing down got me confused.
I planning to use the 202 with the HA series, expecting to improve the low end and lift at low speed. Will let you know how it goes, as for some combinations it seems that the dynamics change a lot depending on the speed.
Select to expand quotekobo said..Pacoo said..kobo said..
I found I really needed the right tail to get the 1675 to work (ie 202) , anything less didn't push down enough on the tail and the 1675 kept nosediving and hard to turn etc. The old story .it's amazing what a tail can do !
According to my understanding the pump 202 has a lot of lift. Can you elaborate how the same tail will also counteract nosedive?
Im not saying it is not the case, but I would like to understand.
best
One of the main jobs of the tail is to keep the underwater airplane or foil rig flying in a nice level flight.
If the tail doesn't push down enough it allows the whole rig to point down which is felt as a nosedive.
This is mainly due to drag created from the front foil, and because the 1675 has a lot of camber and surface area it creates a lot of drag which requires more push down from the tail to maintain level flight.
I tried the 232,180, KD maui and crisp333 tails and non of them pushed down enough to maintain level flight. The 202 tail has a pronounced camber which does. Conversely if the tail pushes down too much it's felt as rising front foot pressure and then breaching. I hope that explains it, industry use terms like forward pitching moment as the drag created by the front foil making it want to swing back , and there are other factors like the front foil AOA and COG of board and rider on foil mast placement etc but basically that's what the tail does.
BTW when they talk about a tail like the 202 creating a lot of lift , it means that it pushes down harder and makes the front foil point up more and produce more lift.
The lift of the tail acts in the opposite direction to the lift of the front foil , the tail pushes down and front foil pushes up.
Thanks for the clarification, we are on the same page. The use of tail pushing down got me confused.
I planning to use the 202 with the HA series, expecting to improve the low end and lift at low speed. Will let you know how it goes, as for some combinations it seems that the dynamics change a lot depending on the speed.
Yeah, very curious how the Pump 202 goes for you on other foils. I've heard it described as "actually pretty surf-ey", so might be a really fun combination of pump and surfability. Just imagine that it'll slow whatever foil you're riding down somewhat, but that could be fine in gutless surf?
Select to expand quoteWindoc said..
Yeah, very curious how the Pump 202 goes for you on other foils. I've heard it described as "actually pretty surf-ey", so might be a really fun combination of pump and surfability. Just imagine that it'll slow whatever foil you're riding down somewhat, but that could be fine in gutless surf?
my son Antman used the 202 with the 1125 (armstrong 107L DW board) yesterday on a half cut run with pretty average wind and even more average runners.
he loved it. said exactly that - felt like a big prone setup. he had to pump and link for a good kilometre out to get decent runners.
because of his cold he had to stop a few times to cough up a lung and he never had issues paddling back up.
He was really suprised how carvy it was - even with the longer span 1125 which he isn't used to using.
Early days - but there is potential in this 202 with the HA wings.
Select to expand quoteWindoc said..
Great to know, Eppo! Thanks.
he had another go yesterday on a short DW paddle . in wind even the wingers were coming off the foil - so light.
Had no issue pumping up the 1125 with the 202
tail - at one stage just before he came in about 300m off the point he paddled up not even using a swell chip.
Select to expand quoteWindoc said..
Great to know, Eppo! Thanks.
he had another go yesterday on a short DW paddle . in wind even the wingers were coming off the foil - so light.
Had no issue pumping up the 1125 with the 202
tail - at one stage just before he came in about 300m off the point he paddled up not even using a swell chip.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..Windoc said..
Great to know, Eppo! Thanks.
he had another go yesterday on a short DW paddle . in wind even the wingers were coming off the foil - so light.
Had no issue pumping up the 1125 with the 202
tail - at one stage just before he came in about 300m off the point he paddled up not even using a swell chip.
I tried the HA1125 /202 combo today. Although the change was not drastic, is seems to improve pumping and lift at low speed and it makes the HA1125 a bit slower.
It soon to say but I don't feel big changes.
202 pump tail feels ridiculously slow in combination with the 1675. Have you tried shimming the 202? My gut feel is that the 220 glide would be a better for a touch more speed
Select to expand quoteFoilmate said..
202 pump tail feels ridiculously slow in combination with the 1675. Have you tried shimming the 202? My gut feel is that the 220 glide would be a better for a touch more speed
I can do 26 km/h in the APF 1675/ pump 202 combo, which is good enough for downwinds in my area. I like the front-foot pressure that the 202 creates. The DW930 is coming for bigger days, and I'm still planning to use it with the 202
I've been using the 1675/202 with the 50 fuse lately and loving it , makes it turn so easy and get up quicker when paddling onto lumps. Awesome DW setup.
Select to expand quotekobo said..
I've been using the 1675/202 with the 50 fuse lately and loving it, makes it turn so easy and get up quicker when paddling onto lumps. Awesome DW setup.
50 fuse is great for larger foils. I've moved to a 60 fuse to slow the pumping cadence down DWing.But I sit around 15-17km/h max with this set up.Tried red shim yesterday, helped but not significant gains in speed to overcome the giant / thick front wing
Select to expand quoteFoilmate said..kobo said..
I've been using the 1675/202 with the 50 fuse lately and loving it, makes it turn so easy and get up quicker when paddling onto lumps. Awesome DW setup.
50 fuse is great for larger foils. I've moved to a 60 fuse to slow the pumping cadence down DWing.But I sit around 15-17km/h max with this set up.Tried red shim yesterday, helped but not significant gains in speed to overcome the giant / thick front wing
yeh right 50 fuse. didn't think of that. i'm having a prick of a time flat water pumping up the 1675 with 202 tail. i'm not getting anywhere.
Aiden told me yesterday to bring it back to "4" on the 7'2 armie DW board. i've been running it at "9".
bahahabbabahqhq
Select to expand quoteeppo said..Foilmate said..kobo said..
I've been using the 1675/202 with the 50 fuse lately and loving it, makes it turn so easy and get up quicker when paddling onto lumps. Awesome DW setup.
50 fuse is great for larger foils. I've moved to a 60 fuse to slow the pumping cadence down DWing.But I sit around 15-17km/h max with this set up.Tried red shim yesterday, helped but not significant gains in speed to overcome the giant / thick front wing
yeh right 50 fuse. didn't think of that. i'm having a prick of a time flat water pumping up the 1675 with 202 tail. i'm not getting anywhere.
Aiden told me yesterday to bring it back to "4" on the 7'2 armie DW board. i've been running it at "9".
bahahabbabahqhq
50 fuse makes a big difference to turning ability, plus less mast flex. It will be my end game.. In the meantime, I went out yesterday with the 50 fuse and was exhausted from pumping. Haven't tried the 70 fuse with it. Would turn horribly but cadence would slow down immensely in the learning phase.Do you find that the board is popping up but not taking off? I'm on a different board but mates are on 7-9 setting on their Armstrong DW boards. I've ridden theirs on setting 7 (+glide 220) and felt like the foil was going to breach the whole time. Whole lot of front foot pressure.
Select to expand quoteFoilmate said..eppo said..Foilmate said..kobo said..
I've been using the 1675/202 with the 50 fuse lately and loving it, makes it turn so easy and get up quicker when paddling onto lumps. Awesome DW setup.
50 fuse is great for larger foils. I've moved to a 60 fuse to slow the pumping cadence down DWing.But I sit around 15-17km/h max with this set up.Tried red shim yesterday, helped but not significant gains in speed to overcome the giant / thick front wing
yeh right 50 fuse. didn't think of that. i'm having a prick of a time flat water pumping up the 1675 with 202 tail. i'm not getting anywhere.
Aiden told me yesterday to bring it back to "4" on the 7'2 armie DW board. i've been running it at "9".
bahahabbabahqhq
50 fuse makes a big difference to turning ability, plus less mast flex. It will be my end game.. In the meantime, I went out yesterday with the 50 fuse and was exhausted from pumping. Haven't tried the 70 fuse with it. Would turn horribly but cadence would slow down immensely in the learning phase.Do you find that the board is popping up but not taking off? I'm on a different board but mates are on 7-9 setting on their Armstrong DW boards. I've ridden theirs on setting 7 (+glide 220) and felt like the foil was going to breach the whole time. Whole lot of front foot pressure.
Pumping with the 50 fuse is better in some ways and not in others.It's easier to get up high on the mast quickly and into the sweet zone, and then I bring my feet closer together and try to pump the board flat using both legs the same, but the cadence is a little higher and the projection is slightly less , but for me I find the overall benefits of the 50 out way the disadvantages .
I've had a couple of surfs on my DW SUP with the Pump 202. 1st was with the 1225 and no tail shim but came away a bit underwhelmed as it felt draggy and slow. I normally red shim most of my tails but wanted to start with no shimming. Today I surfed the 1475 (a bit over-gunned at times in waist to head high waves) with a red shim. Experience was very different! Felt fairly quick and it made a really nice, secure pivoty top turn. Very surfy with a good platform to push against.
I'll try some flat water paddle ups with the 1675/202 tomorrow.
On the pumping side of things to connect waves, I find that the 1475 allows for easier 2 for ones or more and I expected the 202 to make this even easier, but it was a marginal difference to the 235/205 tails. Tons of outflowing current from the river mouth I surf may have contributed to this feeling heavily.
Has anyone tried adding a baseplate shim to help with flat water pop ups? I recently picked up the Armstrong shim, but have yet to give it a go with the 1675. I'm hoping it helps get over that immense front foot pressure on take off that I've felt winging.
Select to expand quoteMidAtlanticFoil said..
Has anyone tried adding a baseplate shim to help with flat water pop ups? I recently picked up the Armstrong shim, but have yet to give it a go with the 1675. I'm hoping it helps get over that immense front foot pressure on take off that I've felt winging.
I have used it to increase early lift on the 1675 for paddle ups not to reduce it...but maybe reducing it will allow you to build more board speed paddling and reduce the chances of too early lift off and stalling ??
Select to expand quotekobo said..MidAtlanticFoil said..
Has anyone tried adding a baseplate shim to help with flat water pop ups? I recently picked up the Armstrong shim, but have yet to give it a go with the 1675. I'm hoping it helps get over that immense front foot pressure on take off that I've felt winging.
I have used it to increase early lift on the 1675 for paddle ups not to reduce it...but maybe reducing it will allow you to build more board speed paddling and reduce the chances of too early lift off and stalling ??
Select to expand quoteMidAtlanticFoil said..kobo said..MidAtlanticFoil said..
Has anyone tried adding a baseplate shim to help with flat water pop ups? I recently picked up the Armstrong shim, but have yet to give it a go with the 1675. I'm hoping it helps get over that immense front foot pressure on take off that I've felt winging.
I have used it to increase early lift on the 1675 for paddle ups not to reduce it...but maybe reducing it will allow you to build more board speed paddling and reduce the chances of too early lift off and stalling ??
?si=IUl4Uf8qTKh3G0Um
12:28 mark shows the shim set thick side at the rear of the mast.
Yeh same as me for flat water ,but I take it out for DW
Select to expand quoteFoilmate said..
202 pump tail feels ridiculously slow in combination with the 1675. Have you tried shimming the 202? My gut feel is that the 220 glide would be a better for a touch more speed
I tried shimming the 202 (blue shim), and top speed went down. It has reduced front foot preassure at top speed, but my downwind speed are down around 3 to 5 km/h.
I'm not sure if shimming will increase speed in these tails with so much camber.
Can anybody recommend between the speed180 and dart140 to pair with the APF1675?
Select to expand quotePacoo said..Foilmate said..
202 pump tail feels ridiculously slow in combination with the 1675. Have you tried shimming the 202? My gut feel is that the 220 glide would be a better for a touch more speed
I tried shimming the 202 (blue shim), and top speed went down. It has reduced front foot preassure at top speed, but my downwind speed are down around 3 to 5 km/h.
I'm not sure if shimming will increase speed in these tails with so much camber.
Can anybody recommend between the speed180 and dart140 to pair with the APF1675?
I know crew that ride Army DW boards can run the 180/140 tails because the tracks are forward enough to compensate for reduced lift. I've been using the 220 tail on my Sunova board with 1675 and that tail has more lift and speed than the 202 but slightly wider so it's a little harder to turn
Select to expand quotekobo said..Pacoo said..Foilmate said..
202 pump tail feels ridiculously slow in combination with the 1675. Have you tried shimming the 202? My gut feel is that the 220 glide would be a better for a touch more speed
I tried shimming the 202 (blue shim), and top speed went down. It has reduced front foot preassure at top speed, but my downwind speed are down around 3 to 5 km/h.
I'm not sure if shimming will increase speed in these tails with so much camber.
Can anybody recommend between the speed180 and dart140 to pair with the APF1675?
I know crew that ride Army DW boards can run the 180/140 tails because the tracks are forward enough to compensate for reduced lift. I've been using the 220 tail on my Sunova board with 1675 and that tail has more lift and speed than the 202 but slightly wider so it's a little harder to turn
Thanks Kobo, how much do you weight?. I'm using a KT so tracks are not an issue.
I'm incline for the 180, as I don't want to loose turning.
I wish these manufacturers start to provide objective numbers, top speed, and recommend tail, track position etc,
Every new foil is a battle.
Select to expand quotePacoo said..Every new foil is a battle.
Welcome to the world of Armstrong foiling. I always struggled with the endless tinkering with their foils to get them to work for you. It is good you can play but a bit of a head #%*? in the end. I found I went around in circles sometimes. Prefer plug and play 
Select to expand quotePacoo said..kobo said..Pacoo said..Foilmate said..
202 pump tail feels ridiculously slow in combination with the 1675. Have you tried shimming the 202? My gut feel is that the 220 glide would be a better for a touch more speed
I tried shimming the 202 (blue shim), and top speed went down. It has reduced front foot preassure at top speed, but my downwind speed are down around 3 to 5 km/h.
I'm not sure if shimming will increase speed in these tails with so much camber.
Can anybody recommend between the speed180 and dart140 to pair with the APF1675?
I know crew that ride Army DW boards can run the 180/140 tails because the tracks are forward enough to compensate for reduced lift. I've been using the 220 tail on my Sunova board with 1675 and that tail has more lift and speed than the 202 but slightly wider so it's a little harder to turn
Thanks Kobo, how much do you weight?. I'm using a KT so tracks are not an issue.
I'm incline for the 180, as I don't want to loose turning.
I wish these manufacturers start to provide objective numbers, top speed, and recommend tail, track position etc,
Every new foil is a battle.
I'm 80 kg , and I guess the 1675 is a bit of a specialty foil that was designed primarily as a dock start wing, but it can also be used to learn DW but then you need to tinker with it to tune it for that purpose. If you want plug and play.. the new HAs are the way to go. I bought an 880 put it on a standard 60 fuse on with a 140 tail no shim and away she went and I haven't changed a thing.
Select to expand quotekobo said..
I'm 80 kg , and I guess the 1675 is a bit of a specialty foil that was designed primarily as a dock start wing, but it can also be used to learn DW but then you need to tinker with it to tune it for that purpose. If you want plug and play.. the new HAs are the way to go. I bought an 880 put it on a standard 60 fuse on with a 140 tail no shim and away she went and I haven't changed a thing.
HA1080 plug and play with Dart as well. No shim. Haven't felt the need to try my other tails yet, which seems weird since the Dart is a wee thing and I'm heavier, but I'll start experimenting a bit once I'm wanting some different feelings. Wondering if the new HA foils load the tail a fair bit less than other foils in the range? I do like the ability to tune to taste, but great when a foil feels tuned out of the box. My Omen 850 feels this way, and I was surprised to not need to faff a bit with it.
Select to expand quotekobo said..Pacoo said..kobo said..Pacoo said..Foilmate said..
202 pump tail feels ridiculously slow in combination with the 1675. Have you tried shimming the 202? My gut feel is that the 220 glide would be a better for a touch more speed
I tried shimming the 202 (blue shim), and top speed went down. It has reduced front foot preassure at top speed, but my downwind speed are down around 3 to 5 km/h.
I'm not sure if shimming will increase speed in these tails with so much camber.
Can anybody recommend between the speed180 and dart140 to pair with the APF1675?
I know crew that ride Army DW boards can run the 180/140 tails because the tracks are forward enough to compensate for reduced lift. I've been using the 220 tail on my Sunova board with 1675 and that tail has more lift and speed than the 202 but slightly wider so it's a little harder to turn
Thanks Kobo, how much do you weight?. I'm using a KT so tracks are not an issue.
I'm incline for the 180, as I don't want to loose turning.
I wish these manufacturers start to provide objective numbers, top speed, and recommend tail, track position etc,
Every new foil is a battle.
I'm 80 kg , and I guess the 1675 is a bit of a specialty foil that was designed primarily as a dock start wing, but it can also be used to learn DW but then you need to tinker with it to tune it for that purpose. If you want plug and play.. the new HAs are the way to go. I bought an 880 put it on a standard 60 fuse on with a 140 tail no shim and away she went and I haven't changed a thing.
Yeh agreed. the new Has are the most plug and play of all the armie wings so far. Some fine tuning with shims if you want to really tune to suite your needs but even that isn't totally necessary. I'm tending to use a blue on the dart and a red on the 180 but again you can get away with no shims as well.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..kobo said..Pacoo said..kobo said..Pacoo said..Foilmate said..
202 pump tail feels ridiculously slow in combination with the 1675. Have you tried shimming the 202? My gut feel is that the 220 glide would be a better for a touch more speed
I tried shimming the 202 (blue shim), and top speed went down. It has reduced front foot preassure at top speed, but my downwind speed are down around 3 to 5 km/h.
I'm not sure if shimming will increase speed in these tails with so much camber.
Can anybody recommend between the speed180 and dart140 to pair with the APF1675?
I know crew that ride Army DW boards can run the 180/140 tails because the tracks are forward enough to compensate for reduced lift. I've been using the 220 tail on my Sunova board with 1675 and that tail has more lift and speed than the 202 but slightly wider so it's a little harder to turn
Thanks Kobo, how much do you weight?. I'm using a KT so tracks are not an issue.
I'm incline for the 180, as I don't want to loose turning.
I wish these manufacturers start to provide objective numbers, top speed, and recommend tail, track position etc,
Every new foil is a battle.
I'm 80 kg , and I guess the 1675 is a bit of a specialty foil that was designed primarily as a dock start wing, but it can also be used to learn DW but then you need to tinker with it to tune it for that purpose. If you want plug and play.. the new HAs are the way to go. I bought an 880 put it on a standard 60 fuse on with a 140 tail no shim and away she went and I haven't changed a thing.
Yeh agreed. the new Has are the most plug and play of all the armie wings so far. Some fine tuning with shims if you want to really tune to suite your needs but even that isn't totally necessary. I'm tending to use a blue on the dart and a red on the 180 but again you can get away with no shims as well.
Somebody must do a good guidance for wing, tail, shim combinations. Plus mast position.
Today I found that the new DWP930 goes 1,5 cm back from the APF1675 (wich goes 2cm back from old HA).
Good guidance will safe time an money.
I surfed the 1675 with the Dart, blue shim yesterday in 2-3' surf with making connections the priority. That foil gets OP'd pretty fast and you can feel it trying to put on the brakes so it can ride in its preferred speed range, which is very low since it's a PUMP foil. We have lots of river current at our local so it felt very sensitive and nervous on foil. I almost find it has a mind of its own if it starts to bank and you're not totally centered over the mast, almost as if I was on the v1 mast (I was on the 795 Performance mast). But man does it pump! Kicking out, I had to let the foil slow way down before pumping. I was able to grave dig so many times back up to speed after touching down briefly and make a connection; it's really fun for this aspect. Then I put on the HA1080 and it felt like the hand brake was off and all sketchiness disappeared with not a ton of low end lost. 2-3' waves felt perfect on the 1080/Dart/blue shim and pumped and turned so well too. I'll save the 1675 for 1' micro waves next time!
Select to expand quoteWindoc said..
I surfed the 1675 with the Dart, blue shim yesterday in 2-3' surf with making connections the priority. That foil gets OP'd pretty fast and you can feel it trying to put on the brakes so it can ride in its preferred speed range, which is very low since it's a PUMP foil. We have lots of river current at our local so it felt very sensitive and nervous on foil. I almost find it has a mind of its own if it starts to bank and you're not totally centered over the mast, almost as if I was on the v1 mast (I was on the 795 Performance mast). But man does it pump! Kicking out, I had to let the foil slow way down before pumping. I was able to grave dig so many times back up to speed after touching down briefly and make a connection; it's really fun for this aspect. Then I put on the HA1080 and it felt like the hand brake was off and all sketchiness disappeared with not a ton of low end lost. 2-3' waves felt perfect on the 1080/Dart/blue shim and pumped and turned so well too. I'll save the 1675 for 1' micro waves next time!
It is very obvious that the 1675 is a pump foil and not a surf foil.
I hope Armstrong will come out with HA1280 and even a HA1380 asap to ride micro waves.
