Select to expand quoteEven on our trial the alternator revealed its intermittent charging and a sheave blew under load.
What happened then? Accusations of poor-seamanship? Who paid?
(I have only ever crewed various sloops, racing and deliveries, and have observed many grown men yell at other men when at sea.)
And for the statement below... I still know little about yachts, but I have a mental picture of the lay-up of the vessel twisting and detaching from the framework?Select to expand quoteI sailed on one boat where the owner had drilled an extra drain hole for the anchor locker - only noticeable on starboard tack, but then REALLY obvious!
The first thing - if l was selling my boat - would be an invitation to a prospective buyer to sail the yacht!
No deposit, nothing, just a few hours on the water to make him like the boat, raise his interest in it a bit more. No strings attached, no guilt involved.
If he was interested in the first place like l was, taking him for a sail would hook him like l was hooked and still l am.
On the top of this, a sea trial would show what kind of a sailor the buyer is. No way I would sell my boat to a moron.
Select to expand quotesirgallivant said..
The first thing - if l was selling my boat - would be an invitation to a prospective buyer to sail the yacht!
No deposit, nothing, just a few hours on the water to make him like the boat, raise his interest in it a bit more. No strings attached, no guilt involved.
If he was interested in the first place like l was, taking him for a sail would hook him like l was hooked and still l am.
On the top of this, a sea trial would show what kind of a sailor the buyer is. No way I would sell my boat to a moron.
If i had a boat for sale i would take any ones money, moron or not, as down here offers are few and far between
Good idea though about taking the prospective buyer for a test sail because if you pick the weather it is a good selling tool
Regards Don
Select to expand quoteUncleBob said..
Hey I met a guy once who solved the problem of those only wanting to go for a sail, he charged them $100.00 for the sail for half a day with the understanding that should a sale be made the money would come off the bill. Claims that it worked well, eliminated all the tyre kickers. 
Brilliant idea Bob! I remember one guy who wanted to sea trial one of our boats showing up with wife, brother and law an eski and two kids. It needs to be $100 per person for a sail
Hey Wollemi, I was just using those minor examples as things that I didn't spot in my pre-trial survey. Obviously in my case, they were so minor that they made no difference to the purchase - but did inform my maintenance schedule.
However, if a sheave blows as soon as any load is applied, it's clearly stuffed!
The additional hole I described was tiny and impossible to spot - amazing how much water came in when it was a foot underwater. The owner thought he was drilling straight into the anchor locker - sadly there was a gap allowing water both from outside and the locker to enter the bilge. It wasn't structural.
I agree with using the test sail as a sales aid - I have thought of doing an "open day" where you have the boat easily accessible on a jetty and give short sails to anyone interested.
Cheers
Bristle
I just remembered an amusing "sea trial" by a couple of enterprising irish blokes that purported to be interested in buying a 50ft steel hulk we had at the time as a live aboard. They told my boss they wanted to try living on it for a couple of days to see if it was feasible. The owner was desparate to sell it so agreed. They paid their bond and motored off to Scotland Island. 2 days later they came back and said no good and got their deposit back. 3 days later a Scotland Island resident dropped in to our office. "Wow that was a huge party on your boat Saturday night"
Well, we see both the sublime and the ridiculous...
In the above examples it is not hard to see the difference btwn a well maintained boat and an ill maintained one and what a simple sea trial is able to unearth.
The buyers suspicion should be araised - if the boat has obvious faults like the blown sheave, the broken sheet, the sluggish alternator or the necessity of the hard use of the winch while raising the main sail - about the rest of the boat which is obviously not maintained to a standard. Period.
Sheaves don't blow up randomly and sheets don't disintegrate if regularly checked and maintained! Period.
The broken sheave indicates an ill maintained boat while the hole drilled in the hull proves that the owner is an incompetent. In both cases the condition of the rest of the vessel should be suspect, and the offer is going to decrease dramatically if purchase is considered at all.
Some suggest that used production yachts of the same brand and size all sail alike which suggestion is not only ridiculous but profoundly untrue.
Even boats out of the same mould and rigged alike sail differently let alone small production runs or one offs.
It is simply each boat to his own as every individual is different. Sailing yachts are not like cars or motorboats, more like motorcycles or highway trucks, with souls of their own.
To bring my own example into the fray, after scouring the coast from Adelaide to Mollolabah for over two years, l found this Adams 28 which l liked very much at first sight, after the initial checks and drooling over. Cisco was kind enough to give a second opinion, which l appreciate ever since.
After the consilium with my captain at the time, Graham Radford, the very designer of the yacht, he suggested to TAKE THE BOAT FOR A SAIL!
I talked to the dealer and he agreed to take it out without any deposit or strings attached, which we did, and there was no return for me, l got infected lethally on the spot.
Well, taking chances and not the option for a sea trial is every buyers perogative.
Run the engine on the mooring in forward, and then in reverse run it up for 10 minutes. Inspect for overheating, expensive noises, leaks and things like mounts.
Inspect the rig and it last rerig certificate. It usually needs replacing anyway.
Inspect all the sails on deck or ashore.
Run and inspect all systems for proper operation or poor maintenance.
I do my own out of water inspection and get a surveyor for the insurance. Every surveyor I have used didn't pick up anything I didn't and missed things I found.
I have only bought production boats, Duncanson/S&S34. I know how they perform.
A test sail of a production boat in one set of conditions, usually light and in harbour, won't tell a sailor anything they won't know from my sort of inspection.
My view, waste the sellers time.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..
Run the engine on the mooring in forward, and then in reverse run it up for 10 minutes. Inspect for overheating, expensive noises, leaks and things like mounts.
Inspect the rig and it last rerig certificate. It usually needs replacing anyway.
Inspect all the sails on deck or ashore.
Run and inspect all systems for proper operation or poor maintenance.
I do my own out of water inspection and get a surveyor for the insurance. Every surveyor I have used didn't pick up anything I didn't and missed things I found.
I have only bought production boats, Duncanson/S&S34. I know how they perform.
A test sail of a production boat in one set of conditions, usually light and in harbour, won't tell a sailor anything they won't know from my sort of inspection.
My view, waste the sellers time.
i agree , for someone who has sailed a sister yacht . they would find out more by doing as you say and spending the time crawling all over her.
Select to expand quotesirgallivant said..
Some suggest that used production yachts of the same brand and size all sail alike which suggestion is not only ridiculous but profoundly untrue.
Even boats out of the same mould and rigged alike sail differently let alone small production runs or one offs.
Geez, there's some pretty heavy language coming here, and it's almost all from one side, which is getting pretty damn insulting.
The difference between boats from the same mould and with the same rigging is normally pretty small (if significant at all) unless we're counting obvious issues like maintenance, specification and layout which you don't need a sail to identify. To use examples I know, you can hop from Laser to Laser, Tasar to Tasar, and from Windsurfer to Windsurfer and the differences in their performance will almost always be tiny and the reasons for any such difference quite starkly apparent. It's the same with many production yachts; Benny 40.7s, S 80s and J/24s for example.
Where there are significant differences between sisterships that you can notice when sailing it can often get down to a tuning problem - but you may not know that unless you've done lots of research on the design anyway. If, for example, you test sailed a J/24 and rejected it because it had lee helm in light winds - which is a tuning issue - you may be rejecting the boat for a pretty poor reason. Secondly, how does one know whether any perceived problem is due to the boat or to the sailor? Most boats have quirks; to imagine one will be able to handle them to their optimum the first time out, and therefore really know how good they are, is a big ask for the average sailor.
If you can't look at a production yacht and get a pretty good idea of how it will sail compared to its sisters then maybe it's your problem, and if you think that's rude then you shouldn't call other people's suggestions "ridiculous" and "untrue".
I am still pretty interested in why you wouldn't have a sea trial. However good your pre-trial process, you might pick up something extra. Whilst the trial may be in light conditions, it could also be in fair conditions. It might also help inform your maintenance/renovation schedule for when you've bought the boat.
I fully agree with not wasting the seller's time. The trial should only on a boat you've committed to buy (unless something exceptional and unexpected comes up in the trial). I would be suspicious of a seller who wouldn't allow a sea trial after price agreed and payment of deposit.
And, of course, I respect and value everyone's experience and opinion on this forum. I am genuinely intrigued with the range of opinions.
Cheers
Bristol
Because if you have done all your homework correctly in inspecting the boat including engine ,hull rigging etc and have negotiated the absolute best price out of the seller not only is it a waste of time but also tantamount to saying " well I've screwed you down on price now I want to see how well you sail it". To my mind it is a test sail not a sea trial and I would be insulting the seller if I had done the above correctly or I had not done the above to the best of my ability and was hoping to use it to get a couple of extra dollars off.
Some want one to convince the missus. Not on my boat mate.
I have only had three keel and the current swing keel boats one of which was purchased new and we had sea trials on her with the rigger and sailmaker to ensure all was ok in tuning etc. I did not test sail the other three and have no regrets.
When I sold the Cole 35 the buyer had everything checked thoroughly over three days including the engine by a mechanic who advised the alternator was stuffed and it needed a service . He said he would like a test sail before signing . Just the two of us on PPB blowing around 25 kts. We motored out of the pen for about 1 kilometre I handed the tiller to him and asked what he wanted to test . We could have raised the main with a couple of reefs but headsails were out of the question as the forestay had twin tracks and two people were needed ,one to the feed the sail into the track and one on the halyard. He suggested we go back and sign the papers. An absolute waste .By the same token I was very keen in buying a Farr 940 at that time ,boy was (is) she fast however she was very basic ,a mess below but sound and at a good price. The seller suggested we do the wag ,hoping to convince me . What he convinced me about was that he had a crack crew who could sail anything and make it go fast.
I think the point is that a sea trial is good but perhaps not the most efficient way to find issues. Don't rely on it.
Certainly it shouldn't be to see how that type of boat sails etc...inless its a unique design perhaps.
Thats my take anyway.
btw the only boat l sea trialed l didnt buy as it was a trailable with inadequate keel lifting. But that is an obvious thing to check on a trailable.
Other boats l have trusted as they were in regular use.
The current boat it didnt matter as the price was right!
Select to expand quoteI agree entirely with madmouse, the sea trial is the last part of a process with background research and survey/ inspection of the boat way before. And it should be a trial with specific objectives rather than any kind of test sail or keel kicking exercise.
Ah yes, I was chatting with the wife about this topic and she made some good points :
One off builds and special versions may not sail like any other boat so, no matter how much research you've done you need that sail. The same would go for major alterations - our boat was built with a 10m masthead rig but has been converted to 11m fractional. How will it sail? A neighbour on the dock was selling a one-off cat with an unstayed rotating mast. Cool, but I'd certainly want to see how that worked out on the water. Often older boats have been rather modified and it might be quite hard to be sure how they will handle.
Using something is not the same as looking at it - some equipment can only be effectively tested in use.
I had expected this topic to be pretty neutral. I am surprised how many strong opinions there are against the very concept of a test sail.
Each to their own of course.
Cheers
Bristle
Would you buy a car without having a test drive?
I think it's fair to place a deposit subject to survey and sea trial.
Well, to reply to bananabender, when we sea trialled our current boat with the broker (owner not present) only myself, the surveyor and my wife sailed the boat - i have no interest in how the owner might sail it. As it was, everything was acceptable and we made no attempt to amend the price. If a significant problem had been revealed, we would have requested repair, negotiated a suitable reduction or, if if major and unacceptable, walked away.
Vendors do conceal things. When I bought my first car, the vendor claimed a new door skin had been fitted to repair a bingle. I asked him why my magnet wouldn't stick to a brand new steel door. Yep, it was a tonne of filler, painted over. Makes you a touch suspicious. Oh, and it wasn't me being clever at that age - but my dad was pretty canny.
Cheers
Bristle
Select to expand quotesouthace said..
Would you buy a car without having a test drive?
I think it's fair to place a deposit subject to survey and sea trial.
I suppose it gets down to whatever your comfortable with
Select to expand quoteBananabender said..southace said..
Would you buy a car without having a test drive?
I think it's fair to place a deposit subject to survey and sea trial.
I suppose it gets down to whatever your comfortable with
Each to their own
I felt comfortable to buy mine sight unseen from the other side of the world.
Paid for a survey from a previous purchaser who didn't go ahead .
It was the boat I wanted at the right price it was a small risk but worth it.
sure small risk is acceptable , this is my real story buying Swanson.
1000 km away, sea trial , half an hour through channel in Port Pirie
and bilge pump was struggling . Owners and agent pointed and show me small leak of salt water pump. Hey it's a few $ fix. sure.
Me silly, not to know. She is mine.
A month later with box of O rings , leak is fix.
Now we go sailing, half an hour through channel , she is sinking.
Return back, removed all stuff from rear hatch, crawled in, completely
floodded, exhaust hose small wear.
A months later, new hose, new sea trial, really looking forward to hoist
the sail and feel the wind.
Half an hour through the Port Pirie channel, bilge pump running.
Real struggle to find the leak, salt water exhaust cooling , SS weld leak.
A month later real sea trial , night in Whyalla etc.
Sure bilge was sometimes on, just tiny leak of padle wheel speedo.
Now southern winter , 2 month later see my love.
Ouch the carpet was floating , this time, was not salt water.
She was not my love any more, she was on the market.
Commiserations, Chariott.
When I've bought without a sea trial it's because of logistics; buying a boat in SA from the ACT is one thing if the seller is going to Melbourne and can meet you half way but who is really going to drive to SA, do a sea trial and then pretend that you're not already basically committed to buy it? With the 36, we knew of the owners, loved the design, were very happy with price and condition, lived interstate and didn't want to delay the deal while we went back for a sea trial, because that could (and would) have meant losing the chance to buy a boat we love.
A lot has been said here about the pros and cons of a sea trial whether buying or selling.
Transfer of boat ownership and or registration has some legal requirements such as gas certificates etc depending on which state legislation the vessel is subject to.
Unlike motor vehicles, boats are not YET subject to "seaworthiness certificates" in order to transfer ownership.
No doubt "seaworthiness certificates" will become part of our future in the "Nanny States" we live in and like motor vehicles requiring a road trial, boats will require a "sea trial" for transfer of registration.
They already are if your boat is over a certain age and you want any kind of insurance including public liability only.
