The heading says it all really but for context... I recently had dealings with a seller that seemed quite nice but then seemed to turn somewhat and try to change the deal, which had always included a pre-purchase survey and sea trial. The boat is not in the water and we had offered and agreed to pay for the lift both ways. Anyway it seemed very odd or shall I say suss, so we have just left it. Maybe they will find someone that doesn't care?
I worked P/T as a yacht broker and sometimes the tyre kickers would ask for a sea trial just to get a free sail. That made us reluctant to do it. They would even bring the whole family! The possibility of breaking the boat was also a reason to avoid it, especially if the seller is short of $$$ already which is why he is selling it. Some boats are standard and simply dont need one. I bought my Mottle 33 without a sea trial because I knew it would be fine. I think if the seller is convinced the buyer is real the sea trial is more likely.
I would have thought that paying good money for a pre-purchase surveyor to do a survey and then the sea trial and paying for lift in and out of the water would have been a pretty good indication of commitment to the purchase. Without the sea trial there is no way to know in this case whether the engine even works for example. I can understand if someone had rocked up and wanted to go for a sail, but that is far removed from the circumstance here.
Regarding the fear of damage.... maybe there is something in that, but the sea trial was to be done by a 40 year veteran surveyor that they even suggested, as he was at the same marina and the owner of course. Myself and my wife personally would have just been observers.
I bought a Cole 35 that had been out of the water for six months although I did have it surveyed . No sea trial . No probs.
I then bought current Sonata 6 sight unseen subject to there being no structural damage on hand over. Admittedly not big dollars and I was high on medication. Unplanned expenditure over next four months was
$2300 .
Never buy a boat without a sea trial - walk away.
I thought the standard process was to agree price subject to sea trial & survey, pay deposit of 10% (ish) subject to same, then trial and survey. If all ok, pay balance, if unexpected issue, renegotiate price, agree repairs or walk away with deposit returned.
Cheers
Bristle
It could have been an Insurance issue....the cover may have run out on the hard. Now without insurance thet won't lift it into the water?
G'day About,
For me it depends upon the purchase price, for a sub $2k boat maybe not.
For a $30k boat I'd expect it, and want to put up all sails and do so in a fresh breeze so I could hear /feel squeaks and rattles, motor for a while, as well as get a survey.
For my boat, being new at the time, the sea trials lasted a week. We sailed every day, and tested every single system. For the instruments we even had a vendor rep for the day testing every piece of kit.
Horses for courses I suppose.
Never brought a boat with a sea trial.
If you can't see the problem get out of the market!
The surveyors report is only for the insurance company.
I bought a boat of ebay, no sea trial. Looked at it and thought nah to much work. Couple of days later i bidded and won it. Always love a challenge
I think an on water demonstration of the boat is a courtesy the seller owes the buyer, ...........however, it is up to the seller to qualify the buyer as to whether he/she is serious about buying or not and it does not matter how high or low the price of the boat is.
Easy to do . Questions are the answer.
Seller to buyer. You have inspected the boat on the marina/slip/mooring. Are you satisfied with everything so far?
No. .....Deal with the problem.
Yes......So if the boat motors and sail as expected, would there be anything standing in the way of your ownership of the yacht? (A polite way of asking "Will you buy it?")
Buyer to seller. Oh well I would have to think about it.
Seller to buyer. Sure. You have 5 minutes starting now.
Buyer to seller. Oh well I have a few other boats to look at.
Seller to buyer. Sure. Go and have a look at them and if they do not measure up, come back to me and we will go for a sail.
He who asks the most questions wins.
The whole of life is a sale, whether you are dealing with your wife, children or the guy next door.
Would I buy a boat without a test sail? Probably not. On the two occasions I have done, both have been a disaster.
we had offered and agreed to pay for the lift both ways.
So I take it that you? ( the buyer)?offered to pay and the vendor refused.
Did he/she give a reason?????
Gary
What an interesting subject. If you compare it to cars, or motorcycles.... would you buy a car without a test drive? Or a Motorcycle? The few brokers I've dealt with were quite happy to have a test sail, once a price and survey were completed with a deposit agreed.
I went with a friend not so long ago to see a motorcycle, a 1980s jap bike. The owner didn't really want us to ride it. Turned out 2nd gear was really noisy, but otherwise it looked fantastic, showroom even.
You have to get a feel for it. Not only to see that all systems and fittings work but also to see whether the vehicle, what ever it is, speaks to you and makes you feel right about it.
I guess some can do that with out a test drive/sail/ride, but I can't.
Just to answer a few things from above....
Thanks for all the comments.
Shaggybaxter - This is not a cheap boat. Advertised at 75k to give an idea.
agentnods - Yes, the vendor says that it is still currently insured, so that is not it.
lydia - I laughed that you thought you could look at a motor and just know it was OK. Actually it's impossible without divining powers perhaps. Personally, being mere mortal, I need to at least see it start and run to know it works. So I will stay in the market, thanks anyway! I assume this was a joke comment.
Cisco - Totally agree and have gone above and beyond on that one. Just turns out that things that had been agreed were no longer going to be honoured.. Nothing in writing of course as was their choice and my bad for not insisting. Not that that would change anything unless your willing to pursue which is often more trouble than it's worth. Life is too short and many other boat options.
garymalmgren - They had already agreed to the sea trial on at least 3 occasions. They gave no reason for now not agreeing to it.
About,
It sounds like you did the right thing by walking. That's bizarre behaviour by the seller, and to be honest the broker too.
If you were paying for the lift, why the hell would you not agree to sea trials?
A mate sold his boat recently, he did three test sails and a survey and his boat was half the cost of what you're looking at.
At that price , the seller's a fool. Love to know what he was thinking.
cheers,
SB
When I was looking there were several boats that were for sale, but only because the wife wanted them sold. We looked at one boat where the seller immediately listed all of the defects and problems with it, despite wanting top dollar.
This is how I think it goes:
Darling we really need some extra cash, why don't you sell the boat? After all you hardly use it and it costs a lot to keep.
No, I love that boat and one day we'll get away on that big adventure.
But darling you know I'd rather just cruise with P&O and we can always charter a bareboat, it will be cheaper in the long run
No I don't want to sell it
Sell the boat (repeated 100 times at strategic moments)
Okay but even though we only paid $60k I need to get some of the money I spent on it back, we can't let it go for less than $80k
Okay thank you darling, I can't wait to see you in your white linen suit on the bow of the MS Soul Destroyer
So the boat goes on the market for $90k and attracts a few heel kickers that are easily discouraged until one someone is actually interested in the boat. The vendor does the best he can to discourage the sale but eventually he has to find some fictitious reason not to sell the boat and takes it off the market. He then goes back to his wife stating the sale fell through and the market is not right to sell and that he will re-list later in the year.
I have and will buy without a sea trial, but not without a survey that includes running the donk.
On the average day the weather is unlikely to be tough enough to show latent flaws. The vendor is also unlikely to allow anyone to push the boat hard enough to reveal significant issues that could not be identified by inspection and survey.
Wander - Loved the MS Soul Destroyer.
Chris 249 - Yep. The donk is the main issue for me and there is no way to test it where it is, as it is prohibited to start in the dry storage area where the boat is.
I have a friend who took a boat for a test sail. They sailed on Starboard tack and then the owner took the sails down and headed back. After buying the boat, it turnout that the spreaders that were stressed on the Port tack were split, but not visible as they were covered under a nice new boot on the spreader.
A
Hey I met a guy once who solved the problem of those only wanting to go for a sail, he charged them $100.00 for the sail for half a day with the understanding that should a sale be made the money would come off the bill. Claims that it worked well, eliminated all the tyre kickers. 
i want to see them out of the water to check the bottom but a sea trial isn't going to tell me anything i dont know by looking at the hull and inspecting the equipment
Select to expand quoteboty said..
i want to see them out of the water to check the bottom but a sea trial isn't going to tell me anything i dont know by looking at the hull and inspecting the equipment
boty - how do you know that the engine works without starting it though?
Before I bought my current yacht, I made an offer and paid a $10k deposit on a brand new 34' German production boat of which brand I had previously been part owner of the larger 40' and 43' models which both sailed extremely well.
But I made sure that my offer was qualified as 'subject to a satisfactory test sail'. On the test sail I took along my daughter, a reasonably experienced sailor, for a second opinion. It took less than half an hour for us to agree that the sailing performance was 'underwhelming' and we advised the dealer who offered a second test sail with their principal the next day.
Equally unimpressed after the second test sail, I said I was not satisfied and the $10k was back in my bank account the next day.
The story had a happy ending when I found my Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 349 which sails like a dream and negotiated the same price for the same specifications as the German rival.
So I for one would not buy a yacht without a sea trial - or haul-out inspection come to that.
Are you guys, who would not ask for a sea trial, for real?
You got to be kidding!
Select to expand quotesirgallivant said..
Are you guys, who would not ask for a sea trial, for real?
You got to be kidding!
No, we're all morons and we're not real...... :-)
What was I going to find out about my current boat from a sea trial? There are dozens of sisterships around and hundreds of boats with the same hull and deck. I'd actually discussed the boat with its own designer years before, and read a lot of information from owners and crew as well as checked out ratings and race performances. I also knew of the owners.
The day we went to inspect her, the breeze was about 5 to 10 knots and we were miles from the open sea. What would a sea trial have demonstrated that I did not already know? In a year's sailing I still have found nothing significant that any trial sail in those conditons would have revealed. Many of the same remarks apply to other boats I've bought without a test sail. There's never been a "oh damn" moment when some major defect came to light.
Of course test sails CAN be revealing; I worked as a sailing and windsurfing journalist for years so did lots of test sailing. However, I reckon if a design has been around for a while then you are better off doing research on its sisterships and going a good inspection than taking it for a test sail in the usual mild conditions, and that may actually show a lot more about the sailor than what they are sailing.
As an example, take four random sailors and get them to "sea trial" a used Laser, a used Heron and a used foiling Moth. Their reports will probably tell you a lot more about their own experience and ability than about the condition of each boat, and how well it may go with a little work.
How do you know the engine works at all without being able to start it or do you just take the sellers word that it is OK?
A serious engine issue does not seem to be in any way a cheap or insignificant problem if it was hidden. Eg. what is the cost to replace or rebuild an 80hp engine. Are some people saying you should just wear the risk and cost?
Not being able to start an engine is a different thing to not being able to undertake a test sail.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
Not being able to start an engine is a different thing to not being able to undertake a test sail.
I agree. In my case that is the situation though, which would have been covered off as a normal part of the sea trial and it was the only option.
A test sail is rarely going to show a major problem with an engine.
Tying the boat to the dock and running at WOT for an hour usually will but you don't get to do that on a test sail.
I should say I usually offer on the basis of engine replacement if the boat has any age on it.
New engines have never been cheaper.
Cheers
Each to his own of course - although when I come to sell, I hope I get one of the "no sea trial guys"
I guess that there are a number of things that you'd check or recheck under actual sea trial conditions :
Engine performance under load, when heeled, when properly warm. Restart. Charging. Cooling.
Gear box ditto.
Standing rigging, running rigging, sail hoisting, condition, furlers etc. Rudder. Propwalk
Water leaks appearing.
Odd sailing/ motoring tendencies for example significantly better performance on one tack.
Unexpected clanks and rattles.
Instruments. Radar. AIS
Now I know you can do some of this on the hard or alongside, but even then only by actually sailing will you find intermittent or load related faults. Even on our trial the alternator revealed its intermittent charging and a sheave blew under load. Not at all major but only spotted at sea. I sailed on one boat where the owner had drilled an extra drain hole for the anchor locker - only noticeable on starboard tack, but then REALLY obvious!
I suppose my view is why not have a sea trial?
Cheers
Bristle
