Wear your PFD!

thewest.com.au/news/disaster-and-emergency/visitors-witness-fisherman-flung-from-vessel-at-hillarys-boat-harbour-ng-b881211581z.amp

Another tragedy that could have been avoided by simply wearing a life jacket (and maybe a kill switch leash). I feel for his family and for the bloke who lost his best mate. What a shame.

Yes, always wear your pfd, but it wouldn't have helped this bloke. Sounds like a bit of carelessness (as we have all done) plus a bit of bad luck.

Wear a PFD in your boat, and a full-face helmet in your car when driving to it. After all, car accidents kill far more people. When at home or out walking, always wear a bicycle helmet - they never stopped a good day in the house, and falls kill far more people than boats do. When out bushwalking or cycling, don't even consider going without paying for a paramedic to follow you around - you never know what could happen! And of course, do not even consider entering your swimming pool without one of these; wearing a survival suit never stopped a good day at the pool!


Seriously, though, check out the chances of dying when sailing - they are absolutely minute. When I've worked it out there seems to be NO more chance of dying while sailing than of dying at any random day in the office, home or car. Sure, small runaboats have a bad safety record, but why should people on larger, vastly more stable craft wear PFDs because they help people whose tinny falls over?

There seems to be no reason to assume that either of these guys were affected by not wearing a PFD.

Select to expand quote

saintpeter said..
+1, Chris.
I sail solo generally, so only wear L/J when I need to tether on.
For me: Rule 1 - Don't go over the side. Rule 2 - same as R #1.

Why be a rebel law breaker ? good luck explaining your 2 rules to Mr aqua plod ! And you never know , a tap on the head and in you go, unconscious then come to and your auto PFD has saved you .
I just don't see whats so hard about wearing a PFD ?

There is an idea out there that a PFD is always safer. There are many times they are not. A few are

- when you are trying to row a dinghy in a blow, a pfd catches the oars as you pull hard.
- when you have a spectacular swim in a boat like a Laser and roll heavily to windward. In some circumstances, the sail can stay filled and the boat drags away dead downwind. You better be able to swim really fast, or ensure you have hold of your mainsheet. I have seen blokes with the full safety gear have to be picked up by the rescue boat because they couldn't swim after the boat fast enough.
- if you are kayaking near the surf zone - try diving with a PFD on. It makes you stay up top and get hit by the breakers in the break zone
- or try getting back on board your yacht with a large PFD inflated. The bulk makes it hard to lift yourself on.

My take on it is that we have become the people we were warned about - ready to blame others for our own actions and not keep ourselves fit enough to be safe. A PFD is often a really good idea but many skiff sailors and sailboarders in the surf find them dangerous. I will never have an automatic inflating PFD on me as they can inflate when not required and sometimes I will want to swim fast, even if only for a short time. A PFD slows me down. For someone unfit, they may be a good option. For multihullers, with even a small risk of capsize a self inflater is not what you want.

I have helped many kayakers, with their vests filled with safety gear try to get back into their kayaks. If only they lost some weight, got some strength in their arms and cleared their deck of all the extraneous gear they would roll right back in. Safety is also fitness, balance, the ability to swim up to and climb onto your boat, and a whole lot more. I wear an inflatable PFD almost all the time offshore and clip in much of the time, all of the time when conditions get at all tricky. But I can't stand it that kids can be swimming next to me but I should be wearing a PFD to row out to my boat where I can have a swim - without a PFD. Sod the police.

Select to expand quote

All@Sea said..

SandS said..

saintpeter said..
+1, Chris.
I sail solo generally, so only wear L/J when I need to tether on.
For me: Rule 1 - Don't go over the side. Rule 2 - same as R #1.

Why be a rebel law breaker ? good luck explaining your 2 rules to Mr aqua plod ! And you never know , a tap on the head and in you go, unconscious then come to and your auto PFD has saved you .
I just don't see whats so hard about wearing a PFD ?

I believe its a legal requirement to carry a PFD for every POB a vessel greater than 6m, but up to the (adult) user's discretion when to wear it.

in victoria when solo in any boat its a requirement , not sure about tas

IMO it's horses for courses ,common sense and legal requirements.
When I was younger never wore pfd.
safety harness mandatory when rough or nighttime for me and crew .If solo racing safety harness.
Social sailing , kids yes for PDFs ,common sense for rest.
Thesedays I solo sail and always wear PFD . Why? Because if I was wearing a safety harness and fell overboard there's absolutely no way I could pull myself onboard at my age. Stuff the boat I have a plb in the pfd .
How many here have tried climbing back on board a moving boat with clothes etc. , it's bloody hard.

Select to expand quote

SandS said..

saintpeter said..
+1, Chris.
I sail solo generally, so only wear L/J when I need to tether on.
For me: Rule 1 - Don't go over the side. Rule 2 - same as R #1.

Why be a rebel law breaker ? good luck explaining your 2 rules to Mr aqua plod ! And you never know , a tap on the head and in you go, unconscious then come to and your auto PFD has saved you .
I just don't see whats so hard about wearing a PFD ?

I sometimes wear them for about four hours a day when dinghy sailing or windsurfing and I still find them uncomfortable and annoying. Since they do not protect me as the authorities claim, and that I know they are a hassle, I see no reason to wear one all the time.

Secondly, if you fall in unconscious a pfd will probably NOT save you! As a very senior member of the sailing safety officialdom said to me, if you go in unconscious a PFD will probably just help rescuers find your body. They do not keep the airways clear of chop and waves, so you will drown in your PFD.

If a head injury is an issue, why not wear a helmet? All the arguments that can justify wearing a PFD can be used to say you should wear a helmet while sailing or in a powerboat. In fact, if we are going to take a "safety first" approach then some studies show that we should wear a bike helmet while driving down to the boat. In fact, to be really safe why not just wearing a bike helmet at home? One million Australians fall at home each year and one in five of them suffer a head injury or broken bone - a bike helmet could alleviate the head injuries so why not wear one 24/7? After all, if one risk is worth avoiding why is a greater risk not worth avoiding?

Of course not even a normal helmet is really enough to protect all the head - we should wear a full face one. Imagine if this poor guy had been doing the right thing and wearing a full-face helmet - he'd be alive today. Therefore we should ALL wear full face helmets all the time.

Professional fishermen are exempt from wearing life jackets crossing a bar in NSW.

im going to put my beer down now, grab my burka, don the stig lid and jog on down to the club now for a mid week cruise.

It's not a dress rehearsal fellas.

So, a PFD isn't going to stop you from falling into the water, it's only going to be of benefit once you're in the water.
No surprise there, but if you don't wear one and then fall in, it's not going to help you while it's still on the boat.

Chris, if you're going to quote statistics and make big statements about the risks of dying while yachting, I'm going to need to see those stats.
Also, would be interested to see what the stats show about survivability once you're in the water PFD versus no PFD.

There are so many different types of PFD's out there, most people should be able to find one that suits them and the activities they pursue, so that when that one missed step, unexpected wake, broken tiller or bit of gear lets go and you end up in the drink you're much more likely to be picked up.

In response to your last statement alone, I would like to see your evidenced based claim that as a yachtsperson the wearing of PFD's does not decrease your risk of ......? (your made a very broad claim, risk of what?) You're the one making the claim so the burden of proof lies with you.
The mandatory wearing of PFD's surely hasn't had the same dramatic impact on loss of life as the introduction of mandatory wearing of seatbelts in cars, but I'd very, very surprised if it was completely insignificant.

Select to expand quote

Chris249 said..

SandS said..

saintpeter said..
+1, Chris.
I sail solo generally, so only wear L/J when I need to tether on.
For me: Rule 1 - Don't go over the side. Rule 2 - same as R #1.

Why be a rebel law breaker ? good luck explaining your 2 rules to Mr aqua plod ! And you never know , a tap on the head and in you go, unconscious then come to and your auto PFD has saved you .
I just don't see whats so hard about wearing a PFD ?

I sometimes wear them for about four hours a day when dinghy sailing or windsurfing and I still find them uncomfortable and annoying. Since they do not protect me as the authorities claim, and that I know they are a hassle, I see no reason to wear one all the time.

Secondly, if you fall in unconscious a pfd will probably NOT save you! As a very senior member of the sailing safety officialdom said to me, if you go in unconscious a PFD will probably just help rescuers find your body. They do not keep the airways clear of chop and waves, so you will drown in your PFD.

If a head injury is an issue, why not wear a helmet? All the arguments that can justify wearing a PFD can be used to say you should wear a helmet while sailing or in a powerboat. In fact, if we are going to take a "safety first" approach then some studies show that we should wear a bike helmet while driving down to the boat. In fact, to be really safe why not just wearing a bike helmet at home? One million Australians fall at home each year and one in five of them suffer a head injury or broken bone - a bike helmet could alleviate the head injuries so why not wear one 24/7? After all, if one risk is worth avoiding why is a greater risk not worth avoiding?

Of course not even a normal helmet is really enough to protect all the head - we should wear a full face one. Imagine if this poor guy had been doing the right thing and wearing a full-face helmet - he'd be alive today. Therefore we should ALL wear full face helmets all the time.

Of course you can bang on about this all you like . But the real truth is, you will stand a better chance of survival in the water if you are wearing a PFD . And your right a helmet has been proven to be a great idea in heavy conditions .

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..
Professional fishermen are exempt from wearing life jackets crossing a bar in NSW.

I guess that comes with the territory, vessel size /displacement / horsepower. Can't imagine a 80ft charter vessel requiring all on board to donn life jackets to cross a bar in normal conditions.
Generally I don't see the problem with Pfds, it is a bit dumb I agree to have to have one on to row 20m out to your ship, but I put an inflatable on when I cross the bar and it stays on all day, just kinda forget about it. Likewise I've never gone waterskiing or dingy sailing without an appropriate jacket ( I think they used to be class 2 ? ) you can still swim around in em to get your stick, right your dingy or just lay about laughing your arse off.
While I'm at it, something that bambozles me is the industry standard Solas and coastal jackets, you know the ones poke ya head through the hole and tie it around ya midsection, if you can keep it on it will keep you afloat . I think they might be the ones giving life jackets / PFDs a bad wrap

Select to expand quote

D3 said..
So, a PFD isn't going to stop you from falling into the water, it's only going to be of benefit once you're in the water.
No surprise there, but if you don't wear one and then fall in, it's not going to help you while it's still on the boat.

Chris, if you're going to quote statistics and make big statements about the risks of dying while yachting, I'm going to need to see those stats.
Also, would be interested to see what the stats show about survivability once you're in the water PFD versus no PFD.

There are so many different types of PFD's out there, most people should be able to find one that suits them and the activities they pursue, so that when that one missed step, unexpected wake, broken tiller or bit of gear lets go and you end up in the drink you're much more likely to be picked up.

In response to your last statement alone, I would like to see your evidenced based claim that as a yachtsperson the wearing of PFD's does not decrease your risk of ......? (your made a very broad claim, risk of what?) You're the one making the claim so the burden of proof lies with you.
The mandatory wearing of PFD's surely hasn't had the same dramatic impact on loss of life as the introduction of mandatory wearing of seatbelts in cars, but I'd very, very surprised if it was completely insignificant.

Actually D3, the original poster was the one making the big statements, not me. He was the one telling us what to do, with an exclamation mark.

Since I am not the one telling people what to do, the burden of proof does not lie with me. However, I may as well say that my research in this area includes, for example, being in the water in MOB exercises; doing other research such as talking to Barry Bonds (if I recall his name correctly) the former US Navy officer who was US Sailing's head of safety about their PFD policy; and a lot of other research on MOB incidents and statistics. On top of that, I created a submission on PFD use for windsurfers that included, among other research, discussing the issue with the technical experts at Life Saving Australia. Roads and Maritime publicly said that it was well researched and convincing - so much so that they backtracked on laws they had publicly proposed. I attended much of the '98 Sydney-Hobart inquest, and have been at a memorial service for sailors I knew. At uni, I did a research piece on Standards Australia's faulty certification of MOB gear, including researching the issue with Tony Mooney from Yachting Australia and Standards Australia staff and going through the minutes of their meetings. So I think it is fair to say that MOB safety, which has interested me almost my whole life since my father was lost as a MOB when I was three years old, is something that I have a vague idea about.

I don't have a copy of the stats I worked on when I calculated the chances of death while sailing compared to the normal chance of death. However, why since I am not the one telling people what to do, I assume that you can fill us in on some of the MOBs that have occurred to yachtspeople in Australia. To throw a few around, off the top of my head of course there's Ron Robertson in a CYCA race about 1957; the couple who both ended up in the ocean in a WA race about 1978; LJ off WO (name withheld) off Cronulla in a CYCA race about 1998; the more recent A10 incidents and the one involving a 45'-ish IMS boat in Port Phillip. Overseas, of course, we have the Obsession tragedy in the 1978 SORC; Duncan Monroe-Kerr in a RORC race in about 1989; the Maitenes II incident; and of course the triple tragedy in the 1926 (I think) Transat. I'll give you some more any time you like if you to see evidence that I'm aware of MOB incidents.

I think that roll call may give a clue about my knowledge of MOB incidents; of course there are many more. But the fact is that if you take the MOB incidents involving yachts over the last couple of decades and then count the number of boats doing Cat 1-3 races alone, and then multiply the number of person/days involved and how rare the incidents are, you will see that even before PFD use became at all common, there were very, very, very few deaths from people going overboard from yachts.

Incidentally, this is backed up very strongly by the UK reports. Sailing is about as popular in the UK as it is in Australia (reference, Sport England Active People survey just to show I'm not making it up) and in 2018 just 3 of the 263 people who drowned were sailing; they may have been on yachts, dinghies or whatever. To put it in context, a whacking 93 managed to drown while running or walking along the coasts, rivers, bays and canals. In 2017 one person drowned while sailing - the same number as drown in the bath each of the last two years. I spend more time sailing than in the bath so according to that statistic I should wear a PFD in the bath!

Some of the stats used in Oz can also be very misleading, by the way - some say that most people who drowned did not wear lifejackets but omit to mention that many people who drowned were swimming for fun in inland rivers, often while drunk. Such deaths, like those involving capsized runaboats, are not evidence that sober sailors on yachts need to wear PFDs all the time.

When the evidence for full-time PFD use while yachting is that weak, and people who do not know how much time other individuals spend in the water and how well they can swim or get themselves back aboard, there seems to be no reason for people to tell everyone else to wear a PFD. By the way I started wearing a MOB light when ocean racing in 1979, when they were almost unknown, and I've worn a helmet sailing. I'm NOT against safety - no one would be when they have lost a parent overboard and been involved in unsuccessful searches for people they knew - but being rational means that we take preventative measures that are measured against the risks we face. Being lost overboard is, for many of us, a vanishingly small risk and our safety efforts should arguably go elsewhere.

One other point, I may note, is that MOB discussions have come up in forums like this one it's apparent that many people haven't shown that they can get back on board their own boats or get someone else aboard, and many of them have no recovery gear. Many people don't know the angle at which to recover a MOB with hypothermia. One of my concerns is that concentrating on wearing a PFD may be distracting people from such issues, just as it may distract them from looking out for the wakes or booms that can put them in the water - a place that can be perfectly safe if well prepared, or deadly even if wearing a PFD.

Select to expand quote

Chris249 said..

SandS said..

Chris249 said..

SandS said..

saintpeter said..
+1, Chris.
I sail solo generally, so only wear L/J when I need to tether on.
For me: Rule 1 - Don't go over the side. Rule 2 - same as R #1.

Why be a rebel law breaker ? good luck explaining your 2 rules to Mr aqua plod ! And you never know , a tap on the head and in you go, unconscious then come to and your auto PFD has saved you .
I just don't see whats so hard about wearing a PFD ?

I sometimes wear them for about four hours a day when dinghy sailing or windsurfing and I still find them uncomfortable and annoying. Since they do not protect me as the authorities claim, and that I know they are a hassle, I see no reason to wear one all the time.

Secondly, if you fall in unconscious a pfd will probably NOT save you! As a very senior member of the sailing safety officialdom said to me, if you go in unconscious a PFD will probably just help rescuers find your body. They do not keep the airways clear of chop and waves, so you will drown in your PFD.

If a head injury is an issue, why not wear a helmet? All the arguments that can justify wearing a PFD can be used to say you should wear a helmet while sailing or in a powerboat. In fact, if we are going to take a "safety first" approach then some studies show that we should wear a bike helmet while driving down to the boat. In fact, to be really safe why not just wearing a bike helmet at home? One million Australians fall at home each year and one in five of them suffer a head injury or broken bone - a bike helmet could alleviate the head injuries so why not wear one 24/7? After all, if one risk is worth avoiding why is a greater risk not worth avoiding?

Of course not even a normal helmet is really enough to protect all the head - we should wear a full face one. Imagine if this poor guy had been doing the right thing and wearing a full-face helmet - he'd be alive today. Therefore we should ALL wear full face helmets all the time.

Of course you can bang on about this all you like . But the real truth is, you will stand a better chance of survival in the water if you are wearing a PFD . And your right a helmet has been proven to be a great idea in heavy conditions .

But will I? Where is the evidence? And how much better is the chance?

Yes, the guys who never spend much time in the water may have a significantly better chance of survival. But that is not all of us.

Yes you will . The evidence is in any story you have ever heard , where the MOB was wearing a pfd and survived . As opposed to any story you have ever heard , where the MOB was not wearing a pfd and perished.
Even only one account of each event, [ and i know there are many more of the latter] should be enough for you to decide which action will give you a much better chance.of survival ,if you do end up in the water.

You may may wish to role the dice , and back yourself in, to tread water for hours waiting for rescue . But please don't encourage anyone reading this to follow your gambling habits.

PFD were not designed to hang in the locker , there is another fact .

A self inflating life jacket may save your life if you fall in the water unconscious for whatever reason. My advice is practice how to deflate it. I had one go off on me in the surf and it rendered me pretty much useless. I couldn't get it off quick enough. I haven't done any man overboard training, but inflated it would make pulling yourself back up on a boat or dinghy pretty difficult.