Royal New Zealand Navy vessel HMNZS Manawanui runs aground near Samoa

Bugger, it's on fire and sinking
www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hmnzs-manawanui-on-fire-and-tilting-badly-after-it-ran-aground-off-the-coast-of-samoa-last-night/44PLWNBV6RBVJHLVHARNGMOUKU/

Stu the Pirate wins. Mic dropped. If you don't understand, google is your friend.

Was this not the vessel that rescued all those distressed yachts in the Pacific Queens birthday storm.? I was monitoring all the traffic on SSB. I am pretty sure it was this ship that was involved with others in the rescue.

Yep, no need to make it about gender. The forum's for everyone.

My last RAN ship, 40% of the ship was female. I have served under male and female captains. No difference.

Jules, I suggest you are the one out of touch with a modern workforce.

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julesmoto said..

JonE said..
Yep, no need to make it about gender. The forum's for everyone.

When I start reading things like falling in love with her country on a camper van tour in an article about a captain losing a ship I know what forces are at play.

I don't recall reading irrelevant crap like this about the captain of the Bayesian. Maybe we should all be reading about what a great husband and father he is and how he loves his country? Makes me wonder whether she was a DEI appointment in the first place taking the job from someone who may not have run the ship aground in the first place.

I'm betting on a token investigation with a white wash or shifting of blame down the chain of command.

There will be a court marshal. The navy always finds someone at fault. In 1966 I was on a frigate that ran aground on an uncharted rock and spent 3 months in a floating dock in Singapore. The navigating officer was court marshaled. His punishment was a 2 years navigation course in Britain and a promotion.

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julesmoto said..
Not a good look. Nor is praising the captain for an orderly evacuation whilst ignoring the elephant in the room. But then again she is a woman so she can't be criticized by the media or indeed probably anyone in the government or public service/defence job.

Bwahaha - wow, triggered much?

"What? A woman you say. Poor show old man !! Next they'll be lettin' em vote and own property !"

Yara has the right attitude but the original post contained a link to a blatantly feminist/woke article which is all too prevalent today and is a perfect example of how the media brainwashes our society including the intellectual minnows who think that I am criticizing women in the workforce generally rather than the differential way they are treated when they screw up.

The fact is that this is a very serious matter on so many levels. Firstly an extremely expensive asset paid for by taxpayers has been trashed. Secondly scores of lives have been placed at risk. Let us not forget this is the NAVY the primary purpose of which is to fight wars. Life and death decisions for the whole crew may one day be made in split seconds under pressure. There is no place for excusing people because they "love their country" or once participated in relatable globe trotting adventurers such as backpacking/caravaning.

Ramona brings up another example of incompetence not being dealt with seriously and of course there are many many such examples in naval history and indeed very recent naval history ranging from nepotism in the British navy of the past to corruption in the current Russian armed forces and arms supply. None are too be applauded or tolerated. There are some recent good examples of USN captains having their jobs taken from them which is as it should be.
I don't know anything about the circumstances of the event that Ramona refers to but I would hazard a guess that it is hard to attract people into the armed forces and it costs an inordinate amount of money to train someone up to the level of Captain. Instead therefore of getting rid of the captain or demoting him the navy seemed prepared to hope that it was a single mistake rather than to look around and invest in someone else without a track record of failure.

I also don't appreciate ageist slurs from people who have not only missed the point of my comment but resort to slurs in order to bolster their inability to make a proper argument.

I kind of expected more from the sailing fraternity but hey I guess this is the internet after all and the woke brainwashing of our age pervades all facets of society.

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julesmoto said..
Not a good look. Nor is praising the captain for an orderly evacuation whilst ignoring the elephant in the room. But then again she is a woman so she can't be criticized by the media or indeed probably anyone in the government or public service/defence job.

So what, in your opinion, is the elephant in the room?

Why would you expect the RNZN to have enough information within 12 hours of the vessel sinking for them to have conducted a Court-martial and reach decisions like:
- Stripping her of command
- Demotion or even ejection from the service?

I had a similar issue with people making comments on the Fiji patrol boat that ran aground.

Hard to make criticism if you don't have any information about the incident, why not wait for the BOI before making commentary on the repercussions for the CO and Nav?

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D3 said..

julesmoto said..
Not a good look. Nor is praising the captain for an orderly evacuation whilst ignoring the elephant in the room. But then again she is a woman so she can't be criticized by the media or indeed probably anyone in the government or public service/defence job.

So what, in your opinion, is the elephant in the room?

Why would you expect the RNZN to have enough information within 12 hours of the vessel sinking for them to have conducted a Court-martial and reach decisions like:
- Stripping her of command
- Demotion or even ejection from the service?

I had a similar issue with people making comments on the Fiji patrol boat that ran aground.

Hard to make criticism if you don't have any information about the incident?

The elephant in the room is that she lost a multi-million dollar ship not whether she was an adventurous backpacker in her youth who loved New Zealand better than the UK.

I don't believe I made any comment about the timing of any court martial or other action against her.

According to Patrick O'Brien's "Master and Commander" series (yeah, its fiction, but it seems authentic), the Captain is Court Martialed whenever he loses a ship. I suppose they call it a Board of Inquiry, now.

I could be wrong here.
Courts Martial is military justice system to determine guilt and decide punishment.

Whereas the purpose of a BOI is 'to determine the facts and circumstances surrounding an incident or situation so that an informed decision may be taken about the action required including, where appropriate, action to avoid a recurrence'.
This can then decide that a Court-martial may be necessary for individuals involved.

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julesmoto said..
Yara has the right attitude but the original post contained a link to a blatantly feminist/woke article which is all too prevalent today and is a perfect example of how the media brainwashes our society including the intellectual minnows who think that I am criticizing women in the workforce generally rather than the differential way they are treated when they screw up.

I also don't appreciate ageist slurs from people who have not only missed the point of my comment but resort to slurs in order to bolster their inability to make a proper argument.

I kind of expected more from the sailing fraternity but hey I guess this is the internet after all and the woke brainwashing of our age pervades all facets of society.

Since you seem to like old-fashioned frankness and insults, let's play it your way - your claim that "she is a woman so she can't be criticized by the media or indeed probably anyone in the government or public service/defence job" is a lie. Women can be and are criticised by the media and government; look at the insults copped by Gillard, Credlin, Liz Truss, NSW police commissioner Karen Webb and many others. Your claim that women can't be criticised is BS, pure and simple.

You claimed that "(w)hen I start reading things like falling in love with her country on a camper van tour in an article about a captain losing a ship I know what forces are at play" so it seems that you are trying to say that the article shows bias because it mentions why the captain moved to NZ. That's just not logical - there was lots of media about why Team NZ sailors moved to Switzerland, there's media about why NZ police officers are moving to Qld, there has been media about why an Australian Olympic cyclist has moved to the UK, and many similar articles.

In other words, it's common to have media pieces about the reasons why men move from one country to another, so there is no logical reason to see "forces at play" when one media piece mentions why a woman has moved from one country to another. To see some "forces at play" when the media treats a women just like it treats men is not logical.

There's also nothing sexist or novel in saying that a ship was handled well after a grounding - for example, after HMS Nottingham hit Wolf Rock off Lord Howe, the Royal Navy spokesman said it was "in good hands", that the ship would being handled with "great professionalism" and the captain was praised for "tenacity, courage and leadership" after the ship went aground. When the US minesweeper Guardian was lost on a charted shoal, the crew was criticised for running it aground but praised for their "heroic" actions afterwards.

The simple truth is that men who run ships aground can be praised for their actions afterwards, so it's perfectly reasonable to praise a women who runs a ship aground for her actions afterwards. It is sexist nonsense to complain when women get praised when men in the same situation have been praised without complaint.

If you don't like copping "ageist slurs" then perhaps you shouldn't insult others - or do you think you have the right to throw insults but are somehow protected from getting criticism in return?

Oh, and since our information from ECS directly contradicts your claims and ECS has been in the navy doing the job the RNZN ship was on at the time of the loss, surely any reasonable person would accept that ECS is far more aware of this sort of situation than you are and therefore you could learn from them rather than sling insults.

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MorningBird said..

Achernar said..
According to Patrick O'Brien's "Master and Commander" series (yeah, its fiction, but it seems authentic), the Captain is Court Martialed whenever he loses a ship. I suppose they call it a Board of Inquiry, now.

It is fiction!

Is it not the ultimate responsibility for the Captain to go down with the Ship ?

I must have pocket posted above while the phone was bouncing around on the motor bike.