Though i am not a fan of insurance it seems increasingly
Obvious that all the marine insurance companies are in cahoots , mainly the clause prove your rigging is less than ten years old.
What a farce rigging can easily handle 20 years and lots have sailed on yachts with very old rigging do a Stirling job, so they charge us a premium but refuse to take the risk.
Then the great ripoff you have to be insured to get into a marina, and if something happens you have to claim on your insurance even though the marina has to be fully insured to be in business , try that with the removialist oh sorry broke your gear but claim it on your insurance .
IMHO third party should be standard on all registrations,
I can't believe that so many vessels are uninsured in any way and can drag sail , motor into your expensive boat and you have no recourse because you can't get blood from a stone.
And the last but not least the poor Sod who has paid for market value and payed the premium on a figure in his head only to find the insurance company has a whole different market value but take your money anyway.
Surely there is enough of us to make the insurance companies to take note.
Select to expand quoteBROWNSMTRACE said..
Though i am not a fan of insurance it seems increasingly
Obvious that all the marine insurance companies are in cahoots , mainly the clause prove your rigging is less than ten years old.
What a farce rigging can easily handle 20 years and lots have sailed on yachts with very old rigging do a Stirling job, so they charge us a premium but refuse to take the risk.
Then the great ripoff you have to be insured to get into a marina, and if something happens you have to claim on your insurance even though the marina has to be fully insured to be in business , try that with the removialist oh sorry broke your gear but claim it on your insurance .
IMHO third party should be standard on all registrations,
I can't believe that so many vessels are uninsured in any way and can drag sail , motor into your expensive boat and you have no recourse because you can't get blood from a stone.
And the last but not least the poor Sod who has paid for market value and payed the premium on a figure in his head only to find the insurance company has a whole different market value but take your money anyway.
Surely there is enough of us to make the insurance companies to take note.
Even when they are insured and on a mooring only 6 months old and drag into you and do thousands of dollars damage the effing insurance company wouldn't pay. Been there done that!!
Select to expand quoteUncleBob said..BROWNSMTRACE said..
Though i am not a fan of insurance it seems increasingly
Obvious that all the marine insurance companies are in cahoots , mainly the clause prove your rigging is less than ten years old.
What a farce rigging can easily handle 20 years and lots have sailed on yachts with very old rigging do a Stirling job, so they charge us a premium but refuse to take the risk.
Then the great ripoff you have to be insured to get into a marina, and if something happens you have to claim on your insurance even though the marina has to be fully insured to be in business , try that with the removialist oh sorry broke your gear but claim it on your insurance .
IMHO third party should be standard on all registrations,
I can't believe that so many vessels are uninsured in any way and can drag sail , motor into your expensive boat and you have no recourse because you can't get blood from a stone.
And the last but not least the poor Sod who has paid for market value and payed the premium on a figure in his head only to find the insurance company has a whole different market value but take your money anyway.
Surely there is enough of us to make the insurance companies to take note.
Even when they are insured and on a mooring only 6 months old and drag into you and do thousands of dollars damage the effing insurance company wouldn't pay. Been there done that!!
I was on a commercial mooring and so was the other vessel. He dragged and hit me . Had to claim on my own insurance.
Er, the insurance companies don't require that you have insurance to enter a marina, the marina does. It's perfectly sensible really, if you total the marina gear, they need to be able to get reimbursed. If they allowed uninsured boats, marina fees would have to increase to pay the larger premiums and uninsured costs.
Third party cover is a must have anyway. Hit some thing expensive and your house and all your assets are on the line.
Cheers
Bristol
P.s. competition law prevents insurers being "in cahoots"
Yeah and competition laws stop petrol companies from setting the price of fuel... :(
Boat insurance is like car insurance, if anything happens whether you are in the rite or wrong, you make a claim to your insurance company and you get paid. If the insurance company thinks you are in the rite they will try and recover their money from the outer party. All you pay is your excess. I have just negotiated my insurance for the next 2 years for an agreed value. In my opinion Market Value is not on as it will only lead to an argument if you have a claim.
In my case what is market value of my boat.? If I was to put it on the market here, you would probably list it at $700.000.00 to $800,000.00 but in reality if I lost the boat and I wanted to replace it with another 4 year old Hanse 575, I would have to purchase one from overseas, pay for freight to Australia, pay GST.(4 year old equivalent boat and not a ex character boat) $800,000.00 + freight $75,000.00 + gst $80,000.00 + sundry expenses, travel to view boat $20,000.00.
Total cost to replace like for like ( old for new) $975,000.00 In my opinion $975,000.00 is the market value of a 4 year old Hanse 575 if you want one in Australia. The original purchase price was about $1.2m
You can see from this where arguments would start with market value over agreed value.
PS. I got several prices and the variation of prices and conditions was enormous. Prices ranged between $5k and $10k. One company wanted $2k extra if I carried a spinnaker and could not do a race over 25km. The excess costs also veried considerably. At the end of the day i brokered the deal with my existing company which I am happy with and covers me for my needs.
Well Jethrow, I can't comment on the fuel supply industry, but I did work in the insurance industry for a long time in senior roles. We were very aware of our responsibilities under competition law. Latterly, as a "Responsible Officer" I was very aware as I could be personally fined, banned from working or jailed!
Select to expand quoteJode5 said..
Boat insurance is like car insurance, if anything happens whether you are in the rite or wrong, you make a claim to your insurance company and you get paid. If the insurance company thinks you are in the rite they will try and recover their money from the outer party. All you pay is your excess. I have just negotiated my insurance for the next 2 years for an agreed value. In my opinion Market Value is not on as it will only lead to an argument if you have a claim.
In my case what is market value of my boat.? If I was to put it on the market here, you would probably list it at $700.000.00 to $800,000.00 but in reality if I lost the boat and I wanted to replace it with another 4 year old Hanse 575, I would have to purchase one from overseas, pay for freight to Australia, pay GST.(4 year old equivalent boat and not a ex character boat) $800,000.00 + freight $75,000.00 + gst $80,000.00 + sundry expenses, travel to view boat $20,000.00.
Total cost to replace like for like ( old for new) $975,000.00 In my opinion $975,000.00 is the market value of a 4 year old Hanse 575 if you want one in Australia. The original purchase price was about $1.2m
You can see from this where arguments would start with market value over agreed value.
PS. I got several prices and the variation of prices and conditions was enormous. Prices ranged between $5k and $10k. One company wanted $2k extra if I carried a spinnaker and could not do a race over 25km. The excess costs also veried considerably. At the end of the day i brokered the deal with my existing company which I am happy with and covers me for my needs.
With reference to the car insurance analogy, my son was recently involved in an accident which was not his fault, car a write off and the other party's insurance paid out in full along with all associated incidentals. No claim was made against his policy, only the other party.
Perhaps the point is that not all insurance companies are equal. 
Select to expand quoteUncleBob said..Jode5 said..
Boat insurance is like car insurance, if anything happens whether you are in the rite or wrong, you make a claim to your insurance company and you get paid. If the insurance company thinks you are in the rite they will try and recover their money from the outer party. All you pay is your excess. I have just negotiated my insurance for the next 2 years for an agreed value. In my opinion Market Value is not on as it will only lead to an argument if you have a claim.
In my case what is market value of my boat.? If I was to put it on the market here, you would probably list it at $700.000.00 to $800,000.00 but in reality if I lost the boat and I wanted to replace it with another 4 year old Hanse 575, I would have to purchase one from overseas, pay for freight to Australia, pay GST.(4 year old equivalent boat and not a ex character boat) $800,000.00 + freight $75,000.00 + gst $80,000.00 + sundry expenses, travel to view boat $20,000.00.
Total cost to replace like for like ( old for new) $975,000.00 In my opinion $975,000.00 is the market value of a 4 year old Hanse 575 if you want one in Australia. The original purchase price was about $1.2m
You can see from this where arguments would start with market value over agreed value.
PS. I got several prices and the variation of prices and conditions was enormous. Prices ranged between $5k and $10k. One company wanted $2k extra if I carried a spinnaker and could not do a race over 25km. The excess costs also veried considerably. At the end of the day i brokered the deal with my existing company which I am happy with and covers me for my needs.
With reference to the car insurance analogy, my son was recently involved in an accident which was not his fault, car a write off and the other party's insurance paid out in full along with all associated incidentals. No claim was made against his policy, only the other party.
Perhaps the point is that not all insurance companies are equal.
That is totally correct where you are totally in the rite. All it takes is a letter of demand to the other party. This is the same for boat insurance. If you are totally in rite and you go through your own insurance company they should also recover you excess as well and refund you. You are actually better off going the other party direct if you can as insurance companies still record it as an accident and it stays on you record as I found out with my car insurance.
what a totally devicive subject insurance is.
Our yacht club marina wanted not the standard 10mil public liability but double that. Most insurance companies wont even look at that, only one I found did it happy for very little premium increase.
As for value, like my car, only ever agreed value.
The rest, standing rigging age, running backstays, moorings etc etc etc ... guess they have to minimise their exposure to risk too.
Select to expand quoteJode5 said..UncleBob said..Jode5 said..
Boat insurance is like car insurance, if anything happens whether you are in the rite or wrong, you make a claim to your insurance company and you get paid. If the insurance company thinks you are in the rite they will try and recover their money from the outer party. All you pay is your excess. I have just negotiated my insurance for the next 2 years for an agreed value. In my opinion Market Value is not on as it will only lead to an argument if you have a claim.
In my case what is market value of my boat.? If I was to put it on the market here, you would probably list it at $700.000.00 to $800,000.00 but in reality if I lost the boat and I wanted to replace it with another 4 year old Hanse 575, I would have to purchase one from overseas, pay for freight to Australia, pay GST.(4 year old equivalent boat and not a ex character boat) $800,000.00 + freight $75,000.00 + gst $80,000.00 + sundry expenses, travel to view boat $20,000.00.
Total cost to replace like for like ( old for new) $975,000.00 In my opinion $975,000.00 is the market value of a 4 year old Hanse 575 if you want one in Australia. The original purchase price was about $1.2m
You can see from this where arguments would start with market value over agreed value.
PS. I got several prices and the variation of prices and conditions was enormous. Prices ranged between $5k and $10k. One company wanted $2k extra if I carried a spinnaker and could not do a race over 25km. The excess costs also veried considerably. At the end of the day i brokered the deal with my existing company which I am happy with and covers me for my needs.
With reference to the car insurance analogy, my son was recently involved in an accident which was not his fault, car a write off and the other party's insurance paid out in full along with all associated incidentals. No claim was made against his policy, only the other party.
Perhaps the point is that not all insurance companies are equal.
That is totally correct where you are totally in the rite. All it takes is a letter of demand to the other party. This is the same for boat insurance. If you are totally in rite and you go through your own insurance company they should also recover you excess as well and refund you. You are actually better off going the other party direct if you can as insurance companies still record it as an accident and it stays on you record as I found out with my car insurance.
Oh how I wished this was true of all insurance companies. The incident that I experienced was a 50 foot steel cruiser breaking free of its less than 6 month old mooring in a storm and hitting my boat. Damage done came to approx $3700.00, Club Marine assessed the damage and then eventually denied the claim, providing me with a phone number and contact name if I wished to appeal the decision. The contact, Alistair Leaper, never ever answered the phone or returned missed calls, I came to the conclusion that they simply gave that name to the office answering machine, working on the principle that if ignored long enough the complainant would simply go away. This I duly did, not wanting the frustration and agro. I do know that at least two others have decided that their insurance dollar can be more wisely spent elsewhere, I guess resulting in a nett loss to this company. As I said earlier, not all insurance companies are created equal.
I complain and bitch about the premium I have to pay but must admit having total cover as well as public liability does give peace of mind.
However the above has raised a question.
Does this mean as a crew or visitor on a boat which carries no insurance whatsoever your only recourse is to sue the owner in case of injury.
(Not talking about racing).
Select to expand quoteUncleBob said..Jode5 said..UncleBob said..Jode5 said..
Boat insurance is like car insurance, if anything happens whether you are in the rite or wrong, you make a claim to your insurance company and you get paid. If the insurance company thinks you are in the rite they will try and recover their money from the outer party. All you pay is your excess. I have just negotiated my insurance for the next 2 years for an agreed value. In my opinion Market Value is not on as it will only lead to an argument if you have a claim.
In my case what is market value of my boat.? If I was to put it on the market here, you would probably list it at $700.000.00 to $800,000.00 but in reality if I lost the boat and I wanted to replace it with another 4 year old Hanse 575, I would have to purchase one from overseas, pay for freight to Australia, pay GST.(4 year old equivalent boat and not a ex character boat) $800,000.00 + freight $75,000.00 + gst $80,000.00 + sundry expenses, travel to view boat $20,000.00.
Total cost to replace like for like ( old for new) $975,000.00 In my opinion $975,000.00 is the market value of a 4 year old Hanse 575 if you want one in Australia. The original purchase price was about $1.2m
You can see from this where arguments would start with market value over agreed value.
PS. I got several prices and the variation of prices and conditions was enormous. Prices ranged between $5k and $10k. One company wanted $2k extra if I carried a spinnaker and could not do a race over 25km. The excess costs also veried considerably. At the end of the day i brokered the deal with my existing company which I am happy with and covers me for my needs.
With reference to the car insurance analogy, my son was recently involved in an accident which was not his fault, car a write off and the other party's insurance paid out in full along with all associated incidentals. No claim was made against his policy, only the other party.
Perhaps the point is that not all insurance companies are equal.
That is totally correct where you are totally in the rite. All it takes is a letter of demand to the other party. This is the same for boat insurance. If you are totally in rite and you go through your own insurance company they should also recover you excess as well and refund you. You are actually better off going the other party direct if you can as insurance companies still record it as an accident and it stays on you record as I found out with my car insurance.
Oh how I wished this was true of all insurance companies. The incident that I experienced was a 50 foot steel cruiser breaking free of its less than 6 month old mooring in a storm and hitting my boat. Damage done came to approx $3700.00, Club Marine assessed the damage and then eventually denied the claim, providing me with a phone number and contact name if I wished to appeal the decision. The contact, Alistair Leaper, never ever answered the phone or returned missed calls, I came to the conclusion that they simply gave that name to the office answering machine, working on the principle that if ignored long enough the complainant would simply go away. This I duly did, not wanting the frustration and agro. I do know that at least two others have decided that their insurance dollar can be more wisely spent elsewhere, I guess resulting in a nett loss to this company. As I said earlier, not all insurance companies are created equal.
I had the oppisite (ie good) experience with Club Marine. Had another yacht crash into me during a race and did $4,000 damage, Club Marine paid no problems. Then 9 months later I discovered leaks in the windows caused by the accident and after a bit of an arguement proving that it was caused by the crash Club Marine have now approved the window repairs. Now just waiting for the rain to stop so the repairs can get under way. All this done on the other parties policy and I did not even have to pay the excess. Have also just received my renewal from Club Marine and the premium is the same as last year.
Ilenart
Select to expand quoteUncleBob said..Jode5 said..UncleBob said..Jode5 said..
Boat insurance is like car insurance, if anything happens whether you are in the rite or wrong, you make a claim to your insurance company and you get paid. If the insurance company thinks you are in the rite they will try and recover their money from the outer party. All you pay is your excess. I have just negotiated my insurance for the next 2 years for an agreed value. In my opinion Market Value is not on as it will only lead to an argument if you have a claim.
In my case what is market value of my boat.? If I was to put it on the market here, you would probably list it at $700.000.00 to $800,000.00 but in reality if I lost the boat and I wanted to replace it with another 4 year old Hanse 575, I would have to purchase one from overseas, pay for freight to Australia, pay GST.(4 year old equivalent boat and not a ex character boat) $800,000.00 + freight $75,000.00 + gst $80,000.00 + sundry expenses, travel to view boat $20,000.00.
Total cost to replace like for like ( old for new) $975,000.00 In my opinion $975,000.00 is the market value of a 4 year old Hanse 575 if you want one in Australia. The original purchase price was about $1.2m
You can see from this where arguments would start with market value over agreed value.
PS. I got several prices and the variation of prices and conditions was enormous. Prices ranged between $5k and $10k. One company wanted $2k extra if I carried a spinnaker and could not do a race over 25km. The excess costs also veried considerably. At the end of the day i brokered the deal with my existing company which I am happy with and covers me for my needs.
With reference to the car insurance analogy, my son was recently involved in an accident which was not his fault, car a write off and the other party's insurance paid out in full along with all associated incidentals. No claim was made against his policy, only the other party.
Perhaps the point is that not all insurance companies are equal.
That is totally correct where you are totally in the rite. All it takes is a letter of demand to the other party. This is the same for boat insurance. If you are totally in rite and you go through your own insurance company they should also recover you excess as well and refund you. You are actually better off going the other party direct if you can as insurance companies still record it as an accident and it stays on you record as I found out with my car insurance.
Oh how I wished this was true of all insurance companies. The incident that I experienced was a 50 foot steel cruiser breaking free of its less than 6 month old mooring in a storm and hitting my boat. Damage done came to approx $3700.00, Club Marine assessed the damage and then eventually denied the claim, providing me with a phone number and contact name if I wished to appeal the decision. The contact, Alistair Leaper, never ever answered the phone or returned missed calls, I came to the conclusion that they simply gave that name to the office answering machine, working on the principle that if ignored long enough the complainant would simply go away. This I duly did, not wanting the frustration and agro. I do know that at least two others have decided that their insurance dollar can be more wisely spent elsewhere, I guess resulting in a nett loss to this company. As I said earlier, not all insurance companies are created equal.
Bob, something not stacking here, there must be a reason they denied it. If not I would take it directly to the Onbudsman.
Yep, Bob, take it to the Ombudsman. I took QBE to the Ombo and got a reasonable payout. It was a very frustrating experience until I went to the Ombo and then it was plain sailing.
QBE were terrible to deal with. The same biased, incompetent and unprofessional surveyor is currently trying to mess around with a mate and his insurer, Club Marine.
I was insured with youi for agreed value of $30000 was paying $102 a month, with $2500 excess.
New policy went up to $187 a month absolutely nothing has changed with policy. Had to ring them and ask why such a big jump over 80% increase. There excuse was blah blah blah underwriter blah blah. So now not insured
I just renewed with Pantaenius, $1002 for the S&S agreed value $65,000. I would only get that in a total loss.
It is a scam in my view but I can afford it and the boat is on Sydney harbour so a bit riskier than where it was before.
Yes I have some misgivings about comprehensive cover, especially when premiums jump up with no claims having been lodged. Presume many owners just stay to avoid the hassle of possible new surveys etc.
Public Liability Insurance - anybody knows an insurer that does this routinely for yachts on a mooring?
Select to expand quoteKarsten said..
Yes I have some misgivings about comprehensive cover, especially when premiums jump up with no claims having been lodged. Presume many owners just stay to avoid the hassle of possible new surveys etc.
Public Liability Insurance - anybody knows an insurer that does this routinely for yachts on a mooring?
FWIW I used APIA, assuming you are of a more mature age :-) About $130 I think. Very friendly older person on the other end of the phone.
Tim
I don't think insurance is a scam. When I did about 14K worth of damage to one of my boats I was glad to have had it. Its up to your own risk profile...
Apia don't insure moored vessels, only boats kept on trailers on land, I was told by them
Select to expand quoteBlueMoon said..
Apia don't insure moored vessels, only boats kept on trailers on land, I was told by them
Weird. I discussed where it was moored and all relevant details. I'll check.
Tim
Select to expand quotePurfler said..BlueMoon said..
Apia don't insure moored vessels, only boats kept on trailers on land, I was told by them
Weird. I discussed where it was moored and all relevant details. I'll check.
Tim
From the certificate of insurance:
"It is permanently moored and not at a marina"
Seems pretty clear they knew what they were insuring.
Tim
Select to expand quotePurfler said..Purfler said..BlueMoon said..
Apia don't insure moored vessels, only boats kept on trailers on land, I was told by them
Weird. I discussed where it was moored and all relevant details. I'll check.
Tim
From the certificate of insurance:
"It is permanently moored and not at a marina"
Seems pretty clear they knew what they were insuring.
Tim
Was this for third party or full comprehensive.
Select to expand quoteBlueMoon said..
Apia don't insure moored vessels, only boats kept on trailers on land, I was told by them
I'm insured with Apia. It all depends where your mooring is. Apia cancelled it a couple of years ago then changed their minds and chased me up. Some moorings would be safer than having a boat on a trailer parked on the road in Sydney.
Select to expand quoteToph said..
I don't think insurance is a scam. When I did about 14K worth of damage to one of my boats I was glad to have had it. Its up to your own risk profile...
I believe it to be a scam because the actual risk is only about 20% of the premium. I did a lot of consulting in the insurance and reinsurance broking industry and found commissions gobble up between 30-50% of the premium. Remuneration in the industry is high relative to other industries, noting insurance work doesn't generally require trade or tertiary quals.
An industry that uses approx 80% of revenue to feed itself is in my view a scam. In my view it preys on people's fears.
That doesn't mean it isn't an option for those who need to cover very high consequence risks, even if they are very low probability. I was hoping the Royal Commission was going to 'fix' the industry.
I have found NRMA good to deal with but I haven't had a claim.
I am covered for $30000 comprehensive plus $10,000,000 p/l
I am also covered for racing.
I will put more time into what I am covered for before the next renewal.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..Toph said..
I don't think insurance is a scam. When I did about 14K worth of damage to one of my boats I was glad to have had it. Its up to your own risk profile...
I believe it to be a scam because the actual risk is only about 20% of the premium. I did a lot of consulting in the insurance and reinsurance broking industry and found commissions gobble up between 30-50% of the premium. Remuneration in the industry is high relative to other industries, noting insurance work doesn't generally require trade or tertiary quals.
An industry that uses approx 80% of revenue to feed itself is in my view a scam. In my view it preys on people's fears.
That doesn't mean it isn't an option for those who need to cover very high consequence risks, even if they are very low probability. I was hoping the Royal Commission was going to 'fix' the industry.
Morningbird very well said
Select to expand quoteBananabender said..Purfler said..Purfler said..BlueMoon said..
Apia don't insure moored vessels, only boats kept on trailers on land, I was told by them
Weird. I discussed where it was moored and all relevant details. I'll check.
Tim
From the certificate of insurance:
"It is permanently moored and not at a marina"
Seems pretty clear they knew what they were insuring.
Tim
Was this for third party or full comprehensive.
Third party - not worth doing anything else with Patsy.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..
I believe it to be a scam because the actual risk is only about 20% of the premium. I did a lot of consulting in the insurance and reinsurance broking industry and found commissions gobble up between 30-50% of the premium. Remuneration in the industry is high relative to other industries, noting insurance work doesn't generally require trade or tertiary quals.
An industry that uses approx 80% of revenue to feed itself is in my view a scam. In my view it preys on people's fears.
That doesn't mean it isn't an option for those who need to cover very high consequence risks, even if they are very low probability. I was hoping the Royal Commission was going to 'fix' the industry.
A rort maybe, over priced -yes, and definitely a weasel industry that has stacked the odds in their favour (as you would expect to some degree from a business with various stakeholders). But it is not a scam (Ok I may be a little pedantic with the wording here).
I don't like having to pay insurance (although it has paid off for me and I am sure many others), but unfortunately to me, it is a necessary evil. You can be the most experience, conservative sailor who will never have an incident, but we call all agree that there are many d@#khead bogans out there with no clue and a belly full of p!ss and guaranteed no insurance. What happens if one of them run into you? Here in WA I think rego (assuming its registered) will cover injury and death, but not damage to your boat. How are you gong to repair your boat when you can't squeeze blood from a stone?
