Bow to or Stern to....

The boat's shape is streamlined from the bow so logic says it will make less leeway and ride better if drogued from the bow.

The counter argument to that is that this will risk severe damage to the rudder especially if it is not securely lashed.

The other alternative is to lash the helm fully to one side and lay ahull which is akin to heaving to but under bare poles.

No matter which way you go they are all dependant on how much leeward sea room you have.

Oh, a whole lot of points here..

Boats are generally built to go forwards into the weather rather than backwards. A wave filling the cockpit from aft could quickly be followed by another; this same wave might pass quietly over the bow and the water roll off the side decks.

It is worth too mentioning that the only times (3) the design that I have and sail most often has been rolled has been with no sail up, and thus no method of quickly avoiding a bigger-than-normal sea. The boat heaves to very well (heavier displacement Cole design) so I prefer to do that rather than try to run with it, or to try to lie under bare poles. Having enough sea room isn't always the case, so gentle fore-reaching while hove to saves either getting too close to the rocky stuff, or losing hard-earned ground.

If you persist with the drogue idea, where are your strongest cleats? Don't overlook the likely loading, even with some form of snubbing device. Having a cleat forcibly removed would add an unwelcome distraction, even if the subsequent hole in the deck wasn't large.

Interesting to note that RNJ and others of that generation were great proponents of towing warps to slow themselves down in heavy weather, mostly to stop being pitchpoled. They were heavy displacement full keel hulls. RNJ describes in one of his books about it taking three days (in his exhausted post-storm state) to pull the tangle of warps back on board again.

It does depend on your hull shape too - a modern racer design with a narrow deep keel and bulb is unlikely to heave to well if at all; that same design is also unlikely to have cleats capable of taking the loads imposed by a drogue. But, correspondingly, that same design with little drag would probably be safest running with the storm under a storm jib.

Finally, it depends on how many good helmspeople you have, especially at night; even fully crewed you reach a point with tiredness and potentially seasickness that it just gets too hard to steer the boat. And most autopilots will have long passed the limits of their capabilities. At that stage, anything is better than the person steering losing concentration and rolling the boat off a wave.

Short answer then is that you need to try different ideas before that Force 10 arrives, and have a game plan to deal with it along with a second or third option if the first doesn't work. If I absolutely had to tow a drogue it would be from the bow, but your mileage may vary!

Hi Sam
I agree with Syd gentle fore-reaching or heaving to is the is the way to go. You should be able to sail into some pretty strong winds and big seas in a well founded boat as long as you have a deep third reef or you have decided to hoist a tri-sail long before it starts getting hairy. Force 10 would not be a problem and I wouldn't be pulling all my sails down until it got much windier or if the forecast was for winds approaching hurricane force.

Once it gets too much for a triple reefed main then you could drop it completely, (which would be a fun exercise if you didn't have lazy jacks and a boom bag) and, providing you have enough sea room tow a drogue and run before it. Jon Sanders reckons an old car tyre with some chain attached is good enough.

I wouldn't hang anything off the bow if I could possibley get away with not doing it. Mainly because its no fun up there when the foredeck drops away and you're hoping that you will land back on the deck rather than over the side. Practicing all that in relatively calm waters is useful and good to do, but in reality the biggest risk in extreme weather is getting washed off the boat.

Thats my 2 cents worth

It really depends on what sort of boat and whether your drogue is a drogue or sea anchor. We did a lot of planning and research on this question for a long trip on a Hanse 400. We had a drogue that we prepared a bridle and 100m of line for, it slowed the boat down dramatically but didnt by any means stop it (a parachute anchor may have) . We decided to stream the drogue from the stern and run slowly before the weather using the drogue to stop surfing and potential pitchpoling and to give directional stability to stop broaching.
We felt that streaming it from the bow would have caused us to be running astern at medium speed which would be very unstable.

However different yachts and different parachuts / drogues work differently, It is well worth trying it out!!!!

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samsturdy said..
Thanks for your two cents worth Andy. You can certainly pick holes in the scenario because I have absolutely
no experience sailing outside of Pittwater, but I'm still interested in the dynamics of what can and can't be done.
Syd raised the question of rudder damage. I have a fin keel and a spade rudder so would my boat be more prone
to rudder damage taking a storm stern on than another type, such as a keel hung or skeg hung rudder ??.

No problem Sam its only my opinion, even though I have done a long voyage I still wouldn't have as much knowledge as other people on here.
I think your rudder would be safest running before the storm and streaming the drogue astern. But like Black Swan said a parachute anchor would slow the boat much more and would reduce the chances of damage if streamed from the bow. I guess spade rudders are inherently less robust than keel or spade hung rudders, all other things being equal.
Having said that my new boat has a spade rudder and I'm quite comfortable with it for ocean sailing.

I've never sailed in those conditions but Ed Psaltis, Skipper of the 98 Sydney to Hobart winner, Midnight Rambler is an advocate of 60 degrees into the wind for "light displacement boats" to avoid end over end. Somewhere there is a video of him talking about storm management at a cyca event - its an excellent talk. I guess it works well when you have a fully crewed boat, not sure how well it works for a short handed sailor. Have to make sure you can get the storm sails up early and the self steering works well.

Read more at www.mysailing.com.au/news/australia-s-10-greatest-sailing-achievements-no-6-afr-midnight-rambler#2CJQvqSy3Oq71wQB.99 .

......If he steered straight up the swell, the boat would stall and be flipped backwards. If he steered at right-angles, it would be rolled through 360 degrees, breaking the mast and possibly sending Rambler to the bottom. He later related how he maintained a mantra throughout the night. As he felt the bow start to lift he would chant to himself, "60 degrees Ed, 60 degrees." Drenched by the horizontal spray and waves that broke over her, and freezing in the southerly winds that were straight off the Antarctic, he stayed at his post until sunrise, never thinking further ahead than the next wave. A

Also never going to get a nice northeaster before a big front.
The same weather mechanism drives both.
Then it depends on which part of the coast ie how much set influences decisions.
For instance going to sea east of Smoky with a really big front means you are going to die anyway given the amount of set.
There is youtube clip taken by a mate aboard Yendys well east of Coffs in a Sydney Southport and out in the set.
Check it out.
The boat is 55 feet long and is looking like a laser.

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lydia said..
Also never going to get a nice northeaster before a big front.
The same weather mechanism drives both.
Then it depends on which part of the coast ie how much set influences decisions.
For instance going to sea east of Smoky with a really big front means you are going to die anyway given the amount of set.
There is youtube clip taken by a mate aboard Yendys well east of Coffs in a Sydney Southport and out in the set.
Check it out.
The boat is 55 feet long and is looking like a laser.

You mean this one?? Memorable for me as it gives you a good idea of the size of the swell.
Check out 21 secs in for the time poor.

Shaggs, there is another one with less pic quality no sound track but great waves

Really depends on the boat and the setup which is the best advice.

If this was in my 20 footer I would be heading for safe harbour at all costs, if that doesn't work look for where the storm will be weakest and heading there, you can try and out run it so it will fizzle out before it hits you, but if it looks like its building it may be better to turn around and try and head through it before it grows too big.

I got caught out in an force 12 last month in a Dufour 350. I recorded a max apparent wind speed on board of 75knots and measuring against the mast the waves were 10m+, I'm not an experienced sailor, but my experience for that yacht was heading down wind with it was far too unstable, I could not hold it straight and almost got thrown out a few times. Altering course, turning bow to waves resulted in the yacht sliding down the waves side wards with the mast touching the water on the leeward side, this was pretty scary and terrible for the engine which isn't suppose to be on more than a 15degree lean, again almost got thrown overboard. Eventually managed to turn into the waves, max sustainable revs bow to waves at 45 degrees was manageable, even the autopilot could handle that while I took shelter down below. Pointing any higher would cause me to drop too sharply off the back of the waves and a 0g astronaut feeling in the cabin before myself and everything else would come hammering back down to earth again. Motoring at 45 degrees into it my SOG was 1knot so the storm calmed again before I ran out of sea. Is this the right advice for everyone? Nope, in hindsight I would of in order:
1. Stayed in the harbour.
2. Dropped anchor.
3. Ensured I had storm sails/ drogue for bad weather and set them up heave to, additionally had a safety line the length of the yacht set up before I left the harbour, and everything locked away that could be a projectile.
4. Motored into it from the start with autopilot on and myself battened down below.

Good luck buddy, I hope it works out well for you.

The two videos are certainly showing some heavy weather but hardly dangerous or life threatening seas or winds.

The following literature is highly recommended:

Dashew: Surviving The Storm

Dashew: Marine Weather Handbook

Dashew: Practical Seamanship

Dashew: Offshore Cruising Enciclopedia

Andrew Ewans: Singlehanded Tips

All those books, 2000+ pages of nautical wisdom are freely available on the net as PDF's and they would take up little space on any phone.
I am flabbergasted, that not one of the esteemed members have mentioned them. It should be compulsory reading for any seafarer with common sense.

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Trek said..
I got the idea that the drogue works better if cast off the bow because the boat is more wave resistant when heading into seas but they are harder to put in and retrieve which is why some sailors say do it stern to and fasten to winches. ie. Safer for the crew since no foredeck work. Having a centre cockpit boat we are relatively safe from a wave filling the cockpit. Now Im confused

Streaming drogues and warps from the stern of a boat basically has the same effect as a tail on a simple kite. As wind increases, the longer the tail provides directional stability by dampening the overpowering effects of the wind so that the aerodynamic and trim properties of the kite can remain in control.
Take the tail off the kite on a windy day and it will probably spin violently out of control, similar to a boat being pushed around by the wind and swell.

Drogues should not be confused with sea anchors.

Ahhh so we're saying we dont want the boat pushed backwards down the waves which may break the rudder?

Sometimes its not possible to run for shelter. I think cats with blinding speed can but slow monos cant always, Halfway between Napier and Gisborne NZ on my RORC39 at the time a big southerly gale was approaching so we turned east to get out of its path and stay away from Portland Island lee shore doing 6 knots which was out best speed then the gale tuned east too and caught up with us anyway. Oops.

So am I right from the above - if we can dead stop the boat (as such) by hanging our drogue or sea anchor off the bow this is best because the boat can best handle waves off the bow and the rudder wont be damaged because we are not surfing backwards. However if we cant slow the boat enough we hang our drogue or sea anchor off the stern so the ruddder wont be damaged when the boat slowly goes downwind? Im trying to make a mental rule for myself

I have read a few reports of yachts streaming a sea anchor from the bow. I would not consider a sea anchor in any circumstances.

The boats lie 45 degrees (plus or minus 20 degrees) off the wind so the loads on the anchor are immense. If the anchor parts company from the boat, happens often, you are in deep poo. If it takes the cleat you also have a hole to contend with. You will inevitably be deploying the sea anchor once the wind has built, is that really wise as most of us don't have young fit crew to go forward to do it. How will you recover it after it has twisted and tangled.

Unless you go sailing in the tropics in cyclone season or in the Southern Ocean you are extremely unlikely to experience a sea/wind you can't run with. If necessary with a drogue to slow you down.

My and, from my reading, most offshore sailors preference is to use an active tactic in heavy seas and strong winds. If you can no longer sail or run, preferred, then I have heaved to on a number of occasions in strong winds/big seas and would do that rather than deploy a sea anchor. The S&S34 makes about 1.5 kts with about 30 degrees of leeway when heaved to in winds gusting to 50 kts. Even with a direct onshore wind you can make a small offshore track.

If your boat can't heave to maybe it isn't a suitable offshore cruising yacht.