Hi All,
Its been extremely quiet here for a while now. So in the spirit of keeping the community alive I'd like to ask what everyone is thinking about regarding land sailing?
What builds are people contemplating?
What events are people looking forward to/planning?
Any wish list items for sailing?
Essentially, just a social chat about land sailing 
I'll start with how much I wish I could get out sailing!!!! Last year I moved to a new town, repaying dept and don't have anywhere to store my gear. No where to build or store tools is crazy fun! In this time plans are being formulated, mostly around buying a vehicle so I get to sailing sites 
LOTS of sailing Lachlan, along with Greg we always have a ball.
We go out most afternoons if we can. It's only the wind that stops us.
Greg has helped me with his huge knowledge on sails and also composites with masts, to get me to where I am now. We made these rear wheels at his workshop. Greg is always arriving with sails he's been adjusting/modifying for a test run.
7.2m2 sail here on my mini and we run 4.5" x 26" fatbike tyres to get the floatation we need on our very soft lake. Change back to barrow tyres for racing. You can see how much we press into the soft surface in this pic.
Social distancing here.
Our yachts are now really suffering badly from metal fatigue and cracks are appearing in both ends of the mini chassis. I have done repairs on top of 3 previous repairs. Poor old girl is knackered. Mast mounts failing and my rear axle is laughable the amount of added steel bracing.
My current yacht above is now 5 years old so cant complain too much. Always had big rigs and carrying plenty of weight over really bad surfaces, it's stood up really well. (Your "Lake Lefroy Mini" design is a credit to you Landyacht 
)
Just hoping it will just last till the winter rains shut us down on Pink Lake.
Also hoping that our new 4.8" x 26" tyres arrive shortly in the post, as we are now running on air. This tyre has covered another 122 kms since this photo was taken.
I'm on the hunt for a 12.5m2 sail and a 2 piece 5500mm SDM mast (38 IMCS or better) for a winter project. Needs to be in West Aust as interstate freight is a killer and is almost non existent at the moment.
Stay safe everyone and catch you when the world staggers back onto it's feet.
strange that you posted chook. I've just rung kiter john chasing pond liner for a floorpan. with a ll the clearing out i unconsciously left enough materials around for one last mini out of my shed
The yachts that the esperance blokart assassins sail are screaming fast. gregs mini just goes like a smoothie.. and the boys sail with massive sails
Those big windsurf sails that twist off in the gusts take it to another level of fun especially for us that carry a bit of excess baggage
gregs don't twist off its just goes faster. I don't think their chassis could handle even the smallest gulley or ridge, but thats not what they sail on
Hey, it's good to see a little bit of life on this forum. A friend made a joke about me sailing my kayak up a hill, which prompted me to look up land yacht racing and now I'm building a Lefroy Mini. Haven't yet figured out where to go sailing near Adelaide when it's finished though.
Must be someone around Adelaide who can advise on this. Open area with reasonably hard surface is what is required.
Must be someone around Adelaide who can advise on this. Open area with reasonably hard surface is what is required.
Select to expand quoteHiko said..Must be someone around Adelaide who can advise on this. Open area with reasonably hard surface is what is required.
Beachball's got a few posts on here mentioning Goolwa, and a bunch of salt lakes around Yorketown. Looks like there was an event on a salt lake near Wellington near a skydiving place
Here's the crooked Mini I'm working on. Slow going; I'm a pretty bad welder and carpenter but we're getting there
As one dodgy welder to another ....... paint can hide an awful lot of dodgy-ness 
Select to expand quoteChook2 said..
That is looking fantastic Squidley.
Well done mate!!!!
I'd add a seat belt too.
Thanks, and oh yeah for sure I will. Guy I got some sails and a mast from said he knew a farmer that built one and immediately put himself in the hospital! Should be easy to find a lap belt at an auto wrecker.
At the moment I'm figuring out a good way to attach the seat back (it's just resting on the rear sprit(?) in the photo). There's probably some pics on this forum where that detail's visible.
drill a couple of holes and put a bit of 4mm rope around the steel.. maybe glue some rubber on the setback where it contacts the steel.
best sailing beach in SA gulf area would be port germain awesome beach
Select to expand quotelandyacht said..
drill a couple of holes and put a bit of 4mm rope around the steel.. maybe glue some rubber on the setback where it contacts the steel.
best sailing beach in SA gulf area would be port germain awesome beach
Before I read this I ended up making a pair of brackets screwed to the horizontal reinforcing I put on the back of the seat that sleeve over the rear sprit/(pulley whip?) but rubber padding in a few key spots is an idea I could use, cheers. Think I'll make a thread of the build.
Thanks for the tip about Port Germein too
did you find that big sail you where chasing chook ?
I think I still have a big severne formula sail laying around the shed somewhere.
a twelve I think.
p.m if interested
cheers ratz
Hey cheers for the yarn on the phone today Ratz.
Your a true champion!
My current yacht is buggered. Its patches on patches to get me through till our local Pink Lake got wet last month. (It cracked the mast mount again sailing at Lake Lefroy last weekend as well). The metal it totally fatigued.
I built it 11/12/2014 so it has covered some really hard kilometres......and endured some high speed spins/crashes.
I even got sick of painting the repairs.
The outer edge of the axle mount split as well and was covered with the next size up RHS tube to stop it flaring open any more. The mast mounts have be re-welded twice as well. The pipe spine split lengthwise at the rear too. (see the big "Jellybean weld" tying the two sides of the split back together. It has a full width 4mm thick flat bar doubler that stops just inward of the RHS sleeves over the ends of the axle receivers. This is welded right across the whole T-axle, I added it as a repair as well. 
I've got a new mini under construction and there will be some streamlining involved. (The reason the steering setup has been modified is to be all inside of the body).
The Lake Lefroy Mini is a fantastically simple design that is a real credit to Paul "Landyacht" who designed them.
This is my 26th modified mini yacht build and I haven't ever spent over AUS $650 on the materials of a yacht ready to sail. 
Heavily reinforced rear axle off the spine to carry the excessive heavy pilot. The welds were then flushed off and a full depth/width 4mm flat bar added.
20mm "4140 shafting" (I'm trying the stronger shaft as I have bent the 1040 shaft steering head shaft in a few crashes) machined up in my lathe, pressed into 25x25x3 RHS welded then fitted/plug welded into axles with 25mm x25mm x3mm wall, 330mm long internal doublers added where they are under the most pressure. (My 2mm ones were bending when I thrashed them).
This is the first yacht I've built that I fluked the perfect wheel alignment first go. I loaded the frame with 100kgs of exercise weights then checked it. No adjustment was needed and setup with only 1 degree of negative camber. We have proven this combination works best on hard surfaces. (1 degree each side, leaning in on the top of the rear tyres for low friction running).
Two mast positions as my previous yacht has, one in front of the steering pedals and a rear one behind to keep the yacht balanced with my small 5.6m2 high wind sail. Both mast bases angled back at 3 degrees are welded to the chassis.
Then the bolt on mast "stalks" that go up into the 48mm x 3mm x 350 mm long alloy pipe "strengthener" that are fitted inside my Standard Diameter windsurfer masts and retained by a singe countersunk machine screw.
This allows the mast, boom and heavily downhauled sail to rotate as the one unit. Note only the contact areas where the paint has rubbed off the stalk. These contact areas are 1mm larger in diameter than the rest of the 4140 hollow bar stalk for less friction.
The 4 gussets around the flanged base are simply built up with the welder.
See the big centre hole in the (middle item) stalk base, it is offset to the left to allow the 12mm socket head screws to be removed vertically with a sloping stalk. In this pic the stalk would be fitted with the top leaning to the right. The right hand item is the 12mm x 1.75 threaded, 75mm x 75mm x 16mm thick "flat bar" base, to be welded to the chassis at 3 degrees rearward rake.
The masts are raked at different angles (by a combination of reversing the stalks welded to their bolt on flanges at 2 degrees and 7 degrees on my 2nd one ) with these different combinations the rake is from 4 degrees forward for my 6100mm mast for my 9.5m2 sail. 5 degrees raked back and on the rear base for the smaller 5.6m2 sail. This balances the yachts center of effort nicely with these cheap windsurfer sails and masts on my old yacht. Previous yacht pic setup below. I've now shifted the rear mount back another 50mm for slightly better balance this time??
My 9.5m2 sail which is great in a light breeze.
These pics taken at Lake Lefroy. The best sailing surface in the world. 550 square kilometers of perfectly smooth salt. 
Now the body to build over winter when time permits.
I'm still on the hunt for a 5500mm Standard diameter windsurfer mast too.
Cheers Guys.
I recognise the Demon VG7 9.5 sail in the pic above as I use these on my raceboard. They are great sails.
How does it go for land yachting with high apparent wind?
In the earlier post above, you mentioned you are looking for a 12.5m sail. There are a few 12.5m formula sails going cheap in the second hand market now as Wind foiling killed the Formula race fleet. Although in Europe they are cutting the leach off their old Formula sails to make them higher aspect, and more suitable for the higher apparent winds experienced in foiling.
These Demon sails have a tighter leach and deeper cut than the Formula sails as they are designed to drive a longboard around a upwind/downwind course at lower apparent wind speeds than a formula or foil board.
azuli, I love the Demon 9.5. It's a light wind weapon.
The "downhaul adjustment/sail shape" is just phenomenal. It will belly out 450mm if needed. It beats sitting round waiting for wind.
Fully downhauled hard (we can adjust this on the run) it flattens it out to 150mm or less.
If the leaves are moving on the trees I'm into the yacht and gone. Usually achieve 3 to 4 times the measured wind speed. Measured with my Kestral 3000 (I use as a fire control officer. I'm an ex fire captain).
I'm using all hard battens too. (never tried the soft as it goes so well and changes sides easily anyway. I've extended the mast (Greg is a wizard at this. Thank you Greg. ) as we bottom mount them on the yachts.
Below Greg is setting the alloy mast strengthener into position with epoxy and flock and left to dry before building up the new extension bit with carbon. See how the original mast base has been tapered off for 50mm down to a needles edge against the alloy. The mast is sitting on a strip of wood so it can be rolled back and forth to true up the pipe.
To the left of the pic below, you can see the 450mm extension build up then all covered with 7 layers of unidirectional tapering down to 1 at the right edge of the photo. It's then a full cover of woven cloth all epoxied and taped over while rolling the mast on a cranked mandrel while applying the back side of 50mm wide sticky tape really tight, spiraling it along with a 45mm over lap to add LOTS of pressure. This is done because as bottom mounted the mast will flex/bend too much at the bottom 1/3 and buggers up the set of the sail.
It's then heated to 60 degrees for 7 hours to cure. The mast is supported on blocks in 3 places so as not to induce a curve. Temp is regulated by shifting the blow heater further away from the old cardboard sail box or restricting the outlet size. Pretty high tech eh?
The sail is standard except for the eyelet triangle and boom strap I added at the clew. goes really well in 5 knots of wind. It points really high once you get that apparent wind working. The wind never changed direction in my plot below and the whole salt area was as smooth as marble. Got to love Lake Lefroy. Kambalda West Aust.
Yes I saw a few big sails for sale in QLD. I'd love them, but the freight to Esperance WA would be as much as they are asking. 
Bit of a bugger that.
Cheers.
I like the post cure oven, I should make one of these for my epoxy/carbon projects.
Glad you didn't modify the foot of the Demon as the panel layouts are very specific for the sail shape.
One key design element is the load paths from head to clew, and tack to clew.
By moving the clew load point down foot below the batten, it may change the load path, and the leech may be a bit looser than original design.
Perhaps it's worth experimenting with a line from end of boom to the clew pulley to distribute some of the mainsheet load, it should tighten the leech a bit for light wind performance.
The soft battens have draft 10% further back towards centre of chord. They are best in < 10kns wind on raceboard, we switch to the stiff carbon battens in 15+kns as they are more stable in stronger winds.
Am interested to hear how the demon compares to the Neil Pryde RS Evo sails in the pics at top of page. I expect they need a bit more wind to get moving, but do they have better top end?
Select to expand quoteazuli said..
By moving the clew load point down foot below the batten, it may change the load path, and the leech may be a bit looser than original design.
Perhaps it's worth experimenting with a line from end of boom to the clew pulley to distribute some of the mainsheet load, it should tighten the leech a bit for light wind performance.
Hey I will certainly try that next outing thanks.Select to expand quoteazuli said..
The soft battens have draft 10% further back towards centre of chord. They are best in < 10kns wind on raceboard, we switch to the stiff carbon battens in 15+kns as they are more stable in stronger winds.
Well there you go I had no idea about that. It just worked well and I hadn't bothered to play with it. I'll now have to experiment and see if it shifts my center of effort too far back? Select to expand quoteazuli said..
Am interested to hear how the demon compares to the Neil Pryde RS Evo sails in the pics at top of page. I expect they need a bit more wind to get moving, but do they have better top end?
They certainly motor. The Demon only gets used in light winds so not really much of a comparison to be fair. All the Evo's (which now measure differently with the triangle added below there original clew) have had their leach adjusted for less twist-off when sheeted in HARD. Some times it takes a few goes unpicking the batten pockets overlapping the back 3/4's of the sail (leave the front 1/4 unchanged/ still stitched up))in a nice gentle curve and re-sewing/refitting the batten pockets to them to get it drum tight, as we use so much down haul.
You can let go of the sheet rope at very high speed (above 80kmh on my 5.8) and the sail will just sit there feathered with the wind, without a single flapping movement.
See the change in the diagonal black line up my 8m2 (7.8 + clew triangle) sail, where its been overlapped 30mm at the back on the 4th and 45mm on the 5th batten and it's changed the back of the leech slightly. It's a Severn 4600 25 IMCS hard top mast with an alloy mast extension on the top. Been re-enforced down at the base with 7 to 1 wraps of carbon up to where the windsurfer boom would sit too. 
Greg uses 36 to 1 down haul on his sails and it's adjustable on the run. His setup is much more easily adjusted than mine. My set up now being just off the base of the mast. I will change mine when the new yacht is rigged. I've got the second 6 to 1 sorted ready to go onto the end of the one that's already there now. Just have to re route it out my boom.
Greg has also cut the leech off a lot of his sails to increase the aspect ratio and boy do they handle well and point so high now. They go like blazes too. He eats me with my standard Evo's. He's consistently 10kmh faster than me. I'm usually 1.5m2 more sail than him, as I weigh 40kgs more.
Greg in his yacht below. (These are LL mini yachts that we just run 26" x 4.8" wide fatbike tyres on for floatation on our soft lake surface here in Esperance. We go back onto barrows for racing at Lefroy).
His cut sail and he's removed a few more wrinkles on the 5 batten since this was taken.
Sorry my photo editor and seabreeze dont love each other. Need a 1/4 turn sorry. My dumb thumbs eh.
Am impressed with the DIY development you guys are doing - nice job.
If there was a good flat place to land yacht near Brisbane, I would give it a go.
Greg's cut down sail looks fast and is similar aspect to the development that the new windfoil race sails are going through.
Seems that sail design for low drag, high speed sailing on land (wheels & ice) and water (with foils) is on a similar path.
Thanks azuli for the complement.
Yeh we are always altering our gear. We call it "riggin' and friggin", as we are always stuffing round trying to improve speed and pointing higher.
I'm taking in the leech here to reduce the twist off when fully sheeted in.
You can see the black texta line it will be overlapped up too.
I actuall re did it again after this, as the 20mm overlap indicated here wasn't to my liking when I rigged it up.
So I unpicked it all and changed it to 30mm on this batten. (If you look at the previous photo of this sail in the post above on the yacht, you can see I had to overlap up to the bottom of the letter "AUS".)
Sometimes it turns out to be a bigger job than expected but the results really shine and make it all worth while. Once this was done I altered the next batten up twice as well to get it to sit perfectly.(45mm overlap)
Sheeted in really tight with huge downhaul, then I was happy with it. 
All part of the fun to modify something and then go out and see if it works. We know a great deal about what doesn't work now......
Another little one (that started life as a huge one) by Greg.
Cheers.
thanks for the pics and explanation on sail mods, very interesting.
the leech looks much tighter in pic with cart on its side, should provide better performance than original floppy leach
the sail in the last pic looks like it would be a weapon with enough breeze.
what type of course do your race these on, upwind/downwind or reaching?
When racing the first mark is directly up wind and then where ever the commodore desires.
Some times the upwind is quite challenging.
If the wind is strong (we are travelling above 60kmh), we can really point into wind and hammer downwind.
When racing the course usually involves 5 marks like on a dice only going round the center mark once each lap.
With a bit of a breeze predicted for Bourke last weekend it was all stops out to try and break the 50 kilometre an hour barrier we have been stuck on the last couple of years. " Psycho Budgie " was finally completed after too long cluttering up the workshop. An LLM based on the aluminium mast of a gyrocopter as the spine with an 5mm wall thick aluminium 70 OD mast tube from the base of a 7m long radio antenna and aluminium body mount tabs cut from a broken excavator loading ramp. 3mm steel plate adaptors each end of the chassis attach to conventional steel LLM assemblies. When the two chassis were welded up (yes there is another one on the go) I had not come across the posts about the improvements to the LLM so the mast is way back. 8" Boat trailer wheels scrounged from various tips on axle stubs cut from trailer axles I have broken over the years. The seat is a thinner fibreglass mobile phone antenna front than I have used previously and whole body ended up noticeably lighter.
Psycho Budgie is the pink sailed yacht, Cool Bananas is the clear sailed yacht and Mud Skipper with a 4.0 green storm sail was the yacht the children had a ball on. .
Three on the go at once - a new record.
Psycho Budgie with high clearance rear axles.
Rear axle attachment
Front end attachment
A 6m Gaastra windsurfer sail and boom seemed to pull down to a pretty good shape on an old fibreglass mast. Whether it goes any better is unknown, variable winds, different sails, different weight pilots and a surface with a high rolling resistance made comparisions difficult. Our narrow farm track pointed further into the wind in one direction, it was a slow grind up into the wind then a high speed run back down. Certainly the pink 6.0 Gaastra was a lot fuller and pulled upwind far better than the mylar 6.8m Hot Sails Maui race. Down wind the Maui had the edge, kicking you back in the seat if a gust hit a few metres after taking off. Average top speed was similar on both of the big ones but peak top speed credits went to the clear sail. Usually in the high 30s with a top of 46.3 kph for the day. The average wind speed was between 15 and 17 knots with gusts to 25 knots as recorded at the Bourke airport a couple of kilometres away.
What was very apparent was the rolling resistance of the surface. Below a wind speed of about 10 knots I would stop moving (90kg weight) , my 75 kg neighbour left me behind then. 8 knots and he would stop but the kids kept rolling happily down to 5 knots. Above 16 knots things evened out between my neighbour and myself.
Kids running downwind, oldies heading upwind.
My neighbour in Cool Bananas getting air, a normal sight on the down wind run. Boom attachment to mast was a bit dodgy. All rigging was with Telstra rope. Until The final configuration is sorted I didn't want to cut up the good 6mm double braid. Note GPS in hand so we could prove our top speed.
Scrutineers checking wheel nuts on the minimum camber axle of Cool Bananas
Where we played, not a lot of choice for direction. prevailing wind was WSW so the 400m powerline track was our best line. Clearance between the wires overhead and us was 4 metres or more. Darling river in the lower left corner. Waiting for the next windy front to come through in a couple of weeks. Time to get cracking on the new chassis with the mast right at the front.
