hey ho bro's.
The creative juices are about to flow. So its time to build another mutant.
This one will be more big wave focused.
Hit me with your ideas.
Hey Plummet, off the subject but heading to queenstown NZ in July, being the NZ man, do you think it's worth pursuing a day snow kiting, and is queenstown good for the snowkiting?
Any info would be great mate
Cheers
Select to expand quoteste said..
Hey Plummet, off the subject but heading to queenstown NZ in July, being the NZ man, do you think it's worth pursuing a day snow kiting, and is queenstown good for the snowkiting?
Any info would be great mate
Cheers
Might be abit early. Check out snow farm.
I've been experimenting with my Underground Firebird mutant. It keeps going strong, despite half a dozen years of hard riding. I lost a fin from it that I've not been able to replace and I'm currently experimenting with alternative fin setups and have been pleasantly surprised at the results.
Almost out of desperation, I took an FCS fin, cut the tabs off, carefully drilled three holes into the fin and then used three triangle head phillips stainless screws on the top of the board through washers and lo and behold, it worked.
I've had it out for about half a dozen sessions now, and tried my best to see if I could knock the fin off but to no avail, it works great and actually noticeably better than the original fin -- probably because the original fin was fatter and had a symmetrical foil on it rather that as you'd expect on a surfboard. This one is also somewhat unusual
The fin manufacturer has since shipped some additional fins to me to try which should be arriving any day now.
My suggestion would be:
-- Directional with asymmetrical pad locations with rear foot position further toward the tail than a standard twintip
-- Pronounced double-concave bottom
-- Wood core with good flex
-- [VERY important] Make the front foot significantly ducked forward to about 45 degrees! [I don't know how anyone can ride a mutant with the front foot pad square!]
-- Forget front fins [if you can't ride toe-side you shouldn't be riding a mutant]
-- Make it able to accept surfboard fins or bolt on some like I did. It makes a big difference in how the board rides.
-- Put the fins on square -- no need for toe-in or splay. It will turn easily enough with the power of the kite.
-- Make it a twin-fin with side aux fins.
-- Make the side axillary fins asymmetrical as well and keep them as thin as possible to reduce drag.
I'll post some photos later and also put up a link to the fins I've been using. They are a bit different than the fins most surfers use with some significant differences that make them work better at speed.
I am laying one at the the moment taken the shinn surfboard template and scaled it down and modified it some what not sure how it will go but worth a shot. Will post some pics and performance progress as I go.
theres a whole world of board builders out there, you might want to check out some of theses boards and ideas www.boardbuilders.co/p/forum.html
Interesting ideas.
Just for a reference for you guys here is my current mutant. that I build a few years ago.
It will be similar to this with some improvements. My personal enjoyment is to ride it out through the waves backwards at full pace and boost. Then ride the 3 fin thruster end in the waves back.
HOLY CRAP!!
Wot's going on with that grass Mr Plummet?
Not as lush as I have seen it in the past..........
I've finally put my Shinn Wave out to pasture. The new Axis Twin Wave is a gem.
Full length double concaves and ample rocker make it easy in choppy conditions both ways. Tucked surfboard style rails making carving turns flow without biting too deep and catching. Highly recommend this template.
Sorry i'm letting the team down with my not lush enough grass! I think kit33r is out lushing me!!!!...
Yeah man one of the locals has one of those axis boards. I've looked at the tucked rails. Very nice.
Im not sure I can be arsed engineering a press with tucked rails for one board. It will be quite a challenge to do that.
Yah Plummet, the grass is going nuts at the moment. I made the mistake of feeding it.
Back to topic. The tucked rails make a big difference. I've only had the Axis in the surf once so far in less than ideal conditions so I can't give a decent review. Surfs been poor here too but I'm off down the coast for a week soon and hopefully some wave action.
On flat water in 25 knots it lays over really well in carving turns and releases without biting as you exit the turn, forehand and heelside. I've pushed it as hard as my feable body will allow and it is stable and predictable. Note the footstraps are set towards the back. I wish I had more options for fin placement but it is a production board. When I tried the demo board at Kitepower it had thick Axis footpads. Although they were soft and comfy I wanted more feel so I've fitted tradional surfboard deck pads. They are pretty hard and jaring but that's how I like it.
Good luck with your lawn. Dog pee is a killer.
^^ That Nobile Infinity looks good. Nice rails from what I can see in the photo. Axis make a similar board with thin deck and raised rails..http://axiskiteboarding.com/?page_id=53
The New Wave on the surf page.
Select to expand quotePlummet said..
hey ho bro's.
The creative juices are about to flow. So its time to build another mutant.
This one will be more big wave focused.
Hit me with your ideas.
Plummet, Im pretty new to kiting, but am just wondering why you wouldn't build yourself a longer surfboard for big waves?
A twin tip however well crafted just looks too short and edgy for bigger waves. Just a thought.
Yeah that's the other way to do it. I'm thinking a wrapped rail. Press the board first. then install a foam core rail and wrap glass/carbon around it.
Dave. I'm not on a surfboard for a variety of reasons. My primary focus is boosting off waves then riding them back in. TT style is better for that.
But I'm also enjoying the challenge of making something that surfs a wave well but also goes backwards.
Its an interesting challenge.
PS Axis is essentially Underground reborn into a new company.
A bit off topic here, But what kind of riding advantages does a mutant board have over a TT???
I have been reading about various people making mutant boards, and looking at your board Plummet you have got my creative juices running hahaha, wouldn't mind trying my hand at making one.
Select to expand quoteMaxiy said..
A bit off topic here, But what kind of riding advantages does a mutant board have over a TT???
I have been reading about various people making mutant boards, and looking at your board Plummet you have got my creative juices running hahaha, wouldn't mind trying my hand at making one.
Mutants do everything a TT does but are much better than a TT in small surf. They carve turns much better due to softer rails midship and big (3) fins at the back end. Mutants are very easy to ride toeside especially if you have a sliding hook to get the kite pulling from your hip rather than from the centre using a Dyna Bar or J bar set up. I have replaced the bar with a length of rope and a shackle.
They can be ridden both ways just like a TT. They are generally longer than most TTs and footstraps are set 60:40 to the rear instead of 50:50.
Select to expand quoteMaxiy said..
do they tend to have a significant light wind advantage over a TT???
Being a bit bigger than most TTs - the Axis Wave is 148 x 43 gets planing early. I think the Shinn Wave (146cm) , which has a wider tail planes earlier in lighten wind. It also has less rocker. At the other end of the scale, I had the Axis out in 25 - 30 knots and it's still very comfortable even when I was overpowered on my 8m Reo.
Select to expand quoteKIT33R said..Maxiy said..
A bit off topic here, But what kind of riding advantages does a mutant board have over a TT???
I have been reading about various people making mutant boards, and looking at your board Plummet you have got my creative juices running hahaha, wouldn't mind trying my hand at making one.
Mutants do everything a TT does but are much better than a TT in small surf. They carve turns much better due to softer rails midship and big (3) fins at the back end. Mutants are very easy to ride toeside especially if you have a sliding hook to get the kite pulling from your hip rather than from the centre using a Dyna Bar or J bar set up. I have replaced the bar with a length of rope and a shackle.
They can be ridden both ways just like a TT. They are generally longer than most TTs and footstraps are set 60:40 to the rear instead of 50:50.
Yes.
To ride a wave and get a sharp bottom turn going you need your feet close to the back of the board. Look at a surfboard. The rear foot is standing real close to the back. Couple this with 3 massive fins and you can hold a good edge and carve super tight. A TT with small fins and center set foot position cannot hold the same power in the turn or turn as sharp. Also when the wave a steep you have to shift your weight right back for the board not to nose dive......
So to make a TT style better in waves offset the footstraps further back add a 3 fin thruster set up and add more rocker at the front of the board to limit nose diving.
BUT. Too much offset foot position it rides like Shiite backwards. The board starts to nose dive and just feels wrong. Too center set and you cant get that tight turning that you want on the wave face.
Are Mutants better at light wind? I would say no. They are typically have more tappered rounded tips. This is better for chop and surf but worse for upwind/lightwind performance.
^
The Shinn was pretty good in light winds since it is wide with very little rocker throughout, flat bottom and NO tail rocker. The tail is flexible and bends under load in turns. It was a bugger to ride tail first in chop, something I'm not missing.
Select to expand quoteKIT33R said..
I've finally put my Shinn Wave out to pasture. The new Axis Twin Wave is a gem.
Full length double concaves and ample rocker make it easy in choppy conditions both ways. Tucked surfboard style rails making carving turns flow without biting too deep and catching. Highly recommend this template.
Well that design does look interesting and different from the previous generation Underground Firebird mutant.
Some significant design differences I notice:
-- Three fins on the tail instead of two
-- No auxiliary side fins
-- Shorter back fins
-- more concave in the channels. (or at least it appears that way)
Couple of questions for you:
1. I rode my Firebird without the side fins once and it just didn't work. Sliding out, couldn't go upwind very well -- especially toe side. How does this one compare without the side fins and the extra centre fin?
2. The front foot pad appears square to the board (90 degrees) How can you ride it without pointing your front foot forward? To me, it would be like trying to ride a surfboard with both feet pointing directly at the opposite rail. Horrible. Or you have to contort your foot in the footstrap to a point where it's terribly uncomfortable.
When I first got the Firebird, it too had square pads and it felt awful. I rang Adrian at Underground, he sent me a handful of plugs, I drilled new holes and epoxied the new plugs in to duck the front pad to almost 45 degrees. Made a HUGE difference. The board was SO much more rideable and enjoyable. Why doesn't everyone who rides a mutant want their board to be configured like this?
3. Why do people who buy mutants want fins on the front? Do you really ride the board backwards? Why?Isn't half the reason you want a mutant is so you can ride it toe-side the other direction? I removed the front fins on my Firebird straight away. All they did was get in the way and catch the chop every now and again.
4. The back footstrap seems quite far forward to me. On the Firebird, the CENTRE of the back footstrap is 34cm from the tail -- curious how far this one is. Are there additional anchor points to move the back strap further toward the tail?
Cheers,
Rob
Why do people have fins on the front of mutants. To ride backwards. I ride backwardd out through the surf and booost tt style. Then ride the wave back in surf style.
Get your self a cardboards wave. snow board construction style.
The rails holds better in gnaraloo on 8 foot barreling faces better than my surfboard.
Bottom surface area is very similar to "high performance" try hard kite "surf board".
Design has been like that for years. no difference.
I can also do a variety of mobes and flat 3s off kickers on the way out, cool eh.
Get one if you can.
Select to expand quoteRobbo2099 said..KIT33R said..
I've finally put my Shinn Wave out to pasture. The new Axis Twin Wave is a gem.
Full length double concaves and ample rocker make it easy in choppy conditions both ways. Tucked surfboard style rails making carving turns flow without biting too deep and catching. Highly recommend this template.
Well that design does look interesting and different from the previous generation Underground Firebird mutant.
Some significant design differences I notice:
-- Three fins on the tail instead of two
-- No auxiliary side fins
-- Shorter back fins
-- more concave in the channels. (or at least it appears that way)
Couple of questions for you:
1. I rode my Firebird without the side fins once and it just didn't work. Sliding out, couldn't go upwind very well -- especially toe side. How does this one compare without the side fins and the extra centre fin?
2. The front foot pad appears square to the board (90 degrees) How can you ride it without pointing your front foot forward? To me, it would be like trying to ride a surfboard with both feet pointing directly at the opposite rail. Horrible. Or you have to contort your foot in the footstrap to a point where it's terribly uncomfortable.
When I first got the Firebird, it too had square pads and it felt awful. I rang Adrian at Underground, he sent me a handful of plugs, I drilled new holes and epoxied the new plugs in to duck the front pad to almost 45 degrees. Made a HUGE difference. The board was SO much more rideable and enjoyable. Why doesn't everyone who rides a mutant want their board to be configured like this?
3. Why do people who buy mutants want fins on the front? Do you really ride the board backwards? Why?Isn't half the reason you want a mutant is so you can ride it toe-side the other direction? I removed the front fins on my Firebird straight away. All they did was get in the way and catch the chop every now and again.
4. The back footstrap seems quite far forward to me. On the Firebird, the CENTRE of the back footstrap is 34cm from the tail -- curious how far this one is. Are there additional anchor points to move the back strap further toward the tail?
Cheers,
Rob
Hi Rob
1. Up wind performance is better than adequate. Toeside up wind, not as good as my Shinn Wave but this is probably due to the soft rail midship.
2. You are right, the insert holes follow the centreline of the board. I ride with my straps pretty loose so I can move my feet around. The straps I have come with a 3 holed plate. I've currently got it set up in the centre one. I may change then so I can point my front foot a bit more but the option is limited. I can't answer the last part of your question, only time and evolution will tell.
3. I ride mine backwards quite often. It feels more like a TT that way and hikes up wind when needed. It's easy to jump to Toeside when required.
4. I have the back foot strap as far back as allowable. I'd like to be able to move it further back but this is not an option. Ask Adrian why, I'm sure there is a reason. It might make the board uncomfortable to ride the other way. If you'll notice in the image of my board I am using standard surfboard footbpads with a kick at the back. I'm playing around using this spot behind the strap for my back foot in the surf. The fins are set a long way back too and almost in parallel. Not your standard tri-fin configuration. My centre back fin is the same size as the side fins (70mm). The board does come with an 80mm centre fin and 70mm side fins. I'll put an 80mm in and see how it goes.
Thanks Graeme,
Here are some photos of the modified Firebird. YES, it's ugly. No need to point that out.
Essentially I've taken a stock item and turned it into a prototype for experimenting.
Removed the original pads, replaced with some cushy Cabrinha ones; (MUCH better).
Drilled out extra holes in the deck and put in two new plugs to allow duck positioning of front foot. (HUGE difference)
After losing one of the rear fins, have taken an Evo 1.1 surfboard fin and removed the FCS tabs, drilled holes in and then screwed it on with some stainless screws. It's super solid.
I've just received a new set of Evo fins from the distributor in NSW this week to trial that I will attach in the next week or two so it has the same fins on both sides at the back. The original fin is much shorter and is a centre fin with a symmetrical foil.
I'd also like to experiment with putting some asymmetric foils on the side fins to see how that works.
This board rides enormously better than it did in its original configuration when new.
^
An interesting "blast from the past" with a twist, Robo. I will try ducking the front foot straps as you have done to see how the Axis goes. How do you ride the Underground backwards with those huge fins? If you come back to Sydney please look me up for a ride on the Axis and I'd love to try your monster!
I might attack my old Shinn Wave with some mods.
