I do not know how someone can hold a 12m or bigger on a tip when "helping" with a launch?
This "helping" caused a kite to wrap around him, slamming a bladder on a concrete and ripping it off...
For the 3rd time in last 3 months I got this kind of "help". I'll self launch from now on. Thank you.
PS
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Yes:)Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said..
You just cant get good help anymore.
Yes.
Or is it just an ignorance from a kite commodity?
Select to expand quotedbabicwa said..
I do not know how someone can hold a 12m or bigger on a tip when "helping" with a launch?
This "helping" caused a kite to wrap around him, slamming a bladder on a concrete and ripping it off...
...
Sure it's not rider error? The kite slam usually happens when the rider tensions the lines but is standing too far upwind. The kite powers up and slams the helper and makes the helper look like a complete dick.
The correct technique is to stand further downwind of the kite, tension the lines then walk upwind until you can fly the kite out of the helpers hands.
The difficulty with this is making sure the helper doesn't throw the kite up in the air while you're still downwind.
You can recover by running upwind and pulling in the bar, or letting the kite roll and hot launching when it gets downwind, or looping the kite or whatever.
Its an assumption on your behalf that the other guy know know how to launch.
yeah nah!
Until its blowing + 25 knots its really safer to launch yourself unless you know the bloke.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..dbabicwa said..
I do not know how someone can hold a 12m or bigger on a tip when "helping" with a launch?
This "helping" caused a kite to wrap around him, slamming a bladder on a concrete and ripping it off...
...
Sure it's not rider error? The kite slam usually happens when the rider tensions the lines but is standing too far upwind. The kite powers up and slams the helper and makes the helper look like a complete dick.
The correct technique is to stand further downwind of the kite, tension the lines then walk upwind until you can fly the kite out of the helpers hands.
The difficulty with this is making sure the helper doesn't throw the kite up in the air while you're still downwind.
You can recover by running upwind and pulling in the bar, or letting the kite roll and hot launching when it gets downwind, or looping the kite or whatever.
You cannot tension the lines if the helper holds a kite on a tip, I recon. The 12m kite is many meters in the air and only one line will tension, resulting in a slam (think triangle, one line is longest side of a right-angled triangle).
Or a kite will bend and slam it like it did.
Which opens a question, if he got injured, would he blame me? I'm 30m away (extensions), the lines are not under tension at all...Select to expand quotePlummet said..
Its an assumption on your behalf that the other guy know know how to launch.
yeah nah!
Until its blowing + 25 knots its really safer to launch yourself unless you know the bloke.
Or it is just an ignorance to learn since he will never ever hold his own kite when launching himself:(
You right, self launching is a go, but sometimes you trust ppl.
Select to expand quotedbabicwa said..
I do not know how someone can hold a 12m or bigger on a tip when "helping" with a launch?
This "helping" caused a kite to wrap around him, slamming a bladder on a concrete and ripping it off...
For the 3rd time in last 3 months I got this kind of "help". I'll self launch from now on. Thank you.
PS
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Natural selection at its finest.
Learn to self launch!
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..dbabicwa said..
I do not know how someone can hold a 12m or bigger on a tip when "helping" with a launch?
This "helping" caused a kite to wrap around him, slamming a bladder on a concrete and ripping it off...
...
Sure it's not rider error? The kite slam usually happens when the rider tensions the lines but is standing too far upwind. The kite powers up and slams the helper and makes the helper look like a complete dick.
The correct technique is to stand further downwind of the kite, tension the lines then walk upwind until you can fly the kite out of the helpers hands.
The difficulty with this is making sure the helper doesn't throw the kite up in the air while you're still downwind.
You can recover by running upwind and pulling in the bar, or letting the kite roll and hot launching when it gets downwind, or looping the kite or whatever.
I'm picking this is likely the problem. I see it happen regularly (and was probably guilty of it a while ago too).
Extremely "accurate" geometry might show that if you hold a tip and throw a kite in the air one line is longer by xyz (a bigger kite more longer)?
The better way is to hold the kite in the middle with a tip on the ground. This is not a beach, no room for error at all.
1.5m is a concrete wall
But all of this happened with a slack lines me still walking away...
Holding a tip on a big kite is a no, no...Holding a tip on a small kite and strong wind is a bigger no! That's how I see it.
When it's above 18kts I prefer to self launch... It's something I learnt to appreciate earlier on because my local kite beach is considered crowded when there are more than 3 people.
Applying tension unevenly will make things worse, but doing it from a downwind position will reduce the impact of that. It really is up to the kiter to learn to gently take the kite away from the launcher. It's an acquired skill and I must admit it's something I have only recently put in the effort to learn after years of self launching.
It is possible to hold a big kite by the tip and position the rest of the kite anywhere you want. I do it all the time when opening or closing the strut clips, or cleaning off the leading edge. You fly the body of the kite and use pressure on the tip to fly the rest of the kite around. It's almost like a little freestyle trick in itself. Of course, it's a bit much to expect a stray launch assistant to have practiced tricky kite handling moves.
absolutely agree with ya gorgo. fly a zephyr mainly, never ben't the kite over anyone or slammed it forward on them. when you tether launch it's sitting on it's wingtip. however when launching for people have had them walk way to far upwind before tensioning, driving the kite forward, seen people with tensioned lines ready to launch see something wrong with the lines reach up to untangle & ytake a step forward driving the kite over launchee. all for someone who is trying to help them. all riders fault. imo
Yeh learnt that the hard way with the edge. That bloody thing tries so hard to claw its way to the edge you gotta be downwind a little. My bro bless his heart even after all these years has trouble understanding the wind window and the fact that even if the rider is in the right position you gotta keep a tip on the ground and your whole body against the kite as the thing can knock you over. Needlesss to say he did the wing tip thingy and it shot forward and did the same thing as described, luckily only a very slight tear in my 10m edge!
Can't pick ya family hey.
Select to expand quoteSlack said..
He was at Peli, not a place to self launch in any wind.
Or to kite.. It's a shocker
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Can't pick ya family hey.
^^^
Very true:)Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
It is possible to hold a big kite by the tip and position the rest of the kite anywhere you want. I do it all the time when opening or closing the strut clips, or cleaning off the leading edge. You fly the body of the kite and use pressure on the tip to fly the rest of the kite around. It's almost like a little freestyle trick in itself. Of course, it's a bit much to expect a stray launch assistant to have practiced tricky kite handling moves.
Exactly. I do it all the time but not when launching someone:)
Most of the slamming I see on my local are by holding a tip. The 2nd one is by puling only one side on a bar end...
I just can't imagine someone holding a Zephyr on a tip in the air with a loose lines. Or the wind is stable as and a kite pumped as a granite rock:)
99% of the time I self launch there's too many morons out there that wouldn't know s**t from clay when it comes to launching,I launch heaps of people it's a piece of p**s but when it comes to my turn usually it's a choice between a moron or just do it myself nowadays I turn people down for a launch cos I just can't be bothered with the idiot factor,it's better to be in control of your own destiny.
I also self land 99% of the time rather than drop my kite to the same useless moron that just spins it over and smashes down on 100 busted shells without even looking for a clean piece of beach.
yeah your right. obviously it's not right on the tip. same spot as when you land someone. heres a question then, hoe come the same person who has given someone grief when launching has so much control when landing into someone's hands
Select to expand quoteROSS1BRO said..
yeah your right. obviously it's not right on the tip. same spot as when you land someone. heres a question then, hoe come the same person who has given someone grief when launching has so much control when landing into someone's hands
Because of the geometry. It's a perfect triangle (sort of)...I can hold my kite indefinitely above the ground. But make one line only 20cm shorter and try than!
As per above drawing, this is the case when the helper is positioned quite above the rider. The helper can position a kite only when held like in the middle. The kite will flap like a flag if hold on a tip. A bigger kite, a bigger flag...
ah yes you can
It does make it harder for the kiter though as they have to start tensioning the lines further down wind and move up wind as both lines get even tension. You may also have seen kiters launch their kite using sand on the wingtip or the best I have seen was sand next to the inflate valve on the canopy which works but needs the same technique.
^^^
Than the kite tip is on the ground isn't it?
Anyways, my view is that if you hold a kite on a tip it's dangerous for the helper and your kite will probably suffer. Add 2.5m in a height difference and bingo...
I self launched number of times off a beach with the method you described. Never did that on the Peli Pt because of many obstacles.
Was SEasterly yesterday making it very difficult landing for some of the guys. Peli Pt is not for everyone on the SE, as you probably know...
Maybe its just a fancy WA thing..
But since when has concrete been in designated launching and landing areas?
i dont about L & L off a 1.5M concrete wall but ave lost count of kites sent or caught up to 17M, its up to the pilot to put there self in the right position for smooth launch without running over the assistant !! know your wind angle...on landings i stand my ground you bring the kite to me,,presto wind angle...going back out lay it LE down,, packing up invert and hold, pilot removes lines, clean dry kite !! all the local boys can do self L & L ,, but dont have to i'm near by playin with the video,,should capture some solo set up L & L...everyone has a different system.. assisted has to cut down on kite wear, that has to be good... So doodle heads dont go blaming the assistant for your lack of understanding, can't say i've ever had to throw a kite in the air ?? could imagine running to wind to launch a 17 in ultra light...you dont have to hold kite in the middle to launch,,pick it up centre and hand shuffle LE up, make sure wind angle is rite cause when the high side fills it will move windward...who is the moron, poor bastard holding the kite or the guru that put it in their hands,,,try thinking the ' morons ' are mums and dads, friend helping,, the potential new kiter,, while ya a ledgeon in ya own mind... wake up do the right thing by the people on the sideline..
Select to expand quotedbabicwa said...
[br]I do not know how someone can hold a 12m or bigger on a tip when "helping" with a launch?
This "helping" caused a kite to wrap around him, slamming a bladder on a concrete and ripping it off...
For the 3rd time in last 3 months I got this kind of "help". I'll self launch from now on. Thank you.
PS
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sorry but it sounds like you were positioned wrong, I've seen plenty of assist launches and have a laugh watching the rider pointing this way and that, imo its not the responsability of the launcher It's the rider that should be doing the manouvering around , watch the kite launcher series superb examples of kite lauching and chicks arses, he's my hero
yea cauncy totally agree, had to defend the sideline though, would like to train some launching chicks to video, the throw launch could be good, any kite groupies NQ is coming in season now....
Select to expand quotedbabicwa said..
Go back to school. You forgot about the wind in your diagram which will cause uplift (or side lift in your piccy). It is not the best practice to launch a kite from the wingtip nowadays, but as mentioned it was done with C-kites for many years. At pelican point being gusty, the wind window expands and contracts. If you ask someone to launch your kite, they are doing you a favour. As a person happy to launch someone-elses kite, Im amazed how many riders dont understand the basic physics of the wind window, or are in such a rush they check once and launch 3-4 times. The most dangerous place IS the beach, not the water.
Your diagram shows you have no idea. You might know the "how", but no idea on the "why". Please dont take this as a personal attack, you have missed some of the key fundamentals.
Select to expand quotecauncy said..dbabicwa said...
I do not know how someone can hold a 12m or bigger on a tip when "helping" with a launch?
This "helping" caused a kite to wrap around him, slamming a bladder on a concrete and ripping it off...
For the 3rd time in last 3 months I got this kind of "help". I'll self launch from now on. Thank you.
PS
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sorry but it sounds like you were positioned wrong, I've seen plenty of assist launches and have a laugh watching the rider pointing this way and that, imo its not the responsability of the launcher It's the rider that should be doing the manouvering around , watch the kite launcher series superb examples of kite lauching and chicks arses, he's my hero
Nah mate, I don't think so. If helping someone you're taking a part of responsibility. Or you can easily say NO. Your choice, same as my choice who I will ask for help.
Tell me one thing if the helper release a kite by a mistake before you give a sign who is responsible? There are many, many
examples where the helper can be out of control. And you cannot do anything about it. Absolutely bloody nothing.
Read my post again, my lines were slack...They are 30m lines, long walk.
This is a can of worms btw, not saying anything about the helper other than holding a kite on a tip high in the air is wrong.
It's not about the blame game, it's about learning something from this experience. For havens sake, a much bigger bloke than me was on the ground when he tried to hold a 15m on a tip (coldshot 6'2" giving a launch to dusta), and the lines were slack as well.
Select to expand quotedave...... said..dbabicwa said..
Go back to school. You forgot about the wind in your diagram which will cause uplift (or side lift in your piccy). .
.
.
Your diagram shows you have no idea. You might know the "how", but no idea on the "why". Please dont take this as a personal attack, you have missed some of the key fundamentals.
Thanks. The pic demonstrates how it looks like when you hold a kite straight in the air, vertically. Try to narrow the kite holding it on a tip.
If you tension a "longer" line ("longer" side of a "triangle"), the kite will push the helper on a left side because the air pressure will shift down causing uplift on the lower side.
If you tension a "shorter" line, the kite will bend above the holding point coz the pressure shifted on upper side. As seen many times.
Only when the lines are of equal length meaning the kite is slightly put under angle you can launch the kite. Agreed?
This pic has nothing to do with the lines but the distance. It is impossible to launch a kite from this pic...Only if you narrow the bar drastically you might (yes, from experience, read below). Basic geometry, not trigonometry or triple integrals.
I've actually did the above once by a mistake. One steering line was shorter by 30-40cm, yes 30-40! And ridden it for 1 hr. Every single turn was a almost a loop. Try it...
It's interesting how raising this question raised so many red thumbs. When someone can actually die or be badly injured it sounds like the pilot is to blame. For the helper holding a kite tip or tripping over.
I'm not familiar with your local spot, but if its happened 3 times is be asking a question to myself, launching near a hazardous area or concrete as mentioned ain't the best, but it may be your only option, if I get someone to launch me that isn't known to me I generally hold the kite in position reqd then pass to them telling them not to release tilll thumbs up, clip in then walk around myself, not bothered how long my lines are, feather my lines until I'm good then thumbs up, if the guy say slips or accidentally drops your kite then its an accident, I've seen a few classic launches though super dangerous ,but hilarious at the same time,also a hand up can look like a thumbs up from 25mtrs away, personally prefer to self tether launch better for you and your kite
