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What kind of paraglider? In the videos where I've noticed, they've had A, B, C, D and brake (or Z) rows like in the pic below... that's 5 rows to the 4 on the Speed3s. On other PGs, I've seen 4 rows... those seemed more sporty. Speed3 uses ABCZ bridles, the smaller Speed4 ABZ.
Seems simple enough.....
Select to expand quotesurfingboye said..
do doonas have good down-the-line drift?
nope. you must maintain line tension.
Select to expand quoteChris6791 said..
Ive never flown a foil but for the wear and tear issue, I'm thinking you don't leave foils flapping around sitting on the beach before, after and in between sessions like you do with LEI's?
Foils generally don't flap on the beach as you flag them out and sand the upwind tip.
I have a direct comparison regarding foil longevity v lei. i got my 13m edge and 15m speed within 2 weeks of each other. The speed had considerable use i had to replace bar and lines, pullies and pully bridles. The edge though second hand was in new condition. 3years on. the speed canopy doesn't look any different to when i got it. The edge is all but shagged. I use my speed about 3 times more than my 13 edge. It is very clear and dramatic the advantage of a foil over a lei for longevity to me.
PS I do not leave my kites flapping on the beach. I pump them up on grass, launch/land on grass 50% of the time. I generally do my session and pack my kite away. So... my leis don't have wear from flapping on the beach.
The flysurfer though spends more time flapping on the beach when i am landkiting. I also launch 99% of the time on the sand. So its life is harder than the lei and it still lasts alot longer!...
To be honest i'm astounded at the longevity of the flysurfer delux cloth. Its so thin and silky. Yet somehow its amaisingly robust. I've wrapped it around drift wood, light poles, my own car!, shrubs, crashed it into waves, Hell i even crashed it onto a barbed wire fence once. no damage.
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
And... there's video around of a guy water relaunching a peak.
T84__?rel=0
Much more fragile? Nonsense. Differently fragile, perhaps... and don't forget, I've never had a leaking bladder on any of my foils ;)
...
Long story short, either you like 'em and can live with the quirks, or you don't and you have to live with LEI quirks.
Personally, I fly both LEI and Flysurfer foils. And have had arcs. And still have some fixed bridles...
+1
Thanks. I am now more keen than ever to get the Flysurfer Peak. I had no idea it could relaunch from water. I wonder if in tougher winder conditions how it would handle? I guess being single-skin as long as some corner of the kite can catch some wind, then you're up and adams!
Select to expand quoteLambie said..
... also tried out a PL foil 15m for light wind stuff- the auto zenith thing just did my head in !! It worked well but I was paranoid of dropping it in the drink but Im so used to an LEI falling towards the water when you let go of the bar ( or kind of loose track of the kite!) but the foil did the other thing - kind of weird!!
I thought the point of flying a kite - any kite is that it stays up in the air, not fall down.
Select to expand quotePlummet said..
To be honest i'm astounded at the longevity of the flysurfer delux cloth. Its so thin and silky. Yet somehow its amaisingly robust. I've wrapped it around drift wood, light poles, my own car!, shrubs, crashed it into waves, Hell i even crashed it onto a barbed wire fence once. no damage.
And that's precisely why I love using them on land. My Psycho3 landed on a palling metal fence with arrow heads, and I managed to pull her out from the bar/lines and fly again. No damage what so ever. I was shocked actually.
And on water, she "bounces" off the water and doesn't stick like a LEI with water lapping over the bladder and in between the LE canopy.
I actually think the newer and bigger Speed 4's are perfect for everything - water, land and snow. One kite size fits all. And yeah the age of SIKs are no barrier in terms of safety. Whereas, LEI, you almost feel guilty not selling and upgrading every year.
Select to expand quotePlummet said...surfingboye said..
do doonas have good down-the-line drift?
nope. you must maintain line tension.
Do foils kite loop good?
Foils are awesome. People who criticise them often either lack experience with them or were not shown how to handle them properly. There are not many people around that would have the experience myself and my team at Kitepower have with foils, we were the original Flexifoil importers, but prior to that flew foils from several other brands, including Quadrifoil, Peter Lynn, etc. Spent many hundreds of hours landkiting and early days kitesurfing on them. Kitesurfed on them because their performance was vastly superior to the early inflatables. safety systems on the early ones was crap or non existant, worst injuries I've received have been on foils, these I'd attribute to poor design, no safety, and the tendency then to want to hang on and ride out anything that mother nature threw at us, over confidence.
Major downsides
Bridles - drag, tangling, wear of bridles, tangling of bridles, extremely complex internal structure of some brands like Flysurfer, which means costly and time consuming repairs if they do have a cell/rib blow out. Turning speed and efficiency. More difficult to repair if they sustain major damage, and most repairers are not familiar with foil construction and repair. Auto zenith on 4 line PL Arc style kites
Major upsides - superior aerodynamic efficiency (but not by as much as some people imagine), longevity if handled well. NO BLADDERS!
Most suitable for - land/snow, but closed cell types definitely useable on water, more for freeride and intermediate rider use, not good in waves. Auto zenith on 4 line PL Arc style kites
Inflatables are awesome! Totally rock for water use. Both can be used for land and water, early ones were crappy in performance and safety. Still have some early years kites, and hope to have an inflatable nostalgia day early next year.
Results visible as market dominance, and in kiting events are starting to separate the two types of kites, both in the market and in the minds of users. Inflatables dominate water kiting (and foils dominate at least in performance on land and snow), simply because they work better, better for racing, better for wakestyle, and better for waves. Inflatables have superior water relaunch, inherent flotation and turning speed with simple 4 or 5 line control systems of modern post 2006/07 models and in particular post 2010/11 kites.
Will work on land and snow, but best suited to water though (but once flying on land performance is at least equal or possibly better than foils).
Major downsides - Ground handling issues on snow, and puncture risk and ground handling issues on land other than sandy beaches. Bladders are prone to punctures, single skin construction is prone to faster wear if left exposed to wind and sun. The pump.
Major upsides - vastly superior performance on the water for most aspects of kitesurfing, better relaunch and simple effective safety systems. Simple and easy to maintain rigging. For water use, they offer the most simple plug and play experience for all users.
These are all foils, some are 2 line, some 3 line some 4 line, and range from beginner to advanced high performance snow/land kites.
Guess what I fly?
Here's my view and I've own/ed LEI and Flysurfers.
Flysurfer Pros:
1.- Huge lift... specially the Speed's look at their AR.
2.- Easy quick self launch... unroll pull the centre lines and your off while LEI guys are still pumping. Occasionally you may get a bridle tangle, specially when new to them.
3.- They fly better, they're more stable and have more consistent pull.
4.- Easy self land.
Flysurfer Cons:
1.- They're fragile... crash one LE in to the water and chances are it's going to rip something inside. It will still fly, but a couple more and it's game over. But since they're much more stable it rarely happens.
I've learnt to repair my own... pretty easy now; tape with duct tape, sow with nylon line. 1hr to repair 50cm tear.
2.- They're slow turners. So if your doing kiteloops, you really need to boost higher pull hard a lot sooner.
LEI Pros:
1.- They turn faster.
2.- They're tougher, but they need to be bcos they're always falling out of the sky.
LEI Cons:
1.- Farking pumps, bladers and valves.
2.- Take up more space. An 8m takes more space than a 12m + 15m FS.
3.- Yo Pump up your kite, pump it up a little more, while I'm jumping... look a hit the water cos that's where the party's at and you still pumping. I wa a place to kite can't you keep me on the water some more. Make ma daay. Make ma daay.
Pump it pump it pump it.
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
You think your S3 15 has less depower than other kites that size/power? I think one of the best things about the Speed3s is their wind range...
The problem with their depower is they don't fly too well fully sheeted out (powered). I tend to keep mine fully depowered so they handle better.
But in general I'd say their right at the top of the power range for all kites.Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
I'd love to see someone fly a PG on a bar and lines I know people have flown Speeds on harness and handles, like a PG...
I've got a 28m Airwave Sport 3, that could be repurposed 
Select to expand quoteFlySurfer said..
3.- Yo Pump up your kite, pump it up a little more, while I'm jumping... look a hit the water cos that's where the party's at and you still pumping. I wa a place to kite can't you keep me on the water some more. Make ma daay. Make ma daay.
Pump it pump it pump it.
^^^^ That, sir, was gnikcuf awesome!
Select to expand quotePlummet said..surfingboye said..
do doonas have good down-the-line drift?
nope. you must maintain line tension.
Depends - if there's enough wind, they do... kinda :D
Select to expand quotesurfingboye said..Plummet said...surfingboye said..
do doonas have good down-the-line drift?
nope. you must maintain line tension.
Do foils kite loop good?
Yes but not how you expect - they tend to pull all the way around as the speed generates lift but they take a while to get around and you end up miles downwind :D
Select to expand quoteFlySurfer said..Kamikuza said..
You think your S3 15 has less depower than other kites that size/power? I think one of the best things about the Speed3s is their wind range...
The problem with their depower is they don't fly too well fully sheeted out (powered). I tend to keep mine fully depowered so they handle better.
But in general I'd say their right at the top of the power range for all kites.Kamikuza said..
I'd love to see someone fly a PG on a bar and lines I know people have flown Speeds on harness and handles, like a PG...
I've got a 28m Airwave Sport 3, that could be repurposed
Sheeted out, the FSers zip to the edge of the window and with enough wind, you can dawdle upwind at crazy angles.
Select to expand quoteChris6791 said..
Ive never flown a foil but for the wear and tear issue, I'm thinking you don't leave foils flapping around sitting on the beach before, after and in between sessions like you do with LEI's?
Not which a beach full of tards who trample all over your lines and drop their kites willy-nilly all over the place :o Laid out in the wind, they flap up and down but the worst wear comes from sliding around while launching or landing...
Hi All, If interested here's a link (below) from a previous post of mine some months back, there's a vid and a few posts down the page. I currently fly both LEI's and PL Charger2 Foils. Besides all the pros and cons covered by guys above a major plus for me is the ability to self launch and land my foils with ease. This includes limited space and high winds. Unsure on other brands but with the right know-how you can easily and safely put a PL Charger directly on your target landing spot. If you watch the vid the final frames show me stalling it down to the ground, I have used this technique up to 35kts on my 8m with no dramas. If anyone is interested I'll try dig up a self launch vid in 30+ kts in very limited space. Cheers
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Light-Wind-Big-Board-Massive-Kite/?SearchTerms=massive+kite
Cool video there. What was that thing at 5:01? Looks like the massive tail of a sting ray? Awesome dude!
I love how you spin the bar and pull to do what looks like a half-loop. Is that a trick for light wind days? I admit, I've been flying my Flysurfer Psycho3 like a LEI and I do loose power on light wind days. I should try your technique! And that was a PL Charger? What size?
I have to say, your self-landing was rude. Even more if it was windier. Sorry mate, but you should have simply bought both steerers in hard and held them. The kite would have collapsed into a heap without you releasing the QR. On my FS Psy3, it's the same thing but you really need to guide it so that it lands on the tip and then I collapse the lot with the outside lines. Try doing that with a LEI? Ugh
Select to expand quoteKazan said..
Cool video there. What was that thing at 5:01? Looks like the massive tail of a sting ray? Awesome dude!
I love how you spin the bar and pull to do what looks like a half-loop. Is that a trick for light wind days? I admit, I've been flying my Flysurfer Psycho3 like a LEI and I do loose power on light wind days. I should try your technique! And that was a PL Charger? What size?
I have to say, your self-landing was rude. Even more if it was windier. Sorry mate, but you should have simply bought both steerers in hard and held them. The kite would have collapsed into a heap without you releasing the QR. On my FS Psy3, it's the same thing but you really need to guide it so that it lands on the tip and then I collapse the lot with the outside lines. Try doing that with a LEI? Ugh
22.5m...
I'm impressed the kite backstalled that far to the ground at all...! Arcs do really do backstall landings too well. I used to lower the kite to the edge of the window, hook my leash into the OhSh!t handle, backstall it as far as it would go back into the window then just unhook and let go.
FSer is a totally different kettle of fish... I hate having to land by QRing them, so backstall then hand over hand to the kite.
Thanks for the comments guys, Kazan..look closely and you will see I have indeed bought both in, I'm holding the back lines.. The kite is stalled, I am unhooked from the chicken loop and my safety leash is disconnected, I stall it to the ground and then release one of the back lines, the kite then lays down from the windward wing-tip. I've never had an issue with this method and can comfortably hold my ground and not get dragged downwind on that kite (22.5m) in up to 18kts. Likewise my 8m in 35kts, it feels pretty daunting when first doing it, but as the kite is fully stalled there is no power in it whatsoever. Cheers.. Unsure on the sting ray thing will check it out in high res.
Select to expand quoteKitepower Australia said..
Those cute little Imps are sooooooo cuuuuute!
Inflatable kites suck!!! I went down the beach today and neither kite in 2 kite quiver was holding air 
Select to expand quoteJacobMatan said..
Inflatable kites suck!!! I went down the beach today and neither kite in 2 kite quiver was holding air
Stop buying old cheap ones and look after your gear better :D
Hello,
I would like to share my thoughts after 10 years of flying kites of the FLYSURFER brand (i.e. I exclude other brands of foils from the discussion). I see the following top characteristics in these foil kites. My riding style is old school jumps, speed and cruising, rarely waves, no freestyle.
Positives:
- Minimum maintenance and care, though kites last for more years than you need to. In particular no issues with bladders or valves.
- Easy and quick set up: throw the kite on the beach and launch (no pumping, no attaching lines)
Negatives:
- Cost. It seems to be the brand's preference to opt for more expensive and higher quality materials than cheap options.
- Concern that the kite would not relaunch: say 90-95% of relaunch success in the recent years for the high aspect ratio kite of the brand. The 10% failure is in light wind and wave. I rarely drop the kite though.
There are numerous other logical differences between Flysurfer kites and other brands of foils and LEI, but the abovementioned characteristics stand out for me after 10 years of use at addictive level .
I hope that helps.
Chur.
Fred
I moved away from foil type kites in about 2002/3
The reason I did so was because back in those days you could not self rescue with foil kites in the water.
I had an incident where I broke a line about 750m of the beach by the time I had swum about 250m the kite had turned into a sea anchor but fortunately a friend came with a boat came and picked me up. If he had not I think I may well have drowned
Is there a technique with more modern foils to self rescue if you have gear failure like line snap
Select to expand quoteIanR said..
I moved away from foil type kites in about 2002/3
The reason I did so was because back in those days you could not self rescue with foil kites in the water.
I had an incident where I broke a line about 750m of the beach by the time I had swum about 250m the kite had turned into a sea anchor but fortunately a friend came with a boat came and picked me up. If he had not I think I may well have drowned
Is there a technique with more modern foils to self rescue if you have gear failure like line snap
That could still happen. And the main reason why I have 4 lie's and only one foil.
Select to expand quoteIanR said..
I moved away from foil type kites in about 2002/3
The reason I did so was because back in those days you could not self rescue with foil kites in the water.
I had an incident where I broke a line about 750m of the beach by the time I had swum about 250m the kite had turned into a sea anchor but fortunately a friend came with a boat came and picked me up. If he had not I think I may well have drowned
Is there a technique with more modern foils to self rescue if you have gear failure like line snap
Wrap the kite around the board and paddle... it still has a little drag, but easy enough. My Psycho 3 bow tied on me ~500m out then the wind vanished.
Took me ~40 mins to get back in.
I did waaaay more than my fair share of swimming with a soggy non-relaunchable foils in 1999. It was easy to do.
At first I wrapped the kite around the bar, lay it on the board and paddled in.
A few times I stuffed the kite down inside my rashie and paddled in.
Eventually I just left the kite sitting on the water and bobbed along until the wind and waves washed us up on the beach. This is the default self rescue position with any kind of kite (foil or lei) and any kind of strongish, onshore wind.
It was easy to pour all the water and sand out, relaunch and keep riding. Much better than having a drowned closed cell foil. They were a bugger to inflate until you could dry out the inside.
Sometimes I hanker to go kiting again with an open cell foil. But my lei work so well there's not a lot of point.
Yes Flysurfer and Gorgo that is possible with surf boards but with a small twin tip I much prefer the ability to use the kite as a floatation device and a sail to get me back to the beach
I wore a life jacket in the early days. One of my best memories of kiting is bobbing along through the shore break. Give the kite a quick shake. Haul it up in the air then keep riding. Ah the good old days when kiting was new and beaches were empty.
Open cell foils - ballsy!
I've had to swim in twice, with the 21 when the wind totally died. In the same week too... the first time I had to actively swim crosscurrent to make a beach or it would have been very messy. I just towed the kite behind me...
Other problems - bow ties, twists, broken lines etc I've flown the kite back to shore, or been close enough that by the time I wrapped some lines up, the kite was on the land.
The right time and place - and mood - they're awesome.
