Don't show us your hook

Few comments.
I've seen the plastic grommets split on the dynabar. More on the V8 dynabar. Same one jaystore is advising to smooth polish the rope holes. This version is also very heavy because of it's sold construction. I personally wouldn't buy it as a wave rider, and am waiting for the new lighter model V8 to replace my old V7.
Bonster I like your ingenuity... but doesn't that set up with a soft harness and no spreader bar hurt your lower back. If it doesn't, it would be interesting to know why. It goes against the movement towards rigid harness shells.
To all the guys that have a sliding safety attachment ring/point on the same rope as their kite attaches.....It's safer if you can fix it to centre of your harness spreader; not on rope. I used to have safety sliding on ring until it nearly drowned me. Was overseas on sizeable reef break. Late backhand re-entry and board with legrope squirted through lines and whole lot got rolled with me; pulling kite down. Could release kite quickly, but battled to release moving safety in mess getting rolled in whitewash.......You also won't lose your kite if your rope fails; it will just go to safety.

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pearl said...
Few comments.
I've seen the plastic grommets split on the dynabar. More on the V8 dynabar. Same one jaystore is advising to smooth polish the rope holes. This version is also very heavy because of it's sold construction. I personally wouldn't buy it as a wave rider, and am waiting for the new lighter model V8 to replace my old V7.
Bonster I like your ingenuity... but doesn't that set up with a soft harness and no spreader bar hurt your lower back. If it doesn't, it would be interesting to know why. It goes against the movement towards rigid harness shells.
To all the guys that have a sliding safety attachment ring/point on the same rope as their kite attaches.....It's safer if you can fix it to centre of your harness spreader; not on rope. I used to have safety sliding on ring until it nearly drowned me. Was overseas on sizeable reef break. Late backhand re-entry and board with legrope squirted through lines and whole lot got rolled with me; pulling kite down. Could release kite quickly, but battled to release moving safety in mess getting rolled in whitewash.......You also won't lose your kite if your rope fails; it will just go to safety.

No my back is not sore and all I have is smiles while I'm riding. I use an extra small harness for this one, I'm a small to medium. I'm also riding down wind a lot so the tension is less.
There is a pad that comes with my older Dakine harness. But at the moment it's not necessary. For wave riding I usually wear my harness loose on a standard waist. I get breathless at times when I get worked so having that breathing space and the waist harness spinning is great. That's why I won't put the pad on , I find the top edge of the pad sits under my ribs and pushes it up at 12.
Have anyone tried the pyro maniac by Dakine?

Interesting. I wonder how it'll hold up the pulley hitting the shackles...

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Greenarrowz said..
Heres my answer to split bushes and cut Dyneema.
Both D links are rated to 750kg each....and floating
Pin from rear is 2500kg.
Both pivot and swivel.
Installed with loctite on threads.

Your design is only worsening the performance of the Dynabar while trying to solve an non existing problem - wear of the rope at the connection holes. When the holes are properly polished you even do not need the plastic sleeves and the rope will never ever wear at the connection holes prior to wear in the middle where the most friction occurs. If this happened somewhere, it is only because of a faulty Dynabar with sharp edges at the connection holes. If I was Mr. Jay I would definitely polish and inspect every Dynabar personally!!! Telling the customers to buy and use the plastic sleeves (2 of 4 broke by me also) or telling the customers to polish themselves the holes because the china factory and the Italian office can not guarantee proper quality, especially when safety is concerned, is lousy customer service, I believe.

Your design is worsening the performance by:
1. Putting the connection point away from the bar and creating leverage forces - the vertical pull of the kite will try to rotate your bar.
2. Putting the connection point away from your body and increasing the forces which try to rotate your whole harness.
3. Your sliding distance is reduced.
3. The pulley can hit the D link and can be damaged.

All these disadvantages are minor but why bother, just polish your holes

P.S. All the negatives of the hook (except that it is fixed) come from the added leverage created by the fact that the connection point is away from the bar and the kite creates torque forces on the bar and on the whole harness which rotates around your body and rides up. When the connection point is away from your body you try to fight against the increased rotational forces when riding toeside instead of comfortably leaning on the kite. The sliding or fixed in the middle rope (like the BRM connection system) makes huge difference in toeside riding comfort and during turns because they bring the connection point closer to the body. The same idea stays behind the creation of the NP Tracker Hook Spreader Bar.

The thick protective padding behind the bar additionally worsens the performance effectively moving the connection point further away from your body. I am using my Dynabar since the very beginning without the protective padding behind it which brings the connection points as close as possible to my body minimising leverage and toque forces created by the pull of the kite.

DimiSUP,

Interesting. I have a V7 Dynabar and use it as well as the set up I posted a picture of back at page 3 of this thread, where I use a DaKine spreader bar and pad with the hook cut off, threading the rope through the attachment points and threading the CL through the stainless steel ring.

I used my Dynabar the other day and found that it rode up much more that the DaKine set up, for the reasons your state in your post. It is also much heavier.

I also don't like the fact that the connection point is further away from me compared to when I use the rope/ring set up, which in turn means that the bar can end up further away.

I intend to see if I can use the Dynabar with the DaKine spreader pad, which I hope will be much lighter compared to the Dynabar pad and should prevent so much twisting.

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Hausey said..


JAY - I have no vested interest this conversation - however IMO - perhaps you should do some more R&D before you release this carbon Powerband design - unless you've made changes from the design I tried?

I was (un)fortunate enough to test TMcT's JAY harness with power band front and back. I had four goes on it over different days over a couple of weeks in different conditions.

First time I used it, was with both the carbon band in the harness and behind the Dynabar. It was extremely UNCOMFORTABLE - so much so I had to come in and change to my own harness to keep kiting. I found it was 'digging' into my back and for the first time in 12 years of kiting I had back pain.

McT and I investigated inside the harness and tore some stitching to remove the back Powerband - it is a 2 Dimensional shape - mate it needs to be 3 Dimensional!

See my review on the Ride Engine Harness on the 'Reviews' forum - which is comfortable - because it has been moulded to the human anatomy of a persons back - 3 D shape! Try the Ride Engine for a comparison and it will blow your mind how comfortable the back of the harness is!

I felt strong pain in the back area around the carbon 'band' using the Powerband for an hour in powered up conditions...... maybe you have tested and like it (you might be made of steel ) - but I've been trying lots of harnesses over the years to find a good one and truthfully, sorry to say, IMO yours was the most uncomfortable harness I've used with the Powerband in.

The next 3 times I tried it without the Powerband in the back - and it felt like any other harness - except more restricted with the Powerband in the front behind the Dynabar. This I noticed say when picking up my board to launch or doing a fully cranked bottom turn when you can have your upper body leaning over your lower body as much as possible etc.. Even rolling up your kite at the end of the session was uncomfortable. I can't see the point of your design in the front either - could it perhaps even injure ribs as it's so wide?

So, this Powerband (the version I used) IMO - does nothing for comfort in the back - and for the front - I didn't notice any appreciable improvement over the Dynabar. It didn't seem to 'crush' less or 'ride-up' less.... IMO 'squeezing' is felt through the back - so I can see your logic - but the carbon moulding needs to be 3 dimensional.

This thread and others will give you plenty to think about - and work on the next version of the Dynabar? Simpler, lighter and safer..... maybe even a composite 'carbon' option ? Dynabar, for many kiters, creates a much better body position and has improved the performance of many riders.

I'm not trying to discourage your work in harness development - keep it up. But try a Ride Engine, do some brainstorming on Seabreeze, have a good look at the 3D anatomical & mechanical 16th century drawings of that other famous Italian inventor - Leonardo da Vinci ..... And do some extensive R&D before releasing anything - maybe you have and I'm only speaking from my own experience and got it wrong!? But if you get it right (for me) - I'll buy it!

Then save 65€ because you will buy a POWERBAND and sell back you RideEngine if you already bought it.

First of all Leonardo da Vinci was a genius and I'm proud to use his knowledge and designs to develop JAY products.
One of my first designs based on Vinci's "uomo vitruviano" was the DYNABAR used by thousands of kiters, it has small issues to be resolved but it does very well what it was declared to do.

From what you write it looks you are involved in design, but I think you are a bit superficial in what you declare and I explain you why.

Last year I started on FlexTech Carbonfiber project and produced a first stock of samples in size L-XL and you used one of them (it was a mistake to let a user to use it), but meanwhile we changed few things like the profile shape and Monday we will start selling on our our web eShop the first stock we received few days ago.




But lets talk about FlexTech...
The picture below shows a human body in movement and at the first glance I notice "flex", so I worked on this idea for my solutions.
8 years ago I released the first DYNABAR version and I designed it a bit longer to have more sliding run and limit body compression.
3 years ago I started working on ABS solution (Adjustable Back Support) and produced an harness with some rigidity given by a PVC BAND and 3 replaceble fiberglass battens. The user can vary the stiffness of the back area.



The problem with harness is compression and ride up. How to solve it? With DYNABAR I solved 40% of the problem as explained above.
Rigidity is good to limit ride up but is also immobilizing a part of you body. Plus it doesn't help when you need to tighten the harness because it compresses the front pad to the back rigid harness, you need a minimum compression on the hips too.
POWERBAND is the solution, it is only 9-10cm tall to avoid immobilization of the body, it has good stiffness in the back area but some flex in the hips area.
POWERBAND is compatible with almost all waist harnesses and when you tighten it creates a rigid ring that limits ride up and distributes pull around your back.

You also mention something that has no meaning to me:
3 D = contoured concave and convex in the around your back = Ride Engine
I say again, how can you wear a rigid shell around your body that follow exactly his shape when the pull forces will try to rotate it loosing this "benefit". Plus between the shell and the body you have 2-3cm of foam, so what are we talking about?
See the image published on German OASE.COM forum (Germans go deeply into technical matter) about RideEngine, it is self explanatory. POWERBAND inside a waist harness reacts differently.



Finally rigidity works also thanks to sliding hook system (rigid harness with fixed hook doesn't seem to have success) and without any doubt 8 years ago JAY was the first company to introduce a commercial product into the kitesurfing market. The picture below shows that RE solved the problem, this is really low level marketing for cooks... If you listen the interview made by TheKiteboarder magazine their claim is more evident of this picture.




I'm sure these few words are clarifying all your doubt and weakening your certainties.

my two ctv. After reading the post I checked the rope. It look good but not the inserts. see attached picture. I have stopped using the dynbar until I get the inserts from ???? don't know yet. Kitepower doesn't have them on their webpage.

I should gotten spare inserts when I purchased the dynabar.
I have the version 7 dynabar
the holes look ok. No sharp edges.

now I am back to a regular hock and I hate it.









cheers

It doesn't need to be any more complicated than this

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DimiSUP said..

theWaterBoy said..
It doesn't need to be any more complicated than this...

At least it needs a sliding ring.

The friction will wear the plastic tubing of the CL soon or later and most CL are relatively expensive and not easy to find. The decision of the RE team to promote their sliding solution without a ring/pulley is beyond my comprehension.



When you dump the hook you gain two more benefits:
1. You eliminate the possibility your lines to tangle with the hook during wipeout.
2. You can comfortably paddle your surfboard without the risk to ding it.

With the RE metal sliding bar you can still catch a line or ding your board with its hook-like ends and because of them it is NOT compatible with any other harness on the market except their own.

I still think rings are too thin and don't spread the load enough, but I seem to be the only person wearing out CLs so just ignore me.

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DimiSUP said..

theWaterBoy said..
It doesn't need to be any more complicated than this...

At least it needs a sliding ring.

The friction will wear the plastic tubing of the CL soon or later and most CL are relatively expensive and not easy to find. The decision of the RE team to promote their sliding solution without a ring/pulley is beyond my comprehension.



When you dump the hook you gain two more benefits:
1. You eliminate the possibility your lines to tangle with the hook during wipeout.
2. You can comfortably paddle your surfboard without the risk to ding it.

With the RE metal sliding bar you can still catch a line or ding your board with its hook-like ends and because of them it is NOT compatible with any other harness on the market except their own.

Some customers and resellers asked us to make an adapter to attach DYNABAR to RE harness. I think it is possible using the RE webbing after removing the PA tube. See picture below. What I'm not sure of is how much load the harness plastic buckle can support with this setup (different angles), maybe someone here can test it.

I still think the Ronstan are too small too I'd like something with at least a 50mm diamter curve...

What are the dimensions of the pulley shown above ^^^^^^ & how much is it as a spare part ?

^^^^^ maybe someone here can test it.

While your at it - it would be interesting to see how much load the 20mm RE buckle can handle as well?
Looks a bit 'small'?!

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Absolutbeginer said...
Ride engine looks good, plus what looks like wallet friendly pricing.
Why is the Jay product so expensive?

Why a Ferrari is so expensive? ;)

A RE fixed hook costs 61$ and sliding rope 61$ .
dynabar XT V8 costs 99$ but you get many options:
Fixed hook, slider dyneema, sliding hook, hook locker for pivoting hook,
hook locker for CL connection, dyneema release system, 1-2 belt hook buckle
ring for kite leash and cast in mould. You can add additional steel sliders.
Price 2009 99€ price 2016 99€.

It should cost a lot more...

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jaystore said..

Absolutbeginer said...
Ride engine looks good, plus what looks like wallet friendly pricing.
Why is the Jay product so expensive?

Why a Ferrari is so expensive? ;)

A RE fixed hook costs 61$ and sliding rope 61$ .
dynabar XT V8 costs 99$ but you get many options:
Fixed hook, slider dyneema, sliding hook, hook locker for pivoting hook,
hook locker for CL connection, dyneema release system, 1-2 belt hook buckle
ring for kite leash and cast in mould. You can add additional steel sliders.
Price 2009 99€ price 2016 99€.

It should cost a lot more...

I'd consider a Jay setup, but I really don't see the point of buying a bunch of hardware I will never use.
Why not sell it as bits or a full package so people can just choose what they want if they like?