Select to expand quoteRyan74 said..
Look man, I can't disagree that security should always be the priority and I'm really sorry to hear that. But it does not change the fact that the above statements are inaccurate and that there are much better ways to deal with this. Just go and provide your feedback to them! Who knows, you might learn something in the process ...
Hey Ryan you may learn something if you believe me.
I ended up in hospital because of them
Hi Ryan 74
What an amazing coincidence that a 2 post member who joined in October 2016 and only posted in this thread..just happens to be someone delighted with soul kite's teaching services....
Mr Full of .... You wouldn't be affiliated with the soul kite business by any chance?
Your justification of a class being taught in winter squall/frontal conditions is the biggest crock I have ever heard.
You your mates and your shonky kite school should pack up and ...
Onshore or south western doesn't matter. Can't go by predicted forecasts. The graphs done lie and schools should not be teaching in those conditions. Especially so close to shore. Melville is gusty even in a true seabreeze. Those that know me know I am not a competitor nor want to open a school there. I am a local that has had run in with these blowin instructors who don't want to listen . I know the ins and outs of how licences work as I was have done my research. All I am doing is looking out for the general public who don't know better. This school should know better than to teach in these conditions.
Guys, I agree we should keep a spot safe from hazards, and that can easily be fixed by talking to someone from the school. Melville is a great spot and it would be pity if the council decided to close it.
Select to expand quotejoedarra said..
Guys, I agree we should keep a spot safe from hazards, and that can easily be fixed by talking to someone from the school. Melville is a great spot and it would be pity if the council decided to close it.
have you tried talking to these guys ?
Hi Dusta,
I havent, and i will pay attention next time i see them,,, but im only concern about the fact that melville is the ONLY spot where a student can learn safely, with no waves and relatively shallow water....... Is not about closing one school, is about the council will end up making a desition regarless of the company operating there! And will close the spot, affecting everyone else. As you said, safety goes first, but as a fellow kitesurfer I believe you should give them a chance to amend any issues with their operating standars!!
Select to expand quoteSubculture said...eppo said..
Bringing up sprod is fcking poor form. He was a good experienced Kiter who made his own decision has got nothing to do with a ****ty kite school operating in stupid conditions.
Couldn't agree more eppo. Well said. That whole post by dbabicwa was devoid of logic.
dusta - Excellent thread, well overdue. That 'school' has been operating irresponsibly for too long.
dave.... Excellent post too. Every point, spot on. What a pity that the majority of beginners will not read it before trying to choose a school; therefore 'flying blind'..
cauncy - Regarding giving them a warning, if you'd been in the metro area for the last few years, you'd know the 'school' in concern has been witnessed using unsafe practice and operating in a fashion that seriously threatens access on the river - for far too long. They are way past any warning. They ignore anything that is said to them in that regard. As dusta and others have said, approaching them to 'warn' them of what they are doing has no effect. Their usual response is quoted above by others. They are arrogant in the extreme and show complete lack of respect for a privilege granted to operate in the area by Melville Council. Looking at information available to the public, the permission granted appears to have been given under misinformed circumstances also.
Thankfully not a metro Hetro
Looks a pretty crap spot as in proximity of hazards imho, also it's fair to say locals would prefer their local spot to themselves and free of distractions, I'd say some of that is fuel, as it'd give me the shifts, no excuses though to be teaching in dangerousness conditions, but it'd be hard to know when a gust or surge of wind mid lessons, imho those with a real concern would be best approaching the business proprietor and air your concerns, if they continue then it's time for authorities to air their concerns, if they ignore that , then they'll possibly lose their permits to teach at said venue
How times have changed
I used to love seeing a newbie getting dragged up the beach, back in the day I had a few myself
Dear Ryan, your kite school is going down. You can't stop it now, this is happening. Dusta, no point wasting your time talking to muppets that work at the Melville council re this, you need to speak to Councillors themselves and make a submission to speak at the next council meeting. These meetings are attended by the Mayor and Councillors, it is where the real action happens. Anything else is a waste of time mate....
....... Dusta, if you get to a meeting and make a well presented argument/complaint, it gets recorded in the minutes. If an accident then happens it looks very bad for the Council. I think you'll find something will be done, the Mayor nor Councillors will want an accident that is waiting to happen to come back on them for their inactivity if nothing is done. I reckon you can check-mate them into having to punt these clowns and revoke their permit.
Select to expand quotejoedarra said..
Hi Dusta,
I havent, and i will pay attention next time i see them,,, but im only concern about the fact that melville is the ONLY spot where a student can learn safely, with no waves and relatively shallow water....... Is not about closing one school, is about the council will end up making a desition regarless of the company operating there! And will close the spot, affecting everyone else. As you said, safety goes first, but as a fellow kitesurfer I believe you should give them a chance to amend any issues with their operating standars!!
they should have amended their operating standards after teaching in early morning gusty easterlies when a student of their very nearly had a crippling accident
sorry to weigh in here. as i have no real information on the incident at all.
my only affiliation with soulkite was a couple skype interviews when considering who to work for in WA some years ago so you can consider me as reasonably impartial.
general rule is no instructor should be or even WANT to be teaching in anything other then 10-25 knots.
there are times where a first lesson will be done in 8knots due to time constraints and overall eagerness of the student.
there are also times when you will have a reasonably developed student who requests to do a lesson in strong wind which may be 27 knots, this sort of student may have already completed a full course and just wants reassurance that when they do go out in high winds theyll be able to handle it.
now with that in mind it is also up to every individual instructor to make the call on theyre lesson. that is they're job and roll.
IF we were to find out soul kite as a school FORCED theyre instructor to teach in winds above 30 knots then sure bring out the torches but i honestly highly doubt that. having spoken to most the schools in WA they all seem quite professional and very very weary of each other. there seems to be a strong competitive nature with stories of some schools taking photos of other schools and reporting each other etc. definitely some murky water situations.
with all this in mind i would think you should all be focusing your attention a little more on the individual case at hand and the instructor and the actual student. not to tar and feather them in the stocks but first to see if anyone was not fully aware of the situation. chances are the student was frothing they're nut off and the instructor would have been reassuring "are you sure you dont want to go in?!? while secretly wanting to call off the lesson so he can go kite for himself"
i know as an instructor myself i call off all lessons at 25knots reschedule and excitedly say sorry but time for me to kite now and get a good session in for myself.
the little bit of money extra the instructor would have made and loss of a personal sesh AND this level of bad publicity is certainly not worth it that is why i think they're may be more to the situation then we all know. and the only 2 who do would be the student and the instructor and possibly school manager.
oh and teaching students in 30 knots is basicly impossible, what did you guys say it was? 40? was it a 7m kite on 15m lines? judgeing from the photo dusta provided the water does not look like any 40knots i have ever seen but i was not there so i will take his word for it.
Please not this is not a one off occurence . . . It has been posted b4 by me the above mentioned teaching in 30 + onshore. . . . Where the poor learner was dropong his kite on the shoreline in a direct westerly. . . . So is this a one off mistake but soul I don't think so. . . . . Are they doing the sport and melville any favours I think not. . .
This is not a one off and nothing seems to change
does not look good
so have you asked soul kite who the instructor was? and who the student was?
as for my OPINION on if that photo looks like 40 knots or not. well as i said i was not theyre so ill take your word for it but here is a pretty well known guide as to what wind strengths look like aka the beaufort scale www.bom.gov.au/lam/glossary/beaufort.shtml
8Gale63 - 75 km/h34-40 knotsTwigs break off trees; progress generally impeded.Moderately high waves of greater length; edges of crests begin to break into spindrift; foam is blown in well-marked streaks along the direction of the wind.
more pictures will always help
Select to expand quoteMiser said..
does not look good
so have you asked soul kite who the instructor was? and who the student was?
as for my OPINION on if that photo looks like 40 knots or not. well as i said i was not theyre so ill take your word for it but here is a pretty well known guide as to what wind strengths look like aka the beaufort scale www.bom.gov.au/lam/glossary/beaufort.shtml
Quite aware of the beaufort scale but i will take real time wind measurements any day of the week . Fremantle sea rescue have a wind meter at the fremantle port , there is a wind meter to the north of melville beach out in the river , So i will go by what those wind meters say .
This school has been approached many times and it's always been agressive responses by the school and the instructors . They are all blowin euro instructors .
lets also look at the fact no other reputable school was out teaching in those conditions and most sailing events were cancelled for the day .
Select to expand quotecauncy said..GMkal said...
Hi All
If people have concerns about a kiteboarding school we appreciate being notified of them directly to contact@kiteboardingaus.com
We have a complaints procedure we follow in relation to kiteboarding schools and will act upon verifiable and formal complaints.
We are now accrediting schools and will withhold and/or suspend or refuse accreditation and support with local government where appropriate.
Cheers
Alexandra | General Manager
Kiteboarding Australia Limited
So have iko granted you authority to do this or do you bypass them and have permits withdrawn by shires/ local authorities
Surely they'd get a warning 1st and if they didn't improve practices then they'd have their accreditation or permit withdrawn
Hi Cauncy
We are not associated with IKO (a commercial company) but have now created and rolled out an Australian training system. As the not-for-profit peak governing body for the sport in Australia, we have a responsibility to grow the sport of kiting and part of that is providing professional training and lessons to those wanting to get involved.
Schools get their permits directly from councils/shires/local authorities and this is a requirement of being an accredited KA School. We may choose to sanction an accredited school on the basis of a verifiable complaint that the school is not complying with the requirements of a KA School. The first step is of course by warning them. The second step is removing accreditation and informing the council.
In addition, in some areas we have an agreement in place that sets out what "reasonable teaching conditions" are for that location, we can act on that basis to determine if we sanction the school.
I hope that answers your question.
Alexandra
Select to expand quoteGMkal said...cauncy said..GMkal said...
Hi All
If people have concerns about a kiteboarding school we appreciate being notified of them directly to contact@kiteboardingaus.com
We have a complaints procedure we follow in relation to kiteboarding schools and will act upon verifiable and formal complaints.
We are now accrediting schools and will withhold and/or suspend or refuse accreditation and support with local government where appropriate.
Cheers
Alexandra | General Manager
Kiteboarding Australia Limited
So have iko granted you authority to do this or do you bypass them and have permits withdrawn by shires/ local authorities
Surely they'd get a warning 1st and if they didn't improve practices then they'd have their accreditation or permit withdrawn
Hi Cauncy
We are not associated with IKO (a commercial company) but have now created and rolled out an Australian training system. As the not-for-profit peak governing body for the sport in Australia, we have a responsibility to grow the sport of kiting and part of that is providing professional training and lessons to those wanting to get involved.
Schools get their permits directly from councils/shires/local authorities and this is a requirement of being an accredited KA School. We may choose to sanction an accredited school on the basis of a verifiable complaint that the school is not complying with the requirements of a KA School. The first step is of course by warning them. The second step is removing accreditation and informing the council.
In addition, in some areas we have an agreement in place that sets out what "reasonable teaching conditions" are for that location, we can act on that basis to determine if we sanction the school.
I hope that answers your question.
Alexandra
That is fantastic Alexandra, but the reality is in this instance this school won't lose their permit from the council if they aren't "Acredited". I doubt the Council even know who you or your organisation is. You can quote me on this - "the only way there'll be an outcome on this is if someone gets off their arse and gets to a council meeting, and this issue is raised in front of the people who make decisions and change". Everything else, and your "accreditation" is p*ss in the wind. Sorry to be harsh but it's true.
Select to expand quoteGMkal said..cauncy said..GMkal said...
Hi All
If people have concerns about a kiteboarding school we appreciate being notified of them directly to contact@kiteboardingaus.com
We have a complaints procedure we follow in relation to kiteboarding schools and will act upon verifiable and formal complaints.
We are now accrediting schools and will withhold and/or suspend or refuse accreditation and support with local government where appropriate.
Cheers
Alexandra | General Manager
Kiteboarding Australia Limited
So have iko granted you authority to do this or do you bypass them and have permits withdrawn by shires/ local authorities
Surely they'd get a warning 1st and if they didn't improve practices then they'd have their accreditation or permit withdrawn
Hi Cauncy
We are not associated with IKO (a commercial company) but have now created and rolled out an Australian training system. As the not-for-profit peak governing body for the sport in Australia, we have a responsibility to grow the sport of kiting and part of that is providing professional training and lessons to those wanting to get involved.
Schools get their permits directly from councils/shires/local authorities and this is a requirement of being an accredited KA School. We may choose to sanction an accredited school on the basis of a verifiable complaint that the school is not complying with the requirements of a KA School. The first step is of course by warning them. The second step is removing accreditation and informing the council.
In addition, in some areas we have an agreement in place that sets out what "reasonable teaching conditions" are for that location, we can act on that basis to determine if we sanction the school.
I hope that answers your question.
Alexandra
thanks for the answer, what would your criteria be in such an event, bksa schools are visited to ensure correct teaching is in place, will your group have such practices in place as this imho where iko fails, theres no threat of keeping your school in check, saying that theres some great iko teachers out there, for example exmouth kites head guy tom is very thourough in his methods , so it isnt the iko /bksa its the school owners who make the bookings and make the call dependant on conditions
regards mick caunce
@oldjenkins and marno - No, I'm not affiliated to the school. I just happen to know them like many people in the kite community... thanks for asking so politely.
@dusta -
1. not sure what you are trying to prove with these graphs. Yes there is a pattern: the wind on the river is ALWAYS gusty! The average wind is barely exceeding 20 knots. Again, what would you qualify as suitable conditions for teaching on the river knowing that a beginner would at least need 15 knots as a very minimum to practice the water start? What is YOUR solution? Should we close all schools on the river?? And let instructors with no permit, adequate gear or qualification take over? Huh?
2. you cant blame a school just because there has been an accident. The risk will NEVER be 0. What IS important is whether there has been negligence (no protective gear, not suitable conditions, etc) and whether the school has properly responded to the incident. As stated above, it seems that the situation was handled pretty well.
3. Don't waste your time speaking to the instructors. Go and speak with the owner. It's good to have people like you trying to improve the overall security on the spots and you might help the schools to improve but please choose the way you approach this wisely and with common sense.
Oh, by the way, I was also riding on that day and sorry to contradict you Dusta but other reputable schools were operating on that day (although it was on the ocean). The conditions were not different from any other normal summer days except that it was freezing. I had an excellent session, the best one of the season so far.
Lastly, your comment "They are all blowin euro instructors ." clearly indicates where the problem really is...
Select to expand quoteRyan74 said..
I usually don’t post anything on forums but I can’t just close my eyes on this… Can’t believe what I’m seeing.
I took lessons with Soulkite last season and it has been a fantastic experience. The staff is very friendly, passionate, qualified and professional. I do remember that the lessons were cancelled/rescheduled a couple of time as the conditions were not suitable. They check conditions and come on site first to assess if it is safe to run the lessons. They also assisted me even after my lessons for free to make sure my lines were set up properly. They kept an eye on me and provided advices as I progressed with my own gear.
In regards to the complains above and the subsequent witch hunt:
1) The wind was clearly not on shore but SW, it is obvious on the graph!
2) The forecast was 20-25 knots SW. If that is enough to cancel lessons, I would really question what can be qualified as suitable condition? Should the schools only operate within 15-20 knots? Do you guys realise how crazy does that sound?
3) Every rider in Perth know that the wind is not equally strong on the river (not sure where the seabreeze sensor is located?). It always tends to be less strong in the school zone. Again, I’m sure that they did assess the conditions and the danger for the gusts based on the equipment used for the lessons.
4) Are they breaking any regulation/rules?
5) The guys (or “diks that are not welcome newhere” according to Rads) in the “Before I die” video are not Soulkite staff; I know a few of them. They are just a bunch of friendly riders who want to have fun and promote the sport. Some of them - just like me – had a very good experience with Soulkite and want to support the school.
Dusta, you seem to be pretty determined to discredit and take them down. You also seem to know a lot about kite school permits and regulation. I would not be surprised if you were a competitor or someone planning to open a school in Melville. If not, I hope your intention are good but you should know that there are processes and rules in place to manage complaints. A post like this on a public forum can only lead to a witch hunt and deteriorate the overall spirit of the kite community. If you had what it takes (assuming you’re a male), instead of hiding behind your forum avatar, you would have gone and talk to the owner (their contact details is on the website) and have a normal discussion about what happened that they and why they did operate. My advice: you spend way too much time on this forum; get a life buddy and think about the consequences of your actions.
To Soulkite staff; if you read this: don’t pay attention to these clowns 
. You guys are doing a great job and a lot for the kite community!
somhting smells fishy lol
Select to expand quoteRyan74 said...
Lastly, your comment "They are all blowin euro instructors ." clearly indicates where the problem really is...
Some of the best recognised instructors in our state are euros & other nationalities
Bell end
Some quick replies:
@cauncy: thanks for the answer, what would your criteria be in such an event, bksa schools are visited to ensure correct teaching is in place, will your group have such practices in place as this imho where iko fails, theres no threat of keeping your school in check, saying that theres some great iko teachers out there, for example exmouth kites head guy tom is very thourough in his methods , so it isnt the iko /bksa its the school owners who make the bookings and make the call dependant on conditions regards mick caunce
- We are doing ad hoc inspections as we can (which I agree is a strength of BKSA v IKO). We are going to also require collection of all student names and surveying of students to ensure real insight into the schools day to day, not just what they want to show the inspector! Agree re school owners and KA seeks to ensure minimum standards are in place and we follow up all complaints seriously.
@marno: That is fantastic Alexandra, but the reality is in this instance this school won't lose their permit from the council if they aren't "Acredited". I doubt the Council even know who you or your organisation is. You can quote me on this - "the only way there'll be an outcome on this is if someone gets off their arse and gets to a council meeting, and this issue is raised in front of the people who make decisions and change". Everything else, and your "accreditation" is p*ss in the wind. Sorry to be harsh but it's true.
- We actually are really well known with the Melville Council and work with them fairly closely as this has been a bit of a "hot spot". We previously may not have been well known but in some areas (including in WA) councils are requiring all schools to have our accreditation, as they previously might have required IKO accreditation.
@livit: That's what we are doing! Help out by supporting the implementation of an Australian system (that also accommodates international instructors that bring a wealth of knowledge to our shores).
Feel free at any stage to give me a call on 0431 229 171 or at contact@kiteboardingaus.com.
Cheers
Alexandra | General Manager
Kiteboarding Australia
Select to expand quoteRyan74 said..
Oh, by the way, I was also riding on that day and sorry to contradict you Dusta but other reputable schools were operating on that day (although it was on the ocean). The conditions were not different from any other normal summer days except that it was freezing. I had an excellent session, the best one of the season so far.
WHat time were you out riding ryan ?
9:30am at melville ?
and livit big difference to a seasoned kiter such as yourself and a learner who doesn't know how to handle themselves in strong winds .
and the blowin euro comment is exactly that , big difference to the euro's and other nationalities who are residents and stay here more than a summer .
Hi Guys,
With respect to the calling off of a lesson due to conditions, It is the instructor's job to call off a lesson if they feel the conditions are unsafe. The School manager can always override an instructor and call a halt to lessons if they deem it to be unsafe but never the other way around. A school manager shouldn't EVER force an instructor to begin a lesson or to continue teaching in what the instructor thinks are unsafe conditions.
In our school we have an automatic cut off at around 30 knots regardless. Once the wind is repeatedly spiking to 30 knots (not averaging) then the lesson is cancelled. We have terminated instructors for breaking this rule in the past.
Some schools that operate in strong wind locations in some parts of the world often teach in 30 knots and sometimes more. It is about risk management and the five below criteria. The lesson technique and equipment used would often differ to that of a school operating in lesser winds.
A strong wind lesson (above 25knots) should only proceed if:-
a) the instructor feels safe and confident (has experience in this wind strength).
b) the instructor feels that the student has the confidence and ability to handle the conditions (skill level and emotional strength)
c) the instructor feels the student will gain skills or experience or progress in the conditions (will progress).
d) the school has the equipment to enable a safe lesson (short lines, very small kite, helmets, life jackets etc)
e) conditions of the spot are safe, not onshore or offshore, not too gusty, enough downwind space to sort out a problem if there is a gear problem.
At the end of the day, you have to assess if you think the student will benefit from the lesson, if not, you have to ask why the lesson should go ahead.
The new Australian KAL system will have checks and balances which is one of the best things about it which will differentiate it from other schemes.
DM
With regards to all of the above and differing opinions, it would be great to know exactly what Soul Kite's response is to this topic. I have no doubt that they are aware of this thread and would have their own views.
We all f#ck up from time to time and likewise enjoy celebrating success. No one is immune from this process and naturally it is a humanistic characteristic.
Do I deserve an answer from them...well no of course not. But they have a business to operate and an income to generate. Bad press is no good for any business so in a sense a response from Soul Kite will/will not prevent me from recommending them in future.
Time to put this bear to rest.
This seems crazy the people complaining weren't even there, it looks to be sub 15 in the picture and sometimes the graphs are out given the location of the metering equipment, take Mandurah for example. If you see something wrong and walk away, you are just as bad as the person doing the wrong thing, no point beating your chest on the internet about it after. Couldn't talk to the guy! but had time to stop take a picture and put it on the internet............ To bad if that student did have an accident, if it was really dangerous you should have interviened, so couldn't have been that bad, here's an idea go for a kite! 
