AdfreeTv - Ive only had 2 goes on my foil which is the Spotz 2 (so maybe 2 hrs?) and I feel your pain !
My conditions have been far from perfect - 1st was 15 knots and choppy and the 2nd too light so just struggling to keep the kite flying.
Getting the board into position is a PITA after riding a surfboard for so long, but I'm getting my head around that .
I found that once up on the board and trying to 'surface ride' the board - it seems to have a mind of its own in terms of direction !! I realised that I was trying to control direction by leaning the board (changing weight rail to rail) similar to the surfboard and that just doesnt work!!! How have you got that direction control sorted ?? Ive read its more of a hip rotation or skate board approach ? Its driving me nuts that I stand up on the board and it starts to go one way and I go the other LOL - Grrr
Select to expand quoteAdfreetv said..
I am now about 7 hours in with 70% of that time spent just swimming to get in position for the water starts. I'm still not comfortable cruising with the board on the water. I can't stop looking at the board and the kite (not the horizon). I would buy the Cruiser if it will get me going soon/er?
Hi Adfree
You describe a couple of problems, each are different.
If you can halve the time spent in positioning that will make a lot difference to time on the water.
Can you describe what problems you encounter in positioning the board ?
Why is it taking so much time?
Someone will have an answer if we have more details ... whats giving you the ****s basically ?
In my case I wasted too much time in directly onshore conditions , having to find deep enough water constantly... about 4 hours... I vowed never to learn in those conditions when the penny finally dropped.
If every attempt takes you into shallow water then that's your problem. .... it is too onshore to learn efficiently in , you need more cross shore
Or it could be something else?
Its sounds like you have had some runs ? Well done !
I would say it is normal to be concentrating on the things you describe. That will pass as you get better and become more intuitive.
As Gorgo says , use a kite which will give you some lift , don't go underpowered in wind or kite. You don't want to be thinking too hard about the kite as there is enough going on with the foil.
The right condtions are so important.
Some cross shore and solid wind. Foiling is not confined to light wind, in fact I struggle in light winds and don't bother sub 10 knots. I'm too lazy 
It's great in solid wind. For me 15- 20 is perfect.
Yes the cruzer would be easier . It's a great foil and would have made my profession quicker but not to solve your problems with positioning which is an energy waster.
Tell us more ?
I have seen a few beginner foilers that tend to try and position boards straight across as they would aTT.
this seems to result in the board rounding up as they start.
the fin effect of the mast loves this and will help the round up happen.
try positioning the board to the side of you nose down wind opposite side to the direction you wish to start.
then front foot on or in keeping kite on same side of wind window as board.
then back foot in position or use knee first to push back of board to a distance to let you get back foot on.
then it is back to that perennial thing about kiteboarding, Kite Control.
during water start it's a bit like wakeboard start where you force board in the direction you want it to go by a good twist(yaw).
key points are
1. Kite control
2. Hope the direction you point is the right direction
"try positioning the board to the side of you nose down wind opposite side to the direction you wish to start.
then front foot on or in keeping kite on same side of wind window as board."
Well now Im even more confused !!
Select to expand quoteLambie said..
"try positioning the board to the side of you nose down wind opposite side to the direction you wish to start.
then front foot on or in keeping kite on same side of wind window as board."
Well now Im even more confused !!
Me too and I'm into my 3rd season of foilboarding. You can position a foilboard same as you would for a tt . As you start the nose will point more downwind/toward the kite.
When learning to waterstart key points are
1. Keep kite high.... between 11&1
This generates more uplift on your harness and less forward thrust.
2. Once you manage to lift yourself onto the board your position should be standing straight upright. Any edging at this stage will usually result in bad things.
I don't tend to point the board downwind when starting. I just position the board side on to the wind, get my feet on, then, keeping the kite high, sine it side to side (figure of 8) directly downwind of me. I will start getting pulled sideways downwind, and heel pressure keeps the board on it's edge and resisting the force of the kite as I come up out of the water. Once I'm up on to the board and balanced, I dive the kite to get forward motion happening and I'm away. This is how I start when I'm under or moderately powered. When over powered, just a normal dive of the kite is enough.
The only difference between a TT, surfboard or foil is the relative sensitivity to control inputs. A foil is simply far more sensitive and reactive to control inputs. You make exactly the same inputs, but you have to refine your feel so that you don't overdo it.
There is no special way to water start a foil. It is exactly the same as a TT. You just can't get away with stomping your feet and wanging the kite as much. You have to feel it a bit more. Be a bit less aggressive with the kite and more precise with rear foot placement. Put your back foot too far back and the leverage of the foil will amplify the force straight back at you.
The good news is that once you develop the feel then everything is the same. You can blast around and stomp a foil to your heart's content. The stronger reactions become a thing to enjoy and take advantage of rather than something to fear.
Sorry for confusing some.
i was suggesting a method for a particular problem that could work for those that have a problem with the board rounding up on takeoff.
For those of us with lack of youth and flexibility and Christmas beer gut syndrome it also is a method that may help.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
The only difference between a TT, surfboard or foil is the relative sensitivity to control inputs. A foil is simply far more sensitive and reactive to control inputs. You make exactly the same inputs, but you have to refine your feel so that you don't overdo it.
There is no special way to water start a foil. It is exactly the same as a TT. You just can't get away with stomping your feet and wanging the kite as much. You have to feel it a bit more. Be a bit less aggressive with the kite and more precise with rear foot placement. Put your back foot too far back and the leverage of the foil will amplify the force straight back at you.
The good news is that once you develop the feel then everything is the same. You can blast around and stomp a foil to your heart's content. The stronger reactions become a thing to enjoy and take advantage of rather than something to fear.
That's a very good way of putting it. It is no different to a TT or SB but far more sensitive to initial set up errors such as board angle, foot position or what part of the window you send the kite through when water starting. Then the errors are magnified and most of the time you can't muscle your way out of it when things start going pear shaped. The foil will always win. You just have to bite the bullet, re-set and start again.
Thanks 'Team Larry David' for all your great input.
To be more specific, the main problem is my location and I can't or won't change that. It's an ocean beach with up to 5 lines of small to medium breakers to get through (about 50m) before I am out the back and deep enough to start. It is a nice curved and sandy beach but with the wind blowing cross-shore I only get about 5 starts before I am blown downwind into the curve of the beach and the breakers again. I do about 2 or 3 walks of shame a session and repeat the process. So this is why I originally thought the smaller mast would help.
So - I can now body drag out, start by rolling up onto the top of the board with as little power as possible and then dribble along a bit before something goes tits up. My record is about 100M maybe 2 sessions ago
. What happens is that I don't feel comfortable cruising with the board flat on the water. We porpoise and nose dive and I feel I should be further forward. I am using a lot of kite input to control my speed (too fast then too slow (very ham-fisted)) so I can't take my front hand off the bar and open my body to the direction of travel like I know I should. My board is the 132cm smaller J Shapes board and I feel that my front foot strap is not far enough forward but I also think I need more nose (bigger board) to help with the nose dives. With my back foot just in front of the mast (or on the front mast screw) and my front foot in the front strap, I feel like my feet are too close together?? I think that this is my major issue.
So - we do have some progression but it's now been some time since my best 100m run (where I did get my front hand off the bar and kept the kite still-ish).
In for a penny, in for a pound - based on these reviews of the Cruiser, I think I better get one.
Cheers Team - we will get there
Select to expand quoteAdfreetv said..
Thanks 'Team Larry David' for all your great input.
To be more specific, the main problem is my location and I can't or won't change that. It's an ocean beach with up to 5 lines of small to medium breakers to get through (about 50m) before I am out the back and deep enough to start. It is a nice curved and sandy beach but with the wind blowing cross-shore I only get about 5 starts before I am blown downwind into the curve of the beach and the breakers again. I do about 2 or 3 walks of shame a session and repeat the process. So this is why I originally thought the smaller mast would help.
So - I can now body drag out, start by rolling up onto the top of the board with as little power as possible and then dribble along a bit before something goes tits up. My record is about 100M maybe 2 sessions ago. What happens is that I don't feel comfortable cruising with the board flat on the water. We porpoise and nose dive and I feel I should be further forward. I am using a lot of kite input to control my speed (too fast then too slow (very ham-fisted)) so I can't take my front hand off the bar and open my body to the direction of travel like I know I should. My board is the 132cm smaller J Shapes board and I feel that my front foot strap is not far enough forward but I also think I need more nose (bigger board) to help with the nose dives. With my back foot just in front of the mast (or on the front mast screw) and my front foot in the front strap, I feel like my feet are too close together?? I think that this is my major issue.
So - we do have some progression but it's now been some time since my best 100m run (where I did get my front hand off the bar and kept the kite still-ish).
In for a penny, in for a pound - based on these reviews of the Cruiser, I think I better get one.
Cheers Team - we will get there
Hi Adfree. It sounds like you have multiple challenges.
Most of your time is spent body dragging out and then in and then out again. Very time consuming and inefficient.
You need to be somewhere (just a few times ) which can give you the chance to get those first few winner runs without other challenges. Then it will come together much more quickly.
Your 100 metre run then needs to be repeated many times ... kite control and board control need to all come together in a step by step process ....but that will take lots of repetition .... even without changing your gear for better options.
I had SO many stacks. 100s
That's a choice for you and probably your biggest constraint at the moment on that gear . It's sounds like a nice spot to foil once you get going ??
I learnt on the 155 ...and reckon it would be more difficult on that shorter board as it wont give you as much stability ... and I don't know if the front foot straps are closer to the mast which would add to your problems.
Maybe others who know will comment.
I am only just starting to see that I don't need as much board after a year on the jshapes as now I am proficient I guess.
The cruzer foil will make it easier . It's less reactive and more balanced than the free ride one. But I still love riding the freeride foil also.
There is so much info about controllling the ride with body positioning.
My bit of advice to control the porpoising to start with is ...before you first sine the kite .... take a moderate forward body position , bent front knee and hips forward ... that way you are already forward when you get up.
Even if you have your back foot in front of the mast your upper body could still be leaning back against the kite causing the porpoising.
Getting forward after you are up can be tricky as it feels counter intuitive.
Leaning back against the kite is something we take for granted on sbs or tts. It kills you when learning to foil.
You have to get used to standing up fairly straight and in line with the mast or it throws the balance out. Head placement is fairly critical to this.
I imagined I was balancing on a small platform using the kite to help me stay fairly upright until board speed got to the point where the foil would start to fly.
Hope that helps a little.
Cheers.
The open the body thing is a myth. The kite and the board don't care which way your chest is facing. You don't have to do it to go upwind. The foil will do that for you by itself. In fact, if you get up on the board and just slog along on the surface you will end up more upwind than you are comfortable with. As well as being a hydrofoil, it is also the mother of all fins. You will go upwind even when you don't want to if you just stay standing and slogging along.
Learning on a 135cm board could be a bit challenging. My 155 is like an aircraft carrier. You can stand around on it and look at the view.Select to expand quoteWhat happens is that I don't feel comfortable cruising with the board flat on the water.
That is probably your real problem. You task is to get comfortable. The discomfort is in your head (and possibly in your feet).Select to expand quoteI feel like my feet are too close together??
As long as both feet are forward of the mast then the board should not porpoise. You may have to move your head and shoulders forward too.
While I think of it, what do you mean by "porpoise"? The big problem learning to foil is "bunny hops". The foil comes up, clears the water, then slams down. That is bad. You should not even be close to that. I read "porpoising" as rising up and dropping down. That is not desirable but it should not be disastrous.
I know we've all said use a smaller kite, but at your stage you probably need a bigger kite so you can have some power and lift and not have to sine the kite. You only want a small kite once you are comfortably riding around on the board.
The purpose of all this riding around flat is to get your body used to the sensations that are coming in. Even riding flat the foil generates lift and eventually you will be able to feel that lift. Once you can feel what the foil is doing, then actual foiling is relatively easy.
I would focus on avoiding all the tits up moments. Just get yourself vertical and noodle along. Slow and steady. Just slog. Stay in control.
Keep at it. It is so worth it in the end. Roberto, Paul and I can do it. There are guys learning to foil all over the place and some of them are major kooks. If other people can do it then you can too.
PS I am just back from a hoot of a session. 20-25+ knots. Big bay waves. Cruzer foil. 5m kite. Bliss!
