Select to expand quotesuperlizard said..bjw said..
If you choose NOT to take the vaccine....
then someone catches it from you and their mother or child (with an existing condition) dies from it, make sure you feel responsible.
I totally acknowledge your positive intention to save lives and minimise risks in the community, however this is not as simple though.
First, you could apply this analogy for every flu to date, and say everyone must always take every possible vaccine, as any kind of flu could potentially cause death to a vulnerable person with an existing condition.
Then you could go further and say, spending money on anything unnecessary (alcohol, cigarettes, unnecessary gadgets etc etc) is causing children in 3rd world countries to die because that money and resources could have been spent to buy them food. That should make pretty much everyone feel responsible!!??
Then you could go further and say, illnesses and vulnerabilities are passed down from parents/ancestors... hence anyone not living a healthy lifestyle is responsible for passing down corrupted genetic code to their offspring. Anyone living unhealthy lifestyle should feel responsible??
The only way you can really make anyone feel guilty about not taking a vaccine is if it can be proven with 100% certainty that the vaccine is not going to cause any short/long term negative side-effects/harm to anyone who takes it. And on top of that make companies producing these responsible/liable for their product (as you would expect for just about anything you buy these days). For instance, I've tried a flu shot little while ago, and had the worst year of health (with respect to viruses and flus) in my life. Since then I've never taken a vaccine, and been 10 years now, and not one single flu (whilst being exposed to public transport and office environment full of people every day). Should I feel guilty about not taking a vaccine now? I'm not arguing that all vaccines are bad. I'm just saying, it's not for everyone... hence you can't make a blanket rule with it... or make everyone feel guilty about not taking it.
However, there are ways of protecting each other... i.e. stay home if you are sick.. wear mask... live healthy lifestyle.
There's a million things that you do for society which don't benefit you directly, eg you don't carry a gun, don't drive at 160 in a school zone, dont throw your garbage out the window, pay taxes, dont talk too loudly on your mobile on a crowded train, taking a CoViD vaccine should be one of those as well. Flu shots are not about erradication, rather just self protection of the vulnerable , eg elderly or kids. Between 20 and 50yo they're advised but not totally necessary. The CT nuts may argue otherwise but CoViD is more dangerous and herd immunity/erradication is more necessary. As you might know, flu viruses are too many to immunise totally for, they change every year and so virtually impossible to erradicate. The flu I don't think is even just one virus, but many different types.
It's a fact that there's no way to convince everyone to vaccinate, as there are some 'specially gifted' people with more knowledge than the rest of us regarding Bill Gates and special chips to monitor us, but it's pretty poor form if rational people can't do something for the common good.
Select to expand quoteHunter S said..
^ AFAIK the flu vaccine is an inactivated virus. There are all sorts of vaccines. Doubt the plan is to inject people with stuff to make them ill, but people are free to believe whatever.
Yeah an inactivated virus makes sense. I didnt mean they would do it on purpose to get everyone sick. To be honest i have a habit of posting on here after a few beers so hopefully i dont come across as too much of a "Cockwomble" (refer to funny images thread page 484).
Select to expand quoteKiteWindnSurf said..superlizard said..bjw said..
If you choose NOT to take the vaccine....
then someone catches it from you and their mother or child (with an existing condition) dies from it, make sure you feel responsible.
I totally acknowledge your positive intention to save lives and minimise risks in the community, however this is not as simple though.
First, you could apply this analogy for every flu to date, and say everyone must always take every possible vaccine, as any kind of flu could potentially cause death to a vulnerable person with an existing condition.
Then you could go further and say, spending money on anything unnecessary (alcohol, cigarettes, unnecessary gadgets etc etc) is causing children in 3rd world countries to die because that money and resources could have been spent to buy them food. That should make pretty much everyone feel responsible!!??
Then you could go further and say, illnesses and vulnerabilities are passed down from parents/ancestors... hence anyone not living a healthy lifestyle is responsible for passing down corrupted genetic code to their offspring. Anyone living unhealthy lifestyle should feel responsible??
The only way you can really make anyone feel guilty about not taking a vaccine is if it can be proven with 100% certainty that the vaccine is not going to cause any short/long term negative side-effects/harm to anyone who takes it. And on top of that make companies producing these responsible/liable for their product (as you would expect for just about anything you buy these days). For instance, I've tried a flu shot little while ago, and had the worst year of health (with respect to viruses and flus) in my life. Since then I've never taken a vaccine, and been 10 years now, and not one single flu (whilst being exposed to public transport and office environment full of people every day). Should I feel guilty about not taking a vaccine now? I'm not arguing that all vaccines are bad. I'm just saying, it's not for everyone... hence you can't make a blanket rule with it... or make everyone feel guilty about not taking it.
However, there are ways of protecting each other... i.e. stay home if you are sick.. wear mask... live healthy lifestyle.
There's a million things that you do for society which don't benefit you directly, eg you don't carry a gun, don't drive at 160 in a school zone, dont throw your garbage out the window, pay taxes, dont talk too loudly on your mobile on a crowded train, taking a CoViD vaccine should be one of those as well. Flu shots are not about erradication, rather just self protection of the vulnerable , eg elderly or kids. Between 20 and 50yo they're advised but not totally necessary. The CT nuts may argue otherwise but CoViD is more dangerous and herd immunity/erradication is more necessary. As you might know, flu viruses are too many to immunise totally for, they change every year and so virtually impossible to erradicate. The flu I don't think is even just one virus, but many different types.
It's a fact that there's no way to convince everyone to vaccinate, as there are some 'specially gifted' people with more knowledge than the rest of us regarding Bill Gates and special chips to monitor us, but it's pretty poor form if rational people can't do something for the common good.
Yes, and most of those things you mentioned that we do that indirectly benefit others do not cause any harm to us. But if you are forced to do something that benefits others, but also causes you harm - the ethics of that is not clear cut any more. At no point did I mention bill gates or conspiracies. In fact i never even read any conspiracies about vaccines. I'm just citing my personal experience. Gave it a shot, and had the worst health year on record. Used up all my sick leave and some annual leave that year to go through multiple flus and viruses. It cost me both health and financially wise. I mean, people can dismiss what I'm saying all they want... but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. I'm sure NOT everyone would have had the same results from the vaccine. Some may benefit from it. And that's my point - it's totally wrong to make/expect everyone to take it. And that's what the mainstream sentiment seems to be (to force it on all).
And in terms of doing good for the community... people can be so hypocritical. They think forcing a vaccine on everyone will solve all the world problems. By that logic, we should then introduce many other rules... let's start with banning alcohol, because it causes death and domestic violence etc. Consider how many less deaths and abuse would happen world wide if we banned it. Would you agree to that for the good of community? In the end, vaccine may be safe for some (I say "may", as i haven't done my own research in the lab so i can't guarantee with 100% certainty - neither can any of you unless you worked in the vaccine lab)... but we often neglect to address the humanity health issues holistically, and think that quick bandage solutions will solve all the problems. Anyway, that's my opinion, as I've found from experience, nothing can beat following a healthy life style...
some of the vaccines you could take before going to indonesia
Cholera, Rabies, insect borne diseases (malaria), avian flu and typhoid
did any one ever take these in the last few years? It used to be common 20-30 years ago to have a few shots before going on a trip.
maybe add covid
I'm pretty excited for a vaccine to be released. It's amazing to me how a bunch of smart people can band together across the planet to come up with a answer to a disease that has killed a million people while the rest of us carry on with our lives. I get forced by my work to get the flu shot every year and get between 2-5 boosters and needles in total (job involves a lot of travel).
I havent had a sick day off in fourteen years (and no I dont go to work sick either).
I reckon I have a pretty good chance of surviving COVID unscathed if infected but what the hell I'll just get the vaccine when it comes out. The goverment/Bill Gates would get pretty bored tracking my activities. 
Select to expand quoteawkward customer said..
I'm pretty excited for a vaccine to be released. It's amazing to me how a bunch of smart people can band together across the planet to come up with a answer to a disease that has killed a million people while the rest of us carry on with our lives. I get forced by my work to get the flu shot every year and get between 2-5 boosters and needles in total (job involves a lot of travel).
I havent had a sick day off in fourteen years (and no I dont go to work sick either).
I reckon I have a pretty good chance of surviving COVID unscathed if infected but what the hell I'll just get the vaccine when it comes out. The goverment/Bill Gates would get pretty bored tracking my activities.
Ironically enough, perhaps paradoxically, early evidence suggests you've a better chance with Covid if your t cells have been exposed to previous coronaviruses.
