Select to expand quotePaddles B'mere said..
Well TonyAbbott, in true "what came first, the chicken or the egg" spirit ........................ if you want cheap labour you need to provide cheap housing ............................. How's that been going for you guys? Any progress yet?
Interest rates are down
Good time to buy
^^^^ The economy is powering along because of fantastic economic policy like that TA ..................... so how do you get cheap labour again?
Crying about labour costs in the Australian car industry is ludicrous. They were so heavilly subsidised by the Australian tax payer the cost of labour was essentially covered. Yet they still couldn't survive. The problem was leadership, not labour.
Select to expand quoteTonyAbbott said..bazz61 said..TonyAbbott said..
It's all the unions fault
You Lieberals wrecked a car industry , wrecked a CO2 reduction scheme , now wrecking an economy, all this in less than a decade , what actually have you achieved other than housing bubbles ...and tax cuts ... 
The unions milked too much from the car manufacturers. Became too costly to make cars here. Liberals just stopped wasting tax payers money.
The greens wrecked the carbon tax
The economy is ok, could be better if the cost of government was not so large.
It makes me wonder... if you told the public that you had a business, which you treat as a black box, where you funnelled x amount of dollars into it, and at the other end you would get 2 times x out of it in tax receipts, would they go for it?
Now call the same blackbox 'the local car industry', would we get an identical response? Only the name has changed....
Select to expand quoteTonyAbbott said..Paddles B'mere said..
Well TonyAbbott, in true "what came first, the chicken or the egg" spirit ........................ if you want cheap labour you need to provide cheap housing ............................. How's that been going for you guys? Any progress yet?
Interest rates are down
Good time to buy
Sadly I think your 'should be a joke' mirrors the real Tony Abbott's expected response.
Housing affordability? Cheap interest rates are surely good for them... unless you consider it increases price rises...
Therin lies the problem Shifu. Subsidies create inefficiencies and inefficiency makes you uncompetitive. Cheap labour removes the need for subsidy. Labour cost reflects the cost of living and the lion's share of the cost of living is housing expense. Fiscal policy is to promote wealth by real estate speculation (through negative gearing as taxation policy) and real estate speculation creates inflation in real estate values and it's back to government policy. So if she weighs as much as a duck ................... she's a witch 
Reality check guys....every car industry in the world is subsidised by governments...why ? Apex manurfacturing creates jobs, attracts investment and promotes technology development. Mercedes and BMW are highly subsidised by the german government to keep the jobs and tech in their country on not China or Vietnam. Economic theory is great but in the real world if you don't support it you lose it.
We will be a banana republic very soon.https://www.motoring.com.au/secret-german-auto-subsidies-exposed-107275/
What should government (liberal and labor, derrr) do? Pay for cars to be built that nobody buys? Stockpile them until we simply dump them in landfill coz recycling is not as cost effective as starting with new raw materials?
Environmental vandals!!!
Select to expand quotePugwash said..
What should government (liberal and labor, derrr) do? Pay for cars to be built that nobody buys? Stockpile them until we simply dump them in landfill coz recycling is not as cost effective as starting with new raw materials?
Environmental vandals!!!
My opinion is that the car makers also needed to play ball, and come up with a good strategy for making a single model here, but selling it across world markets.
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said..Pugwash said..
What should government (liberal and labor, derrr) do? Pay for cars to be built that nobody buys? Stockpile them until we simply dump them in landfill coz recycling is not as cost effective as starting with new raw materials?
Environmental vandals!!!
My opinion is that the car makers also needed to play ball, and come up with a good strategy for making a single model here, but selling it across world markets.
Can't disagree with that... think they might have been scared by scale of local industry and investment required versus scale of industry in countries like Germany, Korea, Japan and even China as an emerging player in everything.
I wonder what investment was required to make the industry we had globally competitive or even globally relevant.
Select to expand quotePugwash said..FormulaNova said..Pugwash said..
What should government (liberal and labor, derrr) do? Pay for cars to be built that nobody buys? Stockpile them until we simply dump them in landfill coz recycling is not as cost effective as starting with new raw materials?
Environmental vandals!!!
My opinion is that the car makers also needed to play ball, and come up with a good strategy for making a single model here, but selling it across world markets.
Can't disagree with that... think they might have been scared by scale of local industry and investment required versus scale of industry in countries like Germany, Korea, Japan and even China as an emerging player in everything.
I wonder what investment was required to make the industry we had globally competitive or even globally relevant.
I am sure its one of those things like fishing, you need to try and coax your prey into range or they might get startled?
If the tariffs have been removed or reduced over the years to create a level playing field, and you spook a car manufacturer by not comitting to providing any subsidy in the future, what do they have to lose by moving off shore where it has already got a plant? Nothing.
Brand loyalty has just about disappeared. Subsidies disappeared. Then the government called their bluff, which wasn't actually a bluff but a rational business decision.
Looking back at it now, if the I were the business and the local market were telling me that they were just as happy with a Toyota, and I already made cars elsewhere, I wouldn't care about keeping a local manufacturing plant here either. Its just another headache I wouldn't need.
Just to get it straight...GM closed down Holden not the government. However it still baffles me that the Government did not want to keep a car industry or create an environment that would attract big multinational manurfacturing industry. The big players are who support and sustain all the second and third tier manurfacturing, encourage them to invest in tech and create a skilled workforce. Lose them and the house of cards topples.
But F it...we got **** to dig up and sell off for peanuts. who needs value adding.
And as for cars that nobody buys...when Holden ceased manurfacturing they had 3 cars in the top 10 sellers here ....no nobody bought them.
Select to expand quotemr love said..
Just to get it straight...GM closed down Holden not the government. However it still baffles me that the Government did not want to keep a car industry or create an environment that would attract big multinational manurfacturing industry. The big players are who support and sustain all the second and third tier manurfacturing, encourage them to invest in tech and create a skilled workforce. Lose them and the house of cards topples.
But F it...we got **** to dig up and sell off for peanuts. who needs value adding.
And as for cars that nobody buys...when Holden ceased manurfacturing they had 3 cars in the top 10 sellers here ....no nobody bought them.
Martin, its interesting in that people that claim 'no one buys them' have never really looked out at the cars that other people buy, but probably only at what they themselves buy. Today on the train trip in I saw the cars on the freeway and there were a mix of vehicles, and its not like everyone is driving a hatch or an SUV. There were just as many big sedans as anything else, yet some people think others don't buy them.
The government only care about short term rewards. If there are enough people out there that are not buying Holden or Ford, the voting public aren't going to be too vocal about it. A lot of readers of certain newspapers would be sitting there thinking 'why are they getting subsidies anyway, as I wouldn't run it like that', and ignore the economic reality of running a country. Its no wonder that this idiot understanding of economics has driven the political decisions.
'Nobody buys' might be a bit dramatic... would it be better to say a brand with long-term decreasing market share?
Rapidly decreasing Pugsy, you're being too kind. Car sales have slumped overall since the 2017 peak but Holden got flogged especially with Commodore sales.
Yay!! It's data time...
Some interesting stats and analysis re sales volumes here: www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/australian-car-market-car-sales-statistics-and-figures-70982
By 2019, Holden was "clinging" to 10th spot... and in November 2019, was not in the top 10 at all, with Merc out-selling Holden: www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/sales/vfacts-mercedes-outsells-holden/2019-12-04/80977.html
Select to expand quotePugwash said..
Yay!! It's data time...
Some interesting stats and analysis re sales volumes here: www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/australian-car-market-car-sales-statistics-and-figures-70982
By 2019, Holden was "clinging" to 10th spot... and in November 2019, was not in the top 10 at all, with Merc out-selling Holden: www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/sales/vfacts-mercedes-outsells-holden/2019-12-04/80977.html
I think we are seeing a change in demographic that changes the demand for certain marques.
I have been told its a stereotype for Indian people to want to buy Toyotos and particularly Corollas. I don't know how true this is but it was an Indian guy that told me this.
As for Mercedes, there are a lot of people that value the image that their car sells for them. I have heard stories of people buying these upmarket cars and only just being able to afford them, but to them its important.
Me, I am quite happy with the car that is old, reliable, nothing flash, a bit overweight, and struggles to walk up stairs... I might be blending my own characteristics there a bit instead of the cars.
.. but this is all probably affecting the value of the Holden and Ford brands. People here seem to have a negative view of those brands thinking that they are only 'taxis' and instead feel like they want to buy something European or Japanese to better reflect their individuality, like everyone else?
Perhaps in 10 years the GM and Ford brands will be better viewed as the stigma of being taxis is forgotten about and when 15 year old Mercs are commonly found on the side of the road after the imported radiator dies a sudden death or the person on welfare cannot afford the $500 to visit a Merc dealership to diagnose that his car needs a new fuel pump?
Personally I find it very unfair when people compare these sorts of things. A 10 year old Falcon will be cheap to maintain and run, but I am not sure I could say the same for European brands. I particularly get annoyed when people point out Commodores from the nineties that have broken down on the side of the road, and don't stop to think why there are no European cars from the 90s on the side of the road, most likely because they haven't lived that long.
Some people should get their facts right.
GM has sold off or closed down ALL their rh plants worldwide and announced they will no longer produce rh cars ( there goes the camaro). Holden was the last .They even sold Vauxhall ,a UK Holden to the poms for a million years , to the French last year or so. It's got nothing to do with subsidies . They also closed down some of their brands such as Buick since the gfc consolidating. Some say that closing the o/s plants has a lot to do with Trump and "bring back jobs to the US"
Perhaps we would have been better off if they sold off Holden years ago instead of being bribed to stay when they knew they were going to do what they did. What fools were we .
Some people should see that its not just one thing happening in isolation..
If Holden had still been manufacturing in aus because of subsidies, would they have been shut down too? Probably, but maybe that would also have been enough to justify keeping rhd cars? Who knows.
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said..
I
Its like asking for a futuristic house with space age insulation properties and able to withstand hurricanes, but cheaper than existing construction methods. It doesn't make sense.
probably quite do able
