Hello everyone. Great forum here, I am learning so much. I'm an advanced beginner I guess you'd say, I stay upwind both directions, have been doing lots of S-turns and carving downwind with the wing depowered to prepare learning gybes. I have some questions I would love some input on. For the record I'm a first time wind sporter, 80kg with gear, ride a 99L armstrong FG board with a 865 mast, 60 fuse, and have armstrong MA1225 and MA1475 foils. (I learned on a giant borrowed foil). Wind is 15-25mph in my area with decent chop.
My questions are:
1. Would you suggest learning to gybe on the 1475 or 1225? The 1475 has a lower stall speed which seems handy, but I feel like the 1225 glides better. I tried on both and typically stall or crash from too much roll.
2. I would really love to be able to go out when it's 10-15, it would double my days on the water. I have tried on the 1475 with my largest wing 5.5 and it is really painful. The internet tells me I could try a downwind foil board. I don't have much ability in my area to demo boards so if I order one I'd be taking a bit of a flyer. My question is jumping to a 95L-ish DW board for light days that's 19" or 20" wide -- is this going to be too narrow for me (my FG board is 28" wide)? Should I shoot for something more like 23-24"?
3. Last question! When I'm taxiing with the wind chop / swell I often get rolled off my FG board. Like a lot. Is it possible that I have too much float and it's causing it to be corky and I might've been better at only +10 to my weight? This is just an academic question, I'm just wondering.
Thanks in advance, you guys are great.
Gday MSD,
Conditions are a big factor in learning to gybe. If it's rough (which it sounds like it is), then you'll find it difficult regardless of foil. There are benefits in slow lifty foils with low stall speed, but also glidey foils that make the action smoother. I've found the slower foils have a tendancy to get affected by chop more than the glidey foils. I'd suggest find somewhere with flatter water if you can. It'll make a big difference. If you're rolling too much, maybe check foot position? Are you putting too much weight on the inside of the board? Hard to know without seeing....
Also, what is your toeside riding like? Have you got it down pat? If you haven't, then it's something worth getting proficient with as it will help entry and exits. You don't want to be changing foot position mid gybe.
Re DW boards, it's hard to tell. Really depends on your level of ability and determination. On the surface I'd suggest what you're trying will be pretty challenging. I'd also add that the conditions will play a part in your ability to manage it. I'm big on having a bit too much litreage rather than going a bit too small.
If you're being rolled off your FG board with chop, then I'd be careful getting a narrow DW board. The extra width usually gives more stability. If you're being pitched off a wide board, going narrower would be something I'd hold off on.
Hope this helps. Keep on with the foil journey. It's great fun.
Not sure how helpful my answer will be since I learned the basics (jibing, tacking) in the fall of 2019 when all the gear was pretty crude. Boards and foils were big and hand wings were not that big and very baggy.
I think the board you have now is fine. Smaller or a downwind specific design isn't going to just magically have you start making your jibes. At 78 kg I started on a 5'8"/118 l Blue Planet Carver back then and graduated to a 5'1"/90 l board after 7 months. On a 4'11"/78 l board now.
Those Armstrong MA wings are awesome but they are more of an intermediate level wing (AR 7.5) that you need to grow into. Not surprised at all that you're crashing a lot due to roll control. Of the two I'd always suggest using the larger one to start with, but try and do whatever you can to get yourself in the flattest conditions you can find. FWIW I learned to jibe, tack both ways, backwinded 360's, etc, on a prehistoric Gong Pro XXL at 1900 sq cm by March of 2020. I briefly owned some GoFoil GL's at the very beginning but they were also higher aspect and more challenging. After 7 months on that big ole lower AR Gong, I graduated to smaller higher aspect foils with no issue at all. Maybe a used older Armstrong front wing might help as a temporary stepping stone to your current MA's. Just a thought
As for lighter winds I'd pick up a used 6.5-7m hand wing for your 80kg size. Probably get the most bang for the buck that way. An older, larger Armstrong foil will also be great in light wind until your skills improve
Always try and get yourself in the steadiest/flatest water conditions for progressing on basic jibes/tacks. Just as important as the gear you choose
Good luck!
martyj4 that's really helpful, thanks coach.
> I've found the slower foils have a tendancy to get affected by
> chop more than the glidey foils.
Yeah I think I have noticed this too. When going through bumps the smaller foil cuts through them more smoothly, where the larger foil definitely rises up more.
> If you're rolling too much, maybe check foot position? Are you putting
> too much weight on the inside of the board?
I think the issue is that I have been using the hand wing to help stabilize myself when doing turns and when going for a gybe I can't rely on it for balance anymore.
> Also, what is your toeside riding like?
I think the technical term is "total rubbish". I typically do an off-foil gybe, switch feet, and then get back up again. Should I learn to take off and ride toe-side to get a feel for it? Going back to square one is going to suck but I guess there is no way around it. Is that the best path -- learn to take off toeside and ride that way like I did for heelside? I was thinking to learn toe side once i can get around on foil, but maybe best to isolate the skills...
I guess this gets to how I'm spending my time on the water. Since I got up and can stay upwind I have mostly just been cruising back and forth enjoying the ride, but not investing too much in new skills beyond S-turns and carving.
> Hope this helps.
It does, many thanks.
Also Dspace, I appreciate the feedback, especially:
> Smaller or a downwind specific design isn't going to just
> magically have you start making your jibes.
Sigh. Yeah. I know from other sports I do that it's so tempting to fixate on the equipment when the problem isn't the gear -- it's me.
Select to expand quoteMediumSizedDan said..
I think the issue is that I have been using the hand wing to help stabilize myself when doing turns and when going for a gybe I can't rely on it for balance anymore.
I guess this gets to how I'm spending my time on the water. Since I got up and can stay upwind I have mostly just been cruising back and forth enjoying the ride, but not investing too much in new skills beyond S-turns and carving.
Hey Dan, we've all been there, its part of the fun learning journey :-) time on the water is going to be your friend. Focus on balance and riding the foil and it will become natural over time. For gybes you just gotten commit to falling for either a session or two or write off part of a session to try them. Give yourself 10 attempts, learn from those and then go back to cruising for a while. Loads of good tip videos on youtube that cover what ya need to do and practice makes perfect. It does take some time and commitment but the more disciplined you are and committed the quicker it will come. Gybes are the gateway level to continuous flying, loads more to come after that but all takes time, practice and refinement.
You gear is spot on, I wouldn't stress it.
Hey Dan,
I learned 4 years ago and it was a long slow process. As a 35+ year enthusiastic windsurfer, I had LOTS of ground in habits that I needed to break to foil successfully.
This is just me. I have taught others and they've smashed it way faster than me with different styles.
Conquering toeside riding was the key for me. Not saying it will be for everyone but many who I've taught have found similar. I tried getting up in toeside stance from taxi to foil but was way too much of an unco to do that - and still cant. For me I worked really hard in choppy conditions and struggled heaps by trying to swap feet while foiling to go from heelside stance to toeside. Breakthrough came when I had my first sesh on flat water.
My technique was narrow your stance so your feet are close together. Use a long fuse (I used one of the Windsurfing fuses - 90cm long). Use a big tail to give the whole setup pitch stability. Then get at moderate speed flying dead across with wind, slightly umbrella the wing to take the sideways pull out of the wing and make it a little more vertical, back foot to where the front foot is and front foot immediately to where the back was. These foot movements should be small and fast as your feet are narrow stance. This means that the board will be less inclined to pitch forwards and back as you swap feet and change the weight going through the board. Then be ready to feel unco-ordinated. You'll want to sheet in and maybe head off wind a bit to get power back in the wing. widen your stance again if you feel it's better.
The tip I got given to improve toeside is do it lots.
The gybe for me after getting toeside riding sorted out took me no time to get right. Everything felt natural going in toeside and exiting heelside. Still does.
But that's me and I'm weird. Maybe you are too 
.
Don't get dejected or put off if progress isn't as fast as you think it should be. Mate, it's a hard road for the majority of foilers and there's no easy tricks with this stuff.
Perfect gear, perfect conditions and perfect teaching and you might be up foiling after 4 sessions. Any of those things compromised and it could take 10x longer to master gybes and toeside. It's to be expected.
We're with ya.
martyj4 yes, I feel like I've had a weird, slow trajectory and I'm really glad to hear you say all that. I've been very slow to learn everything and it can at times be a bit demoralizing. It took me probably 20 sessions to just get on foil. I had a variety of issues from underinflated leading edge to not understanding how fast I need to go to being unstable when on foil (and this was with a big slow low aspect learner foil). Then I'm not kidding probably another 30 sessions until I could ride well heel side on my weak side and stay upwind. But hey I can cruise really well now, I got here eventually, so yeah I can do the next couple of things too.
I think you are right to suggest isolating the foot switch and toeside riding from the gybe. Every time I have tried to go toeside it has felt terribly awkward and ended with a splash. Do you see much value in doing touch-down foot switches or should i just go for it? The touch down almost makes it more complicated I think, I'll often lose a lot of speed that way so it's functionally pretty close to just starting toeside, which feels quite awkward at this point. I'll probably just go for it with the technique you described, I'm definitely comfortable inching my feet around already.
I don't have the luxury of flat water unless I travel, which now that I think about it could be a fun way to spend some vacation time. Meanwhile I'll try to pick the flattest spots, there are some areas with less chop and swell than others, but it's usually all kind of rough.
UisceBeatha:
> It does take some time and commitment but the more
> disciplined you are and committed the quicker it will come
Yes I think the discipline is key. I have just been sort of enjoying going back and forth for a while, and have not been pushing myself much. Thanks for the advice.
Select to expand quoteMediumSizedDan said..
I think you are right to suggest isolating the foot switch and toeside riding from the gybe. Every time I have tried to go toeside it has felt terribly awkward and ended with a splash. Do you see much value in doing touch-down foot switches or should i just go for it? The touch down almost makes it more complicated I think, I'll often lose a lot of speed that way so it's functionally pretty close to just starting toeside, which feels quite awkward at this point. I'll probably just go for it with the technique you described, I'm definitely comfortable inching my feet around already.
If you can get yourself to switch your feet to toeside while flying, that's the way to go (some people have a hard time even trying, myself included).
Once toeside, a common problem is finding power again. Make sure to extend your front arm forward. If you keep it over your head (a "natural" thing to do when switching hands in heel-side jibes), you'll be unbalanced, have no power, and sooner or later fall off to the back. Also check the position of your back hand - if it is too low, no power to keep speed. One tip I recently heard from someone who taught many wingers to jibe is to pull the back elbow up and back when toeside. That keeps more power in the wing, and aligns your body correctly. Here's a picture:
I had a chance to get out on the water and I tried some foot swaps. Moving my feet close together around the center of balance was surprisingly easy. I crashed hard when I tried to foot swap on foil tho, so after that I tried swapping feet while touching down, skipping on the surface of the water. While I mostly fell off or came off foil, I did successfully swap my feet a couple of times and stayed skimming for a few seconds afterwards. boardsurfr was spot on, once I swapped my feel I couldn't power up to stay on foil. I guess my job is now to extend that two seconds after the swap to 5 then 10 then 20 :)
If you're not used to twisting your upper body a lot (few are), then the front edge of the wing will often be too far to the wind, and the back edge too far downwind, for any power.
Two things that help with twisting are (1) bending your knees, and (2) rotating your feet so they point a bit forward, not just to the side. You can see both in the picture I posted. I think the feed could point even a bit more forward.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
If you're not used to twisting your upper body a lot (few are), then the front edge of the wing will often be too far to the wind, and the back edge too far downwind, for any power.
Two things that help with twisting are (1) bending your knees, and (2) rotating your feet so they point a bit forward, not just to the side. You can see both in the picture I posted. I think the feed could point even a bit more forward.
I'm definitely not used to it :) Thanks for the pointers. The only way I can even taxi toe-side is with the feet pointed more forward and my feet staggered a lot more than in that photo. When toeside my rear foot ends up offset significantly to the upwind side of the board, my forward foot centered slightly off the center line to the downwind side. A staggered stance like that feels more stable to me. Does that sound right? I feel like (and experienced!) that I'm at risk of scissoring over the downwind side of the board because of the pull of the wing otherwise.
I remember when I was learning my jibes with the 2000 NP front wing.. it felt good and safe but I was lacking turn exit speed. As soon as I bolted on the 1700 (haha.. compare to my 1095 HA today) which has a slimmer profile I instantly had more speed, which helped a ton.
1. The easiest foil for learning everything is the new-generation surf foil.When I started wing foiling in late 2020 on a big-fat low aspect foil the gears were rubbish for today's standard. Every brand sells that kind of foil as a beginner-friendly foil for learning. The only thing that big-fat foil is good at is getting you up easily and foil in straight lines in ideal conditions (decent wind and flatwater) They will be harder to control in chop and don't have glide for jibing and tacking in less than ideal condition.I recommend you try current generation surf foil (big one 1200-1500sqcm) with a beginner setup (stable tail and long fuse) It will take off easily due to its low stall speed and has better pitch control, lock-in roll even in chop and a good glide needed to complete manoeuvre which will help you learn faster. It can pump a lot better and easier too.
2-3. your board is fine. If you go smaller it will be less stable and you will fall more often. If you foil in choppy water and relatively light wind, a long and narrow downwind board with 25-30L more than your kg may be a good idea. A long-and-narrow board is easier to get up than a short-and-wide wingfoil board especially in the chop and light wind as it pierces through the water better.
Select to expand quoteMediumSizedDan said..
1. Would you suggest learning to gybe on the 1475 or 1225?
2. My question is jumping to a 95L-ish DW board for light days that's 19" or 20" wide -- is this going to be too narrow for me (my FG board is 28" wide)? Should I shoot for something more like 23-24"?
3. Is it possible that I have too much float and it's causing it to be corky and I might've been better at only +10 to my weight?
1. By experimenting I guess you'll decide that you prefer your smaller MA1225. Big fat foils just want to stop. They might be good for first flight at 5 kts water speed, but they typically slow down the learner's progression for every thing else. Big fat foils wear you out too. More fatigue equates to more crashing. Wide span foils are bad for learning too, since they are too roll stiff, so you cannot easily keep the foil under your body mass in turns. Roll stability is personal pref, but you're better off being too loose than stiff in roll response.
2. The longer narrower boards do save a lot of energy to get up on foil. Sideways stability depends a lot on the width of your foils and length of your mast. They also get 5x more stable if you learn to use the sail to make just 1 kt of forward speed through the water. If you go too wide in the board, then the DW style probably wont work too well.
3. Yeah, bigger aint always more stable for a board in the water. In swell+chop when going super slow thru the water, I've found that some full floater boards are much more difficult to balance on than partial sinkers. And when you're up on foil, then a bigger board with more swing weight and windage is more difficult for everything. They're good for nothing once up.
The problem with advice for learners is there are so many variables with circumstances, equipment and skills. I can offer three generalised tips which may or may not help ...
a. Front footstraps could make your feet swaps way easier. But the straps need to be mounted to face enough rearwards, not aiming too sideways, with a wide enough strap opening, and have slippery strap material (like neoprene). Also use two seperate straps further away from the centreline and don't start learning with a 3-screw V-strap - because a more offset feet stance is easier. Don't use a rear strap for learning.
b. Aim to roll into gybes and carve them. Avoid flat "yaw" turning the board+foils. But carving is only going to happen if you choose foils with a roll response that works for you. See my prev msg.
c. Flexible masts make turning much more difficult. When your board+foils is assembled on shore, next to others, do a simple mast flex and twist test to see how yours compares to a few others. If you're riding on a cheese-stick, then that's like pissing into the wind, when learning to carve S-turns or gybes without using the sail too much for balance.
PS: With front footstraps, you'll need to find the best mast position to maintain a comfortable feet stance.
PPS. If you get fatigue in your rear leg and notice that your front knee is quite straight and rear very bent, then try shimming the mast base to bring the board nose+deck up. Makes a huge difference to energy loss.
I recently had a session where the wind wasn't too gusty and the water was far less choppy than usual. What a difference those variables made. Thanks to the advice here, when trying to jybe I was able to get around on my strong side (turn roughly 130 degrees) about 50% of the time. On my weak side maybe 10% of the time. When I get around I face the problem described by boardsurfr:Select to expand quoteOnce toeside, a common problem is finding power again. Make sure to extend your front arm forward. If you keep it over your head (a "natural" thing to do when switching hands in heel-side jibes), you'll be unbalanced, have no power, and sooner or later fall off to the back.
Yes this is exactly what is happening to me: I get around, swap hands, and then run out of speed and drop off foil. At least at that point I'm pointed in the right direction? Next time I will try bringing the wing down sooner -- maybe once I cross the downwind line. And I have had others tell me it can be helpful to feather a little power through the turn. I'm currently totally depowering the wing overhead, consciously not using it for balance, and carving into it as suggested by Emmett above.
But wow -- gybing was so much less like a rodeo and more like carving a turn with the gusts and chop down to a minimum.
Select to expand quoteMediumSizedDan said..
I recently had a session where the wind wasn't too gusty and the water was far less choppy than usual. What a difference those variables made. Thanks to the advice here, when trying to jybe I was able to get around on my strong side (turn roughly 130 degrees) about 50% of the time. On my weak side maybe 10% of the time. When I get around I face the problem described by boardsurfr:Once toeside, a common problem is finding power again. Make sure to extend your front arm forward. If you keep it over your head (a "natural" thing to do when switching hands in heel-side jibes), you'll be unbalanced, have no power, and sooner or later fall off to the back.
Yes this is exactly what is happening to me: I get around, swap hands, and then run out of speed and drop off foil. At least at that point I'm pointed in the right direction? Next time I will try bringing the wing down sooner -- maybe once I cross the downwind line. And I have had others tell me it can be helpful to feather a little power through the turn. I'm currently totally depowering the wing overhead, consciously not using it for balance, and carving into it as suggested by Emmett above.
But wow -- gybing was so much less like a rodeo and more like carving a turn with the gusts and chop down to a minimum.
Hi, it's really hard to tell without seeing you, but here's my 2 cents, I hope it helps.
When getting into the toeside position I see 2 common mistakes:
1) leaning too much on the back foot. This will tilt the nose of the board up and stop you. Try bending your back knee a little when you want to go upwind, This will help you control the board.
2) when getting out of the gybe, I see beginners trying to get upwind without having gained enough speed. When gybing, especially at the beginning, you will lose speed. Before trying to get updwind, you need to re-gain some speed by riding slightly downwind/crosswind.
This will also help you finding the good toeside stance, as it's easier than going upwind.
