I have been learning wing, and I humbly suggest that the "wing pump" flap might be being taught incorrectly. I think this intuitively comes with time to advanced riders that there is a timing element, but not particularly helpful to beginners? Maybe it is taught this way to simplify things? I don't know but would be interested to hear some thoughts on this. Intention with this thread is to help progress things, and is based on observation.
Here is my analysis, take this with a pinch of salt. This is based on what I've seen, and then experienced riding a downwind board with an Axis 1300 and managing to start in ~10-12kn.
The wing pump is described as a circular "pullup" motion, but places no emphasis on moving the wing through the air. While actually the desired movement is much more subtle than just ripping the wing round in circles:
1. It's a circle movement, but viewed from above at 45deg angle, not the side
2. It's a well timed accelerating woosh forward and up, not a manic circle
3. It feels like you are pushing the wing forward in a scooping motion, with your back hand doing the work
4. The hands don't move in sync, one goes just before the other
Here are some examples from the wild (non instructional) and all seem to do something like what I've tried to describe:
www.instagram.com/p/CkqqtE-oLjf/
Clear at around 0:30 (instructional video but describes more the foil pump)
Did you have a look at Alan Cadiz's videos.?
Theres more than one way.
Intuitively Ive realised this way.
Its worth thinking about it as maintaining flow over the back of the sail as you set up for the next power stroke. Apparent wind changes throughout the cycle so you try to scallop the sail through the outbound movement and avoid pushing back against the wind. That keeps power in the sail throughout the cycle. Constant adjustment.
The main thing (that worked for me in learning) is to 'feel the pressure in the wing' and then pull yourself forward. The circular is to reinstate the wing (without contra action) for a next pull .
I learned that pumping slower but with more feel is more effective .. instead of manic pumping.
Also wait for a gust that will last. Don't waste energy otherwise.
And think about core strength, and transferring that forward pull into the feet into the board.
And finally to be abe to feel the pressure in the wing and maximize pull, the arms need to be straightened at one point in the motion.
A little clip to back up my 2 cents www.instagram.com/reel/Clb3eYOv9OD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.
Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.
Select to expand quotesaltwaterwine said..
Did you have a look at Alan Cadiz's videos.?
Theres more than one way.
Intuitively Ive realised this way.
Its worth thinking about it as maintaining flow over the back of the sail as you set up for the next power stroke. Apparent wind changes throughout the cycle so you try to scallop the sail through the outbound movement and avoid pushing back against the wind. That keeps power in the sail throughout the cycle. Constant adjustment.
I could only find this, which is more about scooching the board than anything else?
Select to expand quote
Thanks for explaining it, holding the back hand a bit longer makes sense. The video of yours is perfect in demonstrating this!
So why do the online tutorials not explain this? Seems like obviously something people do, and can describe. Flapping the wing like crazy clearly doesn't allow for smooth airflow. Is this a recent development due to better wings and foils? Do medium aspect foils not need this because you can just ollie up?
When I switched from a Takuma 1600 (old style foil) to the 1095 and 1440, I had to relearn how to take off because I could just ollie up before. You can explain away all day long how to pump the wing, but if you don't know how to pump your foil at the same time, then the game is lost. Not everyone is capable of unweighting a board while simultaneously shuffling the board forward and using the wing to propel at the same time too Hence, techniques will vary. That said, I find a large floaty board can be coaxed onto foil by using the circular type motion and foot shuffle. While slogging along waiting for a gust, you can practice your technique without causing a heart attack by keeping your arms mostly locked just like the vid from Taavi of Saadjarv who apparently inflates his wing with helium.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.
Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.
Thanks for explaining it, holding the back hand a bit longer makes sense. The video of yours is perfect in demonstrating this!
So why do the online tutorials not explain this? Seems like obviously something people do, and can describe. Flapping the wing like crazy clearly doesn't allow for smooth airflow. Is this a recent development due to better wings and foils? Do medium aspect foils not need this because you can just ollie up?
@cornwallis Thanks. With some foils that are big enough there is perhaps just no need to be as nuanced with the technique and any kind of flapping gets you going anyway?
BTW, with the smaller area HA foils and smaller wings I have a similar but slightly modified way of pumping. I hold the wing much more vertically to begin with, keeping both my hands elevated, and pulling towards my eye level (or even a bit higher) and not downwards. Pumping like that allows each pump to take me forward, eventually reaching the higher board speed that is needed for the smaller HA foils to start working.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.
Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.
Thanks for explaining it, holding the back hand a bit longer makes sense. The video of yours is perfect in demonstrating this!
So why do the online tutorials not explain this? Seems like obviously something people do, and can describe. Flapping the wing like crazy clearly doesn't allow for smooth airflow. Is this a recent development due to better wings and foils? Do medium aspect foils not need this because you can just ollie up?
@cornwallis Thanks. With some foils that are big enough there is perhaps just no need to be as nuanced with the technique and any kind of flapping gets you going anyway?
BTW, with the smaller area HA foils and smaller wings I have a similar but slightly modified way of pumping. I hold the wing much more vertically to begin with, keeping both my hands elevated, and pulling towards my eye level (or even a bit higher) and not downwards. Pumping like that allows each pump to take me forward, eventually reaching the higher board speed that is needed for the smaller HA foils to start working.
I guess probably the case.
Interesting, would be cool to see a clip as I can imagine this but miss maybe the details. Is the idea to generate more speed? Or just because you have less wing to touch the water.
It seems that what is obvious is that a HA foil requires more board speed, what is less obvious is that the technique for wing pumping also changes, requiring a refined wing movement when getting going in light wind.
At my local frontal winds only and super gusty, I've never had much luck with any technique under 15kn using a short board 5.4 x 26' x 104L, 6.5m sls in light wind at 100+kg and 6'3. My biggest foil is 1385cm.
I then bought a sup foil board 6'6 x 30 x 140L and the extra water line length + added volume made a night and day difference and can now foil in 12kns. The board generates speed so easily and can unweight and pump foil and to be honest it's fun and I can tack/gybe on it. I use to have a phobia about long boards but now use it for 50% of sessions, if it has good chimes and foil tracks forward, they feel 1 foot shorter and agile. If you are not going to sup foil you could go narrow 26' would be good, could double as a DW board too.
I agree with what @MProject04 said, especially waiting for the right gust, so many times I have almost pumped up and the wind dies, so then it doesn't matter what technique is used, no wind no foil.
Select to expand quotenorth_kiter said..
At my local frontal winds only and super gusty, I've never had much luck with any technique under 15kn using a short board 5.4 x 26' x 104L, 6.5m sls in light wind at 100+kg and 6'3. My biggest foil is 1385cm.
I then bought a sup foil board 6'6 x 30 x 140L and the extra water line length + added volume made a night and day difference and can now foil in 12kns. The board generates speed so easily and can unweight and pump foil and to be honest it's fun and I can tack/gybe on it. I use to have a phobia about long boards but now use it for 50% of sessions, if it has good chimes and foil tracks forward, they feel 1 foot shorter and agile. If you are not going to sup foil you could go narrow 26' would be good, could double as a DW board too.
I agree with what @MProject04 said, especially waiting for the right gust, so many times I have almost pumped up and the wind dies, so then it doesn't matter what technique is used, no wind no foil.
Nice one, I had a similar feeling on the board I tried, was also around 6'6 ~100L with DW design and it was very responsive, quick to accelerate, and feels much more nimble that I was expecting due to the foil box being closer to the middle.
Yes really good point on spotting the gusts, this from dinghy sailing but looking upwind and spotting a ripple is essential to getting the timing right.
Select to expand quotecornwallis said..@cornwallis Thanks. With some foils that are big enough there is perhaps just no need to be as nuanced with the technique and any kind of flapping gets you going anyway?
BTW, with the smaller area HA foils and smaller wings I have a similar but slightly modified way of pumping. I hold the wing much more vertically to begin with, keeping both my hands elevated, and pulling towards my eye level (or even a bit higher) and not downwards. Pumping like that allows each pump to take me forward, eventually reaching the higher board speed that is needed for the smaller HA foils to start working.
So why do the online tutorials not explain this? Seems like obviously something people do, and can describe. Flapping the wing like crazy clearly doesn't allow for smooth airflow. Is this a recent development due to better wings and foils? Do medium aspect foils not need this because you can just ollie up?
I guess probably the case.
Interesting, would be cool to see a clip as I can imagine this but miss maybe the details. Is the idea to generate more speed? Or just because you have less wing to touch the water.
It seems that what is obvious is that a HA foil requires more board speed, what is less obvious is that the technique for wing pumping also changes, requiring a refined wing movement when getting going in light wind.
@cornwallis, I did not find a good clip right away. But here is a pic where I am not yet foiling. When holding the wing more vertically (and not at some 45? degree angle) pretty much all of it's pull takes you forward instead of upwards.
So basically, already during the pumping stage you can mimic that super effective wing position that you also use while foiling. At the end of this short clip there is an example of how even a small wing easily reaches below the board deck. During the pumping, while the board is still in the water, you'd just have to elevate both of your hands and try to pump while holding the wing like that. Using a 840 cm2 front wing and a 3.5 m2 wing in this clip, not too windy day at all.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.
Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.
From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?
Select to expand quoteeppo said..Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.
Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.
From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?
@eppo, you are quite right. Very little at first, and a bit more later. I made a slow motion clip as well.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.
Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.
From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?
Well spotted, that is easy to explain to a beginner: keep your front arm straight(er) than your back arm
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..eppo said..Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.
Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.
From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?
@eppo, you are quite right. Very little at first, and a bit more later. I made a slow motion clip as well.
Nice thanks bud.
Taavi and Hwy1North are on the money. Unweighting yourself from the board on each pump is a key part of the take off, specially with foils that need to generate some speed before they become fully activate.
As for the wing, what Taavi describes is pretty accurate from my experience. In general, my first pumps are with the hand right back at the very end of the last handle and that sort of pushes the wing forward too. I have also experienced that in light conditions, keeping the front hand straighter helps with the airflow somehow (just what i feel). Once I start moving forward I normally have to move to smaller and faster pumps which seem to just help stabilising flight and acceleration.
Having said this, different wings will have a slight variation and will behave differently in light or stronger conditions and depending on the foil you are on. For example, I have found that in some designs and sizes the circular motion pumping becomes more effective above a particular wind threshold, and under that I have to do something else
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..eppo said..Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.
Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.
From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?
@eppo, you are quite right. Very little at first, and a bit more later. I made a slow motion clip as well.
Very interesting , thanks for posting the video. Looking at the tutorial videos from the original post, it is clear that pumping with both arms bending roughly the same amount also works - but I assume not as well. But the tutorial videos are aimed at beginners, who usually are on big foils, where the bigger payback comes from learning some coordination between pumping the wing and the foil.
When progressing to smaller foils, boards, and wings, pumping plays a much bigger role. Watching experienced foilers, I noticed that some get going with with a very athletic effort - fast whole body pumps that make me tired just watching them 
. But others seems to be able to get going on similar gear with what looks like much less effort, probably due to a more refined technique.
Looking at the slow motion clip, it seems that the forward movement of the wing starts while the back hand is still pulling in. That effectively increases the apparent wind over the wing, thereby increasing the lift. I have heard about that before, but could never really make sense of it before seeing your slow motion clip.
Some of the tutorial videos point out that you have to move the wing forward at the end, when you're done pumping. That's something I have noticed on the water, too, even though my pumping technique is not good. With the front arm barely bending, as in the clip, this forward move happens earlier, while still pumping, which makes sense to me.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..Taavi said..eppo said..
From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?
@eppo, you are quite right. Very little at first, and a bit more later. I made a slow motion clip as well.
Very interesting , thanks for posting the video. Looking at the tutorial videos from the original post, it is clear that pumping with both arms bending roughly the same amount also works - but I assume not as well. But the tutorial videos are aimed at beginners, who usually are on big foils, where the bigger payback comes from learning some coordination between pumping the wing and the foil.
When progressing to smaller foils, boards, and wings, pumping plays a much bigger role. Watching experienced foilers, I noticed that some get going with with a very athletic effort - fast whole body pumps that make me tired just watching them . But others seems to be able to get going on similar gear with what looks like much less effort, probably due to a more refined technique.
Looking at the slow motion clip, it seems that the forward movement of the wing starts while the back hand is still pulling in. That effectively increases the apparent wind over the wing, thereby increasing the lift. I have heard about that before, but could never really make sense of it before seeing your slow motion clip.
Some of the tutorial videos point out that you have to move the wing forward at the end, when you're done pumping. That's something I have noticed on the water, too, even though my pumping technique is not good. With the front arm barely bending, as in the clip, this forward move happens earlier, while still pumping, which makes sense to me.
Very good points @boardsurfr! Yes, the forward movement of the wing happens pretty much by itself, triggered by still pulling with your back hand while the front hand has already stopped pulling. In some conditions and with some wing sizes it's really useful to amplify the forward movement by deliberately throwing your hands forward and extending your arms as much as possible after each pump. But in some conditions you don't even need to think about that and it all happens very naturally.
One of the reasons why I keep my front hand almost straight in the very beginning of pumping has to do with the wing size. A 6.0 m2 wing is fairly big, and when one would start doing bigger amplitude pumps with the front arm as well right away the wing would easily touch the water. Also, in very light winds I find that the apparent wind really plays an important role - I am trying to spend a minimal amount of energy in the very beginning of pumping, feel it out, find out if there is enough traction in the wing, and I do try to build up even a little bit of board speed before really starting pumping. Once the board is already moving the wing magically fills with more and more power as the speed increases.
I guess for the very beginners there are just too many of such little details. Not easy to think of everything right away. Thankfully the feedback loop is so quick in winging that most people should figure it out pretty quickly. What helps a lot is the understanding that there is no one and only way that works.
Here's one of my favorite vids.
At 2.30 Kane discusses the use of the mast as a "keel." If you watch an advanced windsurfer pump onto plane, he's doing do by unweighting the board and leveraging the board in the water at the same time the sail powers up. Same with kitesurfing. Winging has a giant fin to lever off of, so the angle of the board as it sits in the water can also be used in conjuction with the timing of the wings movements. Notice in this vid, Kane is using a tiny everything. He gets on plane, but is breathing hard! As discussed in this thread, more volume (and to a certain extent waterline, but not too much!) combined with a larger foil and wing makes it easier, as does a more locked arms stance. But it's not to say one thing takes presidence over the other, as bent arms use less core muscle and more energy, but allow more explosive pop which might be the call when needed.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..
One of the reasons why I keep my front hand almost straight in the very beginning of pumping has to do with the wing size. A 6.0 m2 wing is fairly big, and when one would start doing bigger amplitude pumps with the front arm as well right away the wing would easily touch the water.
Now that would indeed be a very welcome benefit of the "straight front arm pump". I never has any issues pumping the F1 Strike CWC, but it's a very different story with the Unit 6.5. The F1 makes things easy, the Unit requires better technique (my wife, who is quite a bit shorter than I am but a much better winger, had no problems pumping the Unit 6.5). A few more weeks, and I'll be in warmer climates to try this out 
.
Made one clip with a smaller wing as well. Everything else is pretty much the same, the circular arms movement is still very much there, just that with a smaller wing it's possible to start the proper pumping right away and it's not that big a deal if the wing touches the water, and most importantly - you can hold the wing even more vertically which helps to get going faster. 62 litres and 3.6 m2, 880 cm2 front wing. Hope such footage is useful.
Taavi,
Thanks for that vid, while there has been plenty of great videos and advice here the angles of this video showing the cyclic motion plus the pushing forward of the board has hit the nail on the head for me.
Just got back from a great session with my Smik 4m and trying to emulate what you showed helped a lot
Thanks to everyone for your helpful input acros these pages and forums but this one struck that lightbulb moment for me
Cheers
Greg
