Hi, I'd like to avoid a passionate contest about what brand is better
... we just need an objective riding comparison between both boards.Please share your weight, weather conditions and what board sizes did you ride.
Any other comparable board (not pure DW please, just "hibrid Wing-DW" or "compact DW" ) will be very interesting
thanks so much !
Fran
I wish I could say I'd ridden the Amos but I haven't yet. Here's what I have ridden:
90 kg rider with a focus on surf/carve experience.
Board #1
Kalama e3 dw/prone/wing board. 83l 5'3"x22" 11.5lbs
I did probably close to 50 sessions on this board in wind from 5-55 knots and foils from 700-1780. Everything from big swell on DW runs to, long upwind rides, to flatwater games in light winds. Here's what I came up with:
Lightwind PR: 5-21 knots, average 12. fs1000 with 227 tail and 4.2m Cloud IX wing. Usually I needed my 1150 for lightwind days on this foil. While I was very happy with the low end, I did note that this board was a little sticky at times. The nose grabs the water when pumping up in light winds and it caused me to fall off at times. Still, great low end.
Highwind PR: 32-55 knots, average 37. fs850 foil with 157 tail and Strike v3 2m from F-One. Definitely a struggle to get onto foil with the 2m and the 850 in these winds with this board. Lots of time spent taxiing around between gusts. Nature of the beast for riding crazy stuff like this but I really wanted to use a smaller foil and it just wasn't compatible with the 2m and this board which is why I sought out something different.
Stability on water: Felt good to me side to side on a 76cm mast most days. Fore to aft stability was lacking a bit.
Stability in the air: Good, but not as good as my 8' barracuda. Foot switches felt very twitchy and questionable on my smaller foils.
Prone paddle: Not fast. Not terrible, but not fast.
Surf experience: For me, this board was more fun for casual riding, swell chasing, long glides, etc. I didn't like the way it felt when pushing hard turns, it always seemed a little dull IMO. I think this is the shorter length. Having a little bit of swing weight has proven to be preferred for me so that there is a feeling of throwing the board around, and not just trying to quickly dance back and forth on the foil. That actually allows me to surf harder since I feel more connected to the board and foil.
Board #2
Omen 60l.
With this board being -30l to kg it was forcing me to size up my wing in order to get up on foil. I wasn't willing to do so, so I couldn't evaluate it other than by saying that it does not start as efficiently as the other boards do.
Board #3
Cloud IX custom. 83l 6'3"x20" 9.5lbs
This was the fastest board I've ever ridden. Just a lightning bolt on the water. Unfortunately it was mostly destroyed in shipping by massive heat exposure so I didn't ride it more than a handful of times. It almost felt like it hated water since it got to foil so fast. As light as it was, in the air it felt like riding with a wisp of a cloud below me. I'm not sure if I would have loved the super light weight long term or not. I wish it wouldn't have been so badly damaged.
Board #4
Sunova Carver 5'10"x20" 10.75lbs (vapor construction and no footstrap inserts)
Only two sessions on it so far but here's what I've got:
Lightwind PR: 9-19 knots average 14. fs700 with catalyst tail and 4.2m Cloud IX Ho'Okipa wing. Right away this is exciting for me. Normally I would have needed my 1150 with a large stab to ride in these conditions. This board jumped me down 2 foil sizes and 4 stab sizes and I did that in my first 2 days of trying it. I have not yet felt the sticky feeling that I was struggling with on my wide nose kalama.
Highwind PR: TBD. Theoretically, this board will allow the use of the 2m in high winds with a smaller front foil which in turn will decrease the massive windload that hits my body when feeling the drag of the 850 or larger foils. Goal will be to ride the 700 or 550 in the most extreme winds with a hope of cracking the 60 knot mark.
Stability on the water: An obvious step down from the Kalama. 20" vs 22" isn't a horrible difference, but I undoubtedly can tell the shift in stability. Fore to aft stability is, however, increased.
Stability in the air: I think this is one of the biggest things I like about having a little more nose on my board. Once in the air it helps smooth out any/all twitchiness. Today on the fs700 with a 66cm mast (almost as fast/twitchy as I can get, and I've never ridden the 700 with my 66cm mast before) it was very under control. A misstep on a foot switch was easy to correct and touchdowns were inconsequential. The 10.75lbs lightweight pointed nose whipped around in gybes incredibly fast, better than my e3 fat nose at 11.5lbs. Worth noting is that my foot on the Carver has 3 more inches in front of it than it does on the e3.
Prone Paddle: TBD. Expected to be fast.
Surf experience: TBD. First impressions are good. The foil, to board, to wing, to rider ecosystem feels excellent on my first few rides. I would want to have 25 warm water sessions to fully evaluate but my first few rides tell me that the rail to rail swing experience is faster and more connected than on my Kalama.
Currently, the shiny new Carver is my favorite but as I mentioned, another 25 sessions in prime conditions would be ideal to fully evaluate.
Fantastic review !! thanks so much for all the detailsFYI, I'm designing my new wing board, a Carver-style / SultanWing-style , with shape3d.com and your feedback is super usefull
@bwalnut
be good if you could get some video of you getting on and getting going in 30knts mega chop with the carver 
I have the 5'7" Appletree Skipper DW (mini DW). I think its 21" wide and 85 liters (im 80kg). If I did it again, I'd get similar dims, but lower volume (maybe 65-70 liters). I think it would be easier to start in chaotic conditions.
Ive written several more detailed overviews of the board in the forum, but in short - I love it when conditions are clean or when the wind / wave directions align well, but its pretty challenging to start when the conditions are chaotic or cross grained. I think the lower volume would make those situations easier without sacrificing much in the cleaner conditions.
I am in a similar boat to Velociraptor and have also written up my experience with the Amos Sultan Wing 5'10" 85 L (my weight is 85 kg). I am adding my thoughts there since I believe the group of folks with experience in both would be tiny; if there is even one person, I would be surprised.
The significant difference that Amos implemented in the design compared to most other builders seems to be his approach to width. The 85 L board is 18". It is a needle. I know that others have gone for 20" in their approach. Amos tends to be at the forefront of innovation, and if you look at his team riders, it's not a surprise. The Sultan Wing was influenced by Adam Bennets. Hence, the width.
The only single drawback of the board is that it is a challenge once the water state is unruly. I have found that to be from about 25 knots. I had some long swims in the early weeks. Now that it is coming to three months with the board and countless hours under my belt, it doesn't bother me too much. I have used only this board since buying it. It's fantastic in the waves and, of course, flat water. It excels in DW wing conditions. It's easy to carry (I carry it with the board on my back with the mast in front of me). I ride strapless and would build it without straps next time (the weight of my board is only 5.3 kg, though).
The many advantages are well described and I will not delve on those. Like @BWalnut, I think the shape is here to stay.
Ideally, I would like to compare my board to a 95 L, 20" wide at 6'. I think that will give it some extra low end and make it slightly easier to get going in light wind. At the other end of the wind range, maybe I should also use my 40 L sinker a bit more when the wind gets to beyond 25 knots.
There is only upside in this approach to board design in my opinion.
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..
@bwalnut
be good if you could get some video of you getting on and getting going in 30knts mega chop with the carver
lol, nah I'm there to ride not make videos of water starts. My average session is 3-4 hours and I probably spend less than 5 minutes of that doing water starts, that comes out to be 2% of my time in the river at most. The huge list of pros outweigh any con related to balancing in chop for such a tiny sliver of time. I checked my logs and this past year I had 37 sessions where the wind average was 30 knots or higher and not once did I ever write down a note about struggling with water starts because of the chop.
If something changes I'm happy to share my notes on it but otherwise I'm just going to keep ripping.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..leepasty said..
@bwalnut
be good if you could get some video of you getting on and getting going in 30knts mega chop with the carver
lol, nah I'm there to ride not make videos of water starts. My average session is 3-4 hours and I probably spend less than 5 minutes of that doing water starts, that comes out to be 2% of my time in the river at most. The huge list of pros outweigh any con related to balancing in chop for such a tiny sliver of time. I checked my logs and this past year I had 37 sessions where the wind average was 30 knots or higher and not once did I ever write down a note about struggling with water starts because of the chop.
If something changes I'm happy to share my notes on it but otherwise I'm just going to keep ripping.
Haven't you just got the carver?
You only need to film for 1 minute, getting going and riding.
it's pretty easy and will be quicker than writing massive paragraphs
also much easier for people to see how the board performs
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..BWalnut said..leepasty said..
@bwalnut
be good if you could get some video of you getting on and getting going in 30knts mega chop with the carver
lol, nah I'm there to ride not make videos of water starts. My average session is 3-4 hours and I probably spend less than 5 minutes of that doing water starts, that comes out to be 2% of my time in the river at most. The huge list of pros outweigh any con related to balancing in chop for such a tiny sliver of time. I checked my logs and this past year I had 37 sessions where the wind average was 30 knots or higher and not once did I ever write down a note about struggling with water starts because of the chop.
If something changes I'm happy to share my notes on it but otherwise I'm just going to keep ripping.
Haven't you just got the carver?
You only need to film for 1 minute, getting going and riding.
it's pretty easy and will be quicker than writing massive paragraphs
also much easier for people to see how the board performs
I've been riding neutral buoyancy narrow boards for a while now. A video just shows my skill level in my home conditions. It doesn't show how everyone else will fare on it. That's why I made note that it was tippier side to side but more stable fore to aft than my last board. In the next few weeks I'll surely comment on how I feel about in in 35-45 knots.
I also don't have filming equipment that can show me doing a water start from 1km away. Water and air temps are 4-5 degrees right now so in water filming doesn't make sense either and again, I prefer to ride. I also like to write instead of make videos.
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..
I am in a similar boat to Velociraptor and have also written up my experience with the Amos Sultan Wing 5'10" 85 L (my weight is 85 kg). I am adding my thoughts there since I believe the group of folks with experience in both would be tiny; if there is even one person, I would be surprised.
The significant difference that Amos implemented in the design compared to most other builders seems to be his approach to width. The 85 L board is 18". It is a needle. I know that others have gone for 20" in their approach. Amos tends to be at the forefront of innovation, and if you look at his team riders, it's not a surprise. The Sultan Wing was influenced by Adam Bennets. Hence, the width.
The only single drawback of the board is that it is a challenge once the water state is unruly. I have found that to be from about 25 knots. I had some long swims in the early weeks. Now that it is coming to three months with the board and countless hours under my belt, it doesn't bother me too much. I have used only this board since buying it. It's fantastic in the waves and, of course, flat water. It excels in DW wing conditions. It's easy to carry (I carry it with the board on my back with the mast in front of me). I ride strapless and would build it without straps next time (the weight of my board is only 5.3 kg, though).
The many advantages are well described and I will not delve on those. Like @BWalnut, I think the shape is here to stay.
Ideally, I would like to compare my board to a 95 L, 20" wide at 6'. I think that will give it some extra low end and make it slightly easier to get going in light wind. At the other end of the wind range, maybe I should also use my 40 L sinker a bit more when the wind gets to beyond 25 knots.
There is only upside in this approach to board design in my opinion.
I'd love to try that board! How much do you think the tippiness is related to width vs thickness? If your sultan was an inch thinner, would that relationship change the balance feel? I have been thinking about this with the carver as the width to thickness ratio is 4-1. The sultan is 3-1 I think?
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..ArthurAlston said..
I am in a similar boat to Velociraptor and have also written up my experience with the Amos Sultan Wing 5'10" 85 L (my weight is 85 kg). I am adding my thoughts there since I believe the group of folks with experience in both would be tiny; if there is even one person, I would be surprised.
The significant difference that Amos implemented in the design compared to most other builders seems to be his approach to width. The 85 L board is 18". It is a needle. I know that others have gone for 20" in their approach. Amos tends to be at the forefront of innovation, and if you look at his team riders, it's not a surprise. The Sultan Wing was influenced by Adam Bennets. Hence, the width.
The only single drawback of the board is that it is a challenge once the water state is unruly. I have found that to be from about 25 knots. I had some long swims in the early weeks. Now that it is coming to three months with the board and countless hours under my belt, it doesn't bother me too much. I have used only this board since buying it. It's fantastic in the waves and, of course, flat water. It excels in DW wing conditions. It's easy to carry (I carry it with the board on my back with the mast in front of me). I ride strapless and would build it without straps next time (the weight of my board is only 5.3 kg, though).
The many advantages are well described and I will not delve on those. Like @BWalnut, I think the shape is here to stay.
Ideally, I would like to compare my board to a 95 L, 20" wide at 6'. I think that will give it some extra low end and make it slightly easier to get going in light wind. At the other end of the wind range, maybe I should also use my 40 L sinker a bit more when the wind gets to beyond 25 knots.
There is only upside in this approach to board design in my opinion.
I'd love to try that board! How much do you think the tippiness is related to width vs thickness? If your sultan was an inch thinner, would that relationship change the balance feel? I have been thinking about this with the carver as the width to thickness ratio is 4-1. The sultan is 3-1 I think?
I can't tell you how much the tippiness is related to width vs. thickness. I only experience tippiness as an issue when the sea state is unruly. I manage it by timing my popup to my knees - I use the rodeo variant of the stinkbug - to coincide when the board feels stable. I do notice that sometimes it feels like the whole board is sucked under when the swell is large and then it will lean to one side and is almost impossible to rectify while kneeling on the board. That is most annoying.
I wouldn't want to ride it at 17" - although I see that Amos pushes that already for some of his models. Correct, my Sultan's W:T ratio is very close to 3:1. I see another calculation coming up. What line of work are you in? You are one of the more analytical wingers I can think of.
See below - all the Sultan Wings have the same thickness. So none of these models will approach your board's ratio of 4:1.
I haven't ridden either board, but I do have the AFS Blackbird 6'2" x 21.1" @ 90l. ~87kg rider. I've ridden this board a handful of times now, and I have limited experience on the Duotone DW 7'2" @ 115l and a custom DW board of similar dimensions to the Duotone. I also ride the Sky Style TE/SLS 75l and PPC Soar Pro 75l (and two years ago my everyday board was the Sky Wing 60l)
What I do like about the AFS is that the deck width at the back foot position is wide, like a regular board. The other two DW boards I rode I felt like my toes were hanging over the rails on the back foot and I ride fairly inline stance. The longer waterline boards (and they also had more volume but about the same width) did glide better in low power situations... especially slogging, but the AFS gets foiling significantly earlier and with less effort than the "normal" boards I rode the same day and once up and flying felt very much like a normal board.
I think the mid-length board really has a place for people who just want a board for winging and aren't necessarily going to paddle it. The BB is about 2' of board length ahead of my front foot.
There's a video review of this board on YouTube where the guy is jumping and doing freestyle on it which I find a bit strange, but hey, whatever makes you happy I'm good with it. I ride without a harness or straps, but it's as nice option to have strap inserts if I change my mind or need to demo to a guy who uses straps.
I'm having fun on this board and it is my go-to in the offseason so I don't have to worry about being able to get foiling or make it back home. So far have only ridden with the Silk 850 and 1050 but will try as soon as I can with other foils.
I did try to measure the board thickness at the foil boxes and I estimate it to be ~4.5" which is quite thin. The board features a bulb nose and a pretty dug out deck.
would be interesting to try a smaller version of this board for our normal summer conditions (usually on 3.5)
Select to expand quotesunsetsailboards said..
I did try to measure the board thickness at the foil boxes and I estimate it to be ~4.5" which is quite thin. The board features a bulb nose and a pretty dug out deck.
I definitely like the look of those features and hope we see more boards experimenting with those design elements. Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..
I can't tell you how much the tippiness is related to width vs. thickness. I only experience tippiness as an issue when the sea state is unruly. I manage it by timing my popup to my knees - I use the rodeo variant of the stinkbug - to coincide when the board feels stable. I do notice that sometimes it feels like the whole board is sucked under when the swell is large and then it will lean to one side and is almost impossible to rectify while kneeling on the board. That is most annoying.
I wouldn't want to ride it at 17" - although I see that Amos pushes that already for some of his models. Correct, my Sultan's W:T ratio is very close to 3:1. I see another calculation coming up. What line of work are you in? You are one of the more analytical wingers I can think of.
See below - all the Sultan Wings have the same thickness. So none of these models will approach your board's ratio of 4:1.
I should probably work on my rodeo stinkbug efficiency and just make that my standard start. I use it so infrequently though, whenever I do pull it out it works great, but since I don't need it all the time I rarely use it. I think the river conditions of swell typically moving in the exact same direction of the wind, and in direct opposition to the current, results in more stable water conditions, even when it's extreme. Unfortunately the only data I have to compare that to is with DW supfoiling. Standing and paddling those boards in the river was always easy for me. I did a wave session though, and the mixed up water made standing on that board far harder to do. Different swell directions, different wind, rips, etc.
I'm going to start making note of that W:T ratio and see if anything comes from it over time...
I've moved through many lines of work over the years and it paints the picture well of how I ended up here I suppose. I was a professional climbing guide and taught every outdoor activity imaginable for many years. That, matched with my Masters in Experiential Education helped develop my strong desire to understand why things work, and how to share/teach them to clients who all had different learning styles. Teaching someone how to tie a knot that is musically inclined, vs mathematically inclined, is two different experiences. I graduated from that to being a Rope Access Supervisor, climbing structures and working with engineers to test and quantify bridge and dam fractures, as well as moonlighting on construction of stadiums and rigging live shows which all required a lot of math and precision. Now, I run my own custom carpentry company which blends art with craftsmanship and of course, requires a lot of analytical thinking. Foiling has so many mysteries to it and is expensive. I like identifying numbers that can tell us stories and help us pick the right toys. I hate seeing people who are "trapped" with a board that they spent their last penny on and it's not right for them but they can't afford to fix the mistake. 2023 helped me identify a lot of data points to track. 2024's sessions will produce some really interesting conclusions. The analytical side adds a deep layer of satisfaction to it for me and also helps relieve any FOMO that might try to creep into my brain over time.
98kgs, 6'3, I have a carver 6'2 x 20 x 95L (barg 4.7) and a SLS 7'8 x 22.5 x 135L (barg 5.5), I do not jump winging, only kite foiling, and I sup, kite, wing, and learning to DW. If the wind is frontal or sketchy, gusty and less than 12 ish knots, then I much prefer the SLS as it is longer which means more stable and I can stand easier waiting for the next gust, on the carver it sinks half way to my knees and is way more unstable. The SLS doesn't feel that much bigger than the carver on the water or in flight and I can still tack easy with it.
If the wind is > 12 kn the carver is the choice, but typically with a big wing 6m, if > 15 kn then I size down my hand wing to 5m, if wind > 17-18 kn then I size down my hand wing to 5m and foil. If wind was greater than 20 kn constantly I would want to have a smaller board say 50L prone board.
If it is really choppy, long narrow boards are challenging to stand on and can be very directional, everything is a compromise, but I would not own a board now wider than 22.5", maybe for beginners initially but once you can gybe or get your paddle balance, get on a narrower board would be my recommendation, you will progress much faster.
On a 20' board you can carve much harder and it is noticeable between the two boards.
My minimum barg factor now is >= 4.5 for a board.
I'd like to try an 8'0 x 20' x 130-135L, this could be the next board for me.
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..BWalnut said..ArthurAlston said..
I am in a similar boat to Velociraptor and have also written up my experience with the Amos Sultan Wing 5'10" 85 L (my weight is 85 kg). I am adding my thoughts there since I believe the group of folks with experience in both would be tiny; if there is even one person, I would be surprised.
The significant difference that Amos implemented in the design compared to most other builders seems to be his approach to width. The 85 L board is 18". It is a needle. I know that others have gone for 20" in their approach. Amos tends to be at the forefront of innovation, and if you look at his team riders, it's not a surprise. The Sultan Wing was influenced by Adam Bennets. Hence, the width.
The only single drawback of the board is that it is a challenge once the water state is unruly. I have found that to be from about 25 knots. I had some long swims in the early weeks. Now that it is coming to three months with the board and countless hours under my belt, it doesn't bother me too much. I have used only this board since buying it. It's fantastic in the waves and, of course, flat water. It excels in DW wing conditions. It's easy to carry (I carry it with the board on my back with the mast in front of me). I ride strapless and would build it without straps next time (the weight of my board is only 5.3 kg, though).
The many advantages are well described and I will not delve on those. Like @BWalnut, I think the shape is here to stay.
Ideally, I would like to compare my board to a 95 L, 20" wide at 6'. I think that will give it some extra low end and make it slightly easier to get going in light wind. At the other end of the wind range, maybe I should also use my 40 L sinker a bit more when the wind gets to beyond 25 knots.
There is only upside in this approach to board design in my opinion.
I'd love to try that board! How much do you think the tippiness is related to width vs thickness? If your sultan was an inch thinner, would that relationship change the balance feel? I have been thinking about this with the carver as the width to thickness ratio is 4-1. The sultan is 3-1 I think?
I can't tell you how much the tippiness is related to width vs. thickness. I only experience tippiness as an issue when the sea state is unruly. I manage it by timing my popup to my knees - I use the rodeo variant of the stinkbug - to coincide when the board feels stable. I do notice that sometimes it feels like the whole board is sucked under when the swell is large and then it will lean to one side and is almost impossible to rectify while kneeling on the board. That is most annoying.
I wouldn't want to ride it at 17" - although I see that Amos pushes that already for some of his models. Correct, my Sultan's W:T ratio is very close to 3:1. I see another calculation coming up. What line of work are you in? You are one of the more analytical wingers I can think of.
See below - all the Sultan Wings have the same thickness. So none of these models will approach your board's ratio of 4:1.
Hi Arthur, I think if you lower the volume to -20 to -30 all the tippiness will go away. I wouldn't go under 19", and I think footstraps will give you greater control.if you are fighting the board you have too much volume. In light wind this is not an issue and volume is your friend
Select to expand quotenoepoxy said..
98kgs, 6'3, I have a carver 6'2 x 20 x 95L (barg 4.7) and a SLS 7'8 x 22.5 x 135L (barg 5.5), I do not jump winging, only kite foiling, and I sup, kite, wing, and learning to DW. If the wind is frontal or sketchy, gusty and less than 12 ish knots, then I much prefer the SLS as it is longer which means more stable and I can stand easier waiting for the next gust, on the carver it sinks half way to my knees and is way more unstable. The SLS doesn't feel that much bigger than the carver on the water or in flight and I can still tack easy with it.
If the wind is > 12 kn the carver is the choice, but typically with a big wing 6m, if > 15 kn then I size down my hand wing to 5m, if wind > 17-18 kn then I size down my hand wing to 5m and foil. If wind was greater than 20 kn constantly I would want to have a smaller board say 50L prone board.
If it is really choppy, long narrow boards are challenging to stand on and can be very directional, everything is a compromise, but I would not own a board now wider than 22.5", maybe for beginners initially but once you can gybe or get your paddle balance, get on a narrower board would be my recommendation, you will progress much faster.
On a 20' board you can carve much harder and it is noticeable between the two boards.
My minimum barg factor now is >= 4.5 for a board.
I'd like to try an 8'0 x 20' x 130-135L, this could be the next board for me.
I love that the using the barg factor is working for you.
Have you tried the SLS in the waves? I'm still hunting for the right width on a supfoil for surfing. I picked up a really beat up old Kalama e3 6'5"x23.5" 116l barg factor 4.57 that I'm going to give a crack in the waves in the next week or two. Hoping it has enough width to allow me to stand in a traditional sup paddle stance while waiting for waves. If it doesn't work out for me, I think it would be a cool board to offer up for beginners to use and learn to wing on.
I tried a few, started with 28, then went to 24" that was ok but really hard work. Settled with 26", super comfortable could probably do 25" but very happy with this one and can go out in onshore conditions and stay for hours. All boards around 120l different lengths.
weight is a massive factor in all foil boards, went custom super light.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..noepoxy said..
98kgs, 6'3, I have a carver 6'2 x 20 x 95L (barg 4.7) and a SLS 7'8 x 22.5 x 135L (barg 5.5), I do not jump winging, only kite foiling, and I sup, kite, wing, and learning to DW. If the wind is frontal or sketchy, gusty and less than 12 ish knots, then I much prefer the SLS as it is longer which means more stable and I can stand easier waiting for the next gust, on the carver it sinks half way to my knees and is way more unstable. The SLS doesn't feel that much bigger than the carver on the water or in flight and I can still tack easy with it.
If the wind is > 12 kn the carver is the choice, but typically with a big wing 6m, if > 15 kn then I size down my hand wing to 5m, if wind > 17-18 kn then I size down my hand wing to 5m and foil. If wind was greater than 20 kn constantly I would want to have a smaller board say 50L prone board.
If it is really choppy, long narrow boards are challenging to stand on and can be very directional, everything is a compromise, but I would not own a board now wider than 22.5", maybe for beginners initially but once you can gybe or get your paddle balance, get on a narrower board would be my recommendation, you will progress much faster.
On a 20' board you can carve much harder and it is noticeable between the two boards.
My minimum barg factor now is >= 4.5 for a board.
I'd like to try an 8'0 x 20' x 130-135L, this could be the next board for me.
I love that the using the barg factor is working for you.
Have you tried the SLS in the waves? I'm still hunting for the right width on a supfoil for surfing. I picked up a really beat up old Kalama e3 6'5"x23.5" 116l barg factor 4.57 that I'm going to give a crack in the waves in the next week or two. Hoping it has enough width to allow me to stand in a traditional sup paddle stance while waiting for waves. If it doesn't work out for me, I think it would be a cool board to offer up for beginners to use and learn to wing on.
yes I have tried the SLS in waves, it's stable but if a lot of water movement or over a shallow sandbar, one has to be quick to feet and catch the wave, you won't stand there waiting for minutes waiting for a wave like on a fat board, a different technique is required. It really depends on how good you are at balance and your wave hunting skills.
This video is a good example
I still find it strange that I've still not seen any video of people riding these boards in choppy sea state over 25knts when there's so much talk about how good they are.
Ive been asking for over 6 months but still nothing, it's not hard to film either someone from land or GoPro on the wing. only video I've seen is light wind smooth water and yes then they are good but no video of normal wave conditions over 25knts with cross chop
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..
I still find it strange that I've still not seen any video of people riding these boards in choppy sea state over 25knts when there's so much talk about how good they are.
Ive been asking for over 6 months but still nothing, it's not hard to film either someone from land or GoPro on the wing. only video I've seen is light wind smooth water and yes then they are good but no video of normal wave conditions over 25knts with cross chop
I'm abt 80kg and ride the Armstron 85L 6'3 x 18,75" and it's magic. I have ridden it in to avg 30 and gusting 40knots with very choppy waterstate, no problem. Waterstart is of course a bit trickier but when getting on knees I'm using the front handle of the wing to stabilize things - works well. Of course beach break has more leverage on the board, but Ican take that in our conditions. Sorry I have no footage - having a MF knee problem; meniscus and MCL tear. Hopefully no arthritis.
My Amos Sultan prone/wing 5'5 x 19 x 65l arrives soon. I'm 80kg naked, used to have a 22" wide Rocket wing S.
I'm keen to get on it, might need the rodeo start, but hoping my "sniper" semi waterstart I use, that I posted on before, will still do the trick. I'm in x onshore chop and windswell
Mike.
In the last 2 months I ride only 7'2" x 18" DW board in variety of conditions.In messy chops narrow board is harder to balance to knee start but you will get use to it after a few sessions. I use rodeo stinkbug in extreme chop but most of the time I just did normal knee start. You will learn how to get up on your feet on this torpedo board. Similar to when you downsize from the beginner board. It is normal to get very frustrated on the first couple of sessions.I think roll axis instability of the narrower board is easier to manage than the fore-aft instability of the shorter board.Now I'm waiting for my custom Carver to arrive.
Select to expand quoteMikedubs said..
My Amos Sultan prone/wing 5'5 x 19 x 65l arrives soon. I'm 80kg naked, used to have a 22" wide Rocket wing S.
I'm keen to get on it, might need the rodeo start, but hoping my "sniper" semi waterstart I use, that I posted on before, will still do the trick. I'm in x onshore chop and windswell
Mike.
Yeah Mike get some video when it's nice wavey cross chop 3.5 weather
Select to expand quoteMikedubs said..
My Amos Sultan prone/wing 5'5 x 19 x 65l arrives soon. I'm 80kg naked, used to have a 22" wide Rocket wing S.
I'm keen to get on it, might need the rodeo start, but hoping my "sniper" semi waterstart I use, that I posted on before, will still do the trick. I'm in x onshore chop and windswell
Mike.
I'd be keen to hear about your experience. I recall seeing your sniper techinique in the past and sure it will come in very handy.Select to expand quoteleepasty said..
I still find it strange that I've still not seen any video of people riding these boards in choppy sea state over 25knts when there's so much talk about how good they are.
Ive been asking for over 6 months but still nothing, it's not hard to film either someone from land or GoPro on the wing. only video I've seen is light wind smooth water and yes then they are good but no video of normal wave conditions over 25knts with cross chop
It's obviously a plot. We are all AI personas.Select to expand quotebolocom said..
Hi Arthur, I think if you lower the volume to -20 to -30 all the tippiness will go away. I wouldn't go under 19", and I think footstraps will give you greater control.if you are fighting the board you have too much volume. In light wind this is not an issue and volume is your friend
HI Diego, do you think that design (i.e. let's say 20' wide and 5' and, for me, 60 L or so) still provides any of the low-end benefit of the boards we describe in this thread? I would love to try that board, but I see it as more of a regular board (i.e. 18 knots or more).
Yesterday, for a good hour, I was the only one having fun at Gerroa. Really marginal wind, I would say 10-12 knots in the gusts with large holes so I had to pump to find the gusts and then jibe in them. I was on a 5.3m2 XPS and the 880 HA foil. Even Jamie was astonished that I was out in those marginal conditions. And then I simply stayed on the same board as the wind picked up, and I switched to a 4m2 wing. This would not be possible on a board -20 L my weight, regardless of design (or at least that's what I think! I could be completely wrong).
I'm toying with the idea of asking Jason to build me another board. Let's chat when you're here again.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
I've moved through many lines of work over the years and it paints the picture well of how I ended up here I suppose. I was a professional climbing guide and taught every outdoor activity imaginable for many years. That, matched with my Masters in Experiential Education helped develop my strong desire to understand why things work, and how to share/teach them to clients who all had different learning styles. Teaching someone how to tie a knot that is musically inclined, vs mathematically inclined, is two different experiences. I graduated from that to being a Rope Access Supervisor, climbing structures and working with engineers to test and quantify bridge and dam fractures, as well as moonlighting on construction of stadiums and rigging live shows which all required a lot of math and precision. Now, I run my own custom carpentry company which blends art with craftsmanship and of course, requires a lot of analytical thinking. Foiling has so many mysteries to it and is expensive. I like identifying numbers that can tell us stories and help us pick the right toys. I hate seeing people who are "trapped" with a board that they spent their last penny on and it's not right for them but they can't afford to fix the mistake. 2023 helped me identify a lot of data points to track. 2024's sessions will produce some really interesting conclusions. The analytical side adds a deep layer of satisfaction to it for me and also helps relieve any FOMO that might try to creep into my brain over time.
Wow cool. Your approach to foiling makes a lot of sense now. It's great to know more about people and their backgrounds.
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..Mikedubs said..
My Amos Sultan prone/wing 5'5 x 19 x 65l arrives soon. I'm 80kg naked, used to have a 22" wide Rocket wing S.
I'm keen to get on it, might need the rodeo start, but hoping my "sniper" semi waterstart I use, that I posted on before, will still do the trick. I'm in x onshore chop and windswell
Mike.
I'd be keen to hear about your experience. I recall seeing your sniper techinique in the past and sure it will come in very handy.leepasty said..
I still find it strange that I've still not seen any video of people riding these boards in choppy sea state over 25knts when there's so much talk about how good they are.
Ive been asking for over 6 months but still nothing, it's not hard to film either someone from land or GoPro on the wing. only video I've seen is light wind smooth water and yes then they are good but no video of normal wave conditions over 25knts with cross chop
It's obviously a plot. We are all AI personas.bolocom said..
Hi Arthur, I think if you lower the volume to -20 to -30 all the tippiness will go away. I wouldn't go under 19", and I think footstraps will give you greater control.if you are fighting the board you have too much volume. In light wind this is not an issue and volume is your friend
HI Diego, do you think that design (i.e. let's say 20' wide and 5' and, for me, 60 L or so) still provides any of the low-end benefit of the boards we describe in this thread? I would love to try that board, but I see it as more of a regular board (i.e. 18 knots or more).
Yesterday, for a good hour, I was the only one having fun at Gerroa. Really marginal wind, I would say 10-12 knots in the gusts with large holes so I had to pump to find the gusts and then jibe in them. I was on a 5.3m2 XPS and the 880 HA foil. Even Jamie was astonished that I was out in those marginal conditions. And then I simply stayed on the same board as the wind picked up, and I switched to a 4m2 wing. This would not be possible on a board -20 L my weight, regardless of design (or at least that's what I think! I could be completely wrong).
I'm toying with the idea of asking Jason to build me another board. Let's chat when you're here again.
Hi mate, it obviously doesn't have the low end of a narrow mid length. But I am happily surprised on how easy it pops up. I made it for my son, but after testing it I kept it and order another one but 50L.
I find everything easier on this board, and a lot more fun to ride. I thought it was going to be a high wind board, but it's my go to and I am on it 90% of the time. Unlike most of you here I don't like length and compact boards feel amazing, you are only riding the foil, the board has little input if it is well balanced.
and here is where Pyke is amazing, my board it's not only short but with the boxes and footstraps very forward. This makes it feel even shorter, and when you are on your knees I am on the flat deck not on top of the footstraps. It's also 3.5kg. Next time I see you, give it a go.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
I wish I could say I'd ridden the Amos but I haven't yet. Here's what I have ridden:
90 kg rider with a focus on surf/carve experience.
Board #1
Kalama e3 dw/prone/wing board. 83l 5'3"x22" 11.5lbs
I did probably close to 50 sessions on this board in wind from 5-55 knots and foils from 700-1780. Everything from big swell on DW runs to, long upwind rides, to flatwater games in light winds. Here's what I came up with:
Lightwind PR: 5-21 knots, average 12. fs1000 with 227 tail and 4.2m Cloud IX wing. Usually I needed my 1150 for lightwind days on this foil. While I was very happy with the low end, I did note that this board was a little sticky at times. The nose grabs the water when pumping up in light winds and it caused me to fall off at times. Still, great low end.
Highwind PR: 32-55 knots, average 37. fs850 foil with 157 tail and Strike v3 2m from F-One. Definitely a struggle to get onto foil with the 2m and the 850 in these winds with this board. Lots of time spent taxiing around between gusts. Nature of the beast for riding crazy stuff like this but I really wanted to use a smaller foil and it just wasn't compatible with the 2m and this board which is why I sought out something different.
Stability on water: Felt good to me side to side on a 76cm mast most days. Fore to aft stability was lacking a bit.
Stability in the air: Good, but not as good as my 8' barracuda. Foot switches felt very twitchy and questionable on my smaller foils.
Prone paddle: Not fast. Not terrible, but not fast.
Surf experience: For me, this board was more fun for casual riding, swell chasing, long glides, etc. I didn't like the way it felt when pushing hard turns, it always seemed a little dull IMO. I think this is the shorter length. Having a little bit of swing weight has proven to be preferred for me so that there is a feeling of throwing the board around, and not just trying to quickly dance back and forth on the foil. That actually allows me to surf harder since I feel more connected to the board and foil.
Board #2
Omen 60l.
With this board being -30l to kg it was forcing me to size up my wing in order to get up on foil. I wasn't willing to do so, so I couldn't evaluate it other than by saying that it does not start as efficiently as the other boards do.
Board #3
Cloud IX custom. 83l 6'3"x20" 9.5lbs
This was the fastest board I've ever ridden. Just a lightning bolt on the water. Unfortunately it was mostly destroyed in shipping by massive heat exposure so I didn't ride it more than a handful of times. It almost felt like it hated water since it got to foil so fast. As light as it was, in the air it felt like riding with a wisp of a cloud below me. I'm not sure if I would have loved the super light weight long term or not. I wish it wouldn't have been so badly damaged.
Board #4
Sunova Carver 5'10"x20" 10.75lbs (vapor construction and no footstrap inserts)
Only two sessions on it so far but here's what I've got:
Lightwind PR: 9-19 knots average 14. fs700 with catalyst tail and 4.2m Cloud IX Ho'Okipa wing. Right away this is exciting for me. Normally I would have needed my 1150 with a large stab to ride in these conditions. This board jumped me down 2 foil sizes and 4 stab sizes and I did that in my first 2 days of trying it. I have not yet felt the sticky feeling that I was struggling with on my wide nose kalama.
Highwind PR: TBD. Theoretically, this board will allow the use of the 2m in high winds with a smaller front foil which in turn will decrease the massive windload that hits my body when feeling the drag of the 850 or larger foils. Goal will be to ride the 700 or 550 in the most extreme winds with a hope of cracking the 60 knot mark.
Stability on the water: An obvious step down from the Kalama. 20" vs 22" isn't a horrible difference, but I undoubtedly can tell the shift in stability. Fore to aft stability is, however, increased.
Stability in the air: I think this is one of the biggest things I like about having a little more nose on my board. Once in the air it helps smooth out any/all twitchiness. Today on the fs700 with a 66cm mast (almost as fast/twitchy as I can get, and I've never ridden the 700 with my 66cm mast before) it was very under control. A misstep on a foot switch was easy to correct and touchdowns were inconsequential. The 10.75lbs lightweight pointed nose whipped around in gybes incredibly fast, better than my e3 fat nose at 11.5lbs. Worth noting is that my foot on the Carver has 3 more inches in front of it than it does on the e3.
Prone Paddle: TBD. Expected to be fast.
Surf experience: TBD. First impressions are good. The foil, to board, to wing, to rider ecosystem feels excellent on my first few rides. I would want to have 25 warm water sessions to fully evaluate but my first few rides tell me that the rail to rail swing experience is faster and more connected than on my Kalama.
Currently, the shiny new Carver is my favorite but as I mentioned, another 25 sessions in prime conditions would be ideal to fully evaluate.
U are saying here that as an 90kg rider in 9 to 19 knots with the carver u just needed an 4.2m wing and an 700 foil? Wtf
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..Mikedubs said..
My Amos Sultan prone/wing 5'5 x 19 x 65l arrives soon. I'm 80kg naked, used to have a 22" wide Rocket wing S.
I'm keen to get on it, might need the rodeo start, but hoping my "sniper" semi waterstart I use, that I posted on before, will still do the trick. I'm in x onshore chop and windswell
Mike.
Yeah Mike get some video when it's nice wavey cross chop 3.5 weather
I won't be videoing, I'm from the generation that doesn't feel the need to film and record everything.
I ride Camber sands, and around the Kent coast, so plenty of awkward stuff to ride in, if it works OK, I'll say and you can take my word for it.
Still waiting for it,
Mike
Select to expand quoteDriks said..
U are saying here that as an 90kg rider in 9 to 19 knots with the carver u just needed an 4.2m wing and an 700 foil? Wtf
That's why I keep asking for video. No way you getting going at my local with waves on a 4.2m 700 foil in cross on 9 knots 
The Gorge is an alien planet. Massive current adding power to your wing at all times. What I can do in the Gorge is worlds away from my typical tropical Florida conditions.
Don't sweat it, just treat Gorge wingers as aliens. haha..
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..Driks said..
U are saying here that as an 90kg rider in 9 to 19 knots with the carver u just needed an 4.2m wing and an 700 foil? Wtf
That's why I keep asking for video. No way you getting going at my local with waves on a 4.2m 700 foil in cross on 9 knots
Yep. That's what happened! Gauges read 3-19 while I was rigging too. There was some nasty glass zones out there to watch out for haha.
I have been extremely dedicated to small foil and small wing takeoffs for 130+ sessions in the last year. So, yes, consider that to be abnormal alien level. I even left the water that day wondering if I could have made my 3.5 work....
I'm with Mikedubs on the video thing. But anyone is welcome to join me in the Gorge for a session.
