Hi All,
I'm considering phasing out windfoiling from my repetoire as I prefer to wingfoil these days, even if it means slogging a bit when the wind is pretty light like 10-12 knots. I live in a spot with relatively flatwater and no surf, it's pretty much sideshore choppy lake conditions. My problem is that my wingboard that equals my weight (90L/90kg), does not get on foil nearly as windfoiling gear though I can't say I'm surprised given windfoiling's efficiency in light wind. With this said I was wondering if going to a slightly bigger board is worthwhile? For example, if I'm 90kg and add a 110L-115L board to my quiver will it be worth it for getting going in a couple less knots of wind? In this case I'm talking about boards with standard wingfoil board shapes, not narrow downwind boards (as cool as they are), as I would possibly use the bigger board for letting my windsurf and kiter friends give wingfoiling a shot too. I normally use a 6.5 wing in lightwind. I'd appreciate hearing thoughts from intermediate and advanced wingers who ride in light conditions as to what volume works best for them in lightwind given their weight, especially if they've tried multiple board volumes in their quest for early flying.
Thanks in advance!
Don't think you'll see much improvement until you get into a narrow DW board.
Instead I'd look at your foil.
My home lake has left its low end already reaching 10-12 kts. If you have maximised your foil with +-2.400cm already and like an active style with pumping initiation, then added volume wouldn't lower your foiling threshold significantly. If you prefer kind of passive starts it does of course as it brings your gliding base closer to the surface. DW boards work differently though as they benefit from a quicker displacement ride at logistic costs
It's not all about volume , length and shape play a big part in getting going early.
for me I find , flat tail , sharp rails and length is what gets going earlier.
I've just made a board at 5'6"x25" not sure on volume, Im 85kgs.
I was aiming to shape a board to get on foil quick as use Axis HPS foils. I've used it once and am really impressed with how it gets going in lighter winds.
I shaped it in the Dave Kalama E3 style. Next light wind board will be 6'5" x23" as I really think the narrow boards do move through the water easier and are what works best for lighter winds.
There are some great comments here, thanks guys.
Grant & Foxi, I agree, a thin downwind board would get me going sooner, if I didn't want to let others try the board for learning I'd go in this direction for sure. I do lean a bit towards passive starts, I am not the best pumper that's for sure, though I try. I've maxed out as big as I want to go with a 2000cm medium-aspect foil
UKwinger, I agree it's not indeed all about volume, shape is huge. I guess my question is that if all other shape factors are equal will a board with say volume that's 20% bigger than my 90L/90Kg get me going any faster?
rgmacca - Yes narrow boards are a huge consideration. One thing I didn't mention which I know, I know is totally relevant, is that I'm limited to only using inflatable boards for the time being due to a couple factors. Of course, I know they are stickier than hard boards and lack the rail, rocker and tail shape that help so much in light winds. I left out this detail when I posted as the discussion of two identical inflatables boards of different sizes compared head to head with one another should not be much different than two identical sharp-railed 2023 hard board compared head to head, other than that the inflatables would start flying a bit later than the hard boards.
thanks guys!
My E3 DW board is 6'1" x 23" @105 litres
with a GT2200 foil and CWC Strike 8M I have been the only guy on the water the past few sessions whilst others have waited on the the shore for enough wind for their setups.
i can get up and stay up in sub 8 knots very easily
I'm 6' and 80kg so I can stand upright and wait for wind, even in large chop and waves.
At 6'1" the board looks large but in reality feels quite nimble as you stand forward and there is not that much board in front of your feet. I find light wind winging a heap of fun as I can go slow and focus on keeping the board flying learning board/foil skills instead of relying on sheer wind power to keep flying. Yesterday I was riding in a Harbour with a large opening to the ocean so swells and waves were coming through even though the wind was light, so I had heaps of fun using the wind to get me onto the swells and floating along with barely any wind input. Since getting the E3 DW board 6 weeks ago I haven't ridden my wing boards (70 litre and 58 litre) as this board is just so easy and fun.
Edit: the black lines behind the mast are cable guides for my FoilDrive, but I'm hardly using it for winging as I can get up in such light winds with the big wing and big foil. I did use my FoilDrive with this same setup the other week in 5knots and had a very relaxing session with no frustration, very minimal pumping and glorious smooth water
Select to expand quotergmacca said..
I've just made a board at 5'6"x25" not sure on volume, Im 85kgs.
I was aiming to shape a board to get on foil quick as use Axis HPS foils. I've used it once and am really impressed with how it gets going in lighter winds.
I shaped it in the Dave Kalama E3 style. Next light wind board will be 6'5" x23" as I really think the narrow boards do move through the water easier and are what works best for lighter winds.
I've done 6'2 x 23.5 and 5'5 x 23.5. The 5'5 is better in every way.
Going to 6'5 is just more board weight. No gain in light wind based on my testing. 5'5 x 23.5 is already a gunny early take-off board and lively.
Ive got a 5'7" x 22", 80L in fabrication with this purpose in mind. Will report back once I've tested it, but I'm hoping to retire the 7m with this rig...
Select to expand quotecamerongraham said..
My E3 DW board is 6'1" x 23" @105 litres
with a GT2200 foil and CWC Strike 8M I have been the only guy on the water the past few sessions whilst others have waited on the the shore for enough wind for their setups.
i can get up and stay up in sub 8 knots very easily
I'm 6' and 80kg so I can stand upright and wait for wind, even in large chop and waves.
At 6'1" the board looks large but in reality feels quite nimble as you stand forward and there is not that much board in front of your feet. I find light wind winging a heap of fun as I can go slow and focus on keeping the board flying based on my board/foil skills instead of relying on sheer wind power to keep flying. Yesterday I was riding in a Harbour with a large opening to the ocean so swells and waves were coming through even though the wind was light, so I had heaps of fun using the wind to get me onto the swells and floating along with barely any wind input. Since getting the E3 DW board 6 weeks ago I haven't ridden my wing boards (70 litre and 58 litre) as this board is just so easy and fun.
Edit: the black lines behind the mast are cable guides for my FoilDrive, but I'm hardly using it for winging as I can get up in such light winds with the big wing and big foil. I did use my FoilDrive the other week in 5knots and had a very relaxing session with no frustration, no pumping and glorious smooth water
This is so awesome, I've yet to see anyone running an 8m CWC at my local spot let alone with a downwind board and wing that size. This is definitely the ideal. I need to see someone on a rig like this in the same wind my windfoil friends are going on their massive gear, it sounds like you low end is equally good! Thanks for posting!
Select to expand quoteDWF said..rgmacca said..
I've just made a board at 5'6"x25" not sure on volume, Im 85kgs.
I was aiming to shape a board to get on foil quick as use Axis HPS foils. I've used it once and am really impressed with how it gets going in lighter winds.
I shaped it in the Dave Kalama E3 style. Next light wind board will be 6'5" x23" as I really think the narrow boards do move through the water easier and are what works best for lighter winds.
I've done 6'2 x 23.5 and 5'5 x 23.5. The 5'5 is better in every way.
Going to 6'5 is just more board weight. No gain in light wind based on my testing. 5'5 x 23.5 is already a gunny early take-off board and lively.
This is helpful thank you! You've got me rethinking my plan!
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
Ive got a 5'7" x 22", 80L in fabrication with this purpose in mind. Will report back once I've tested it, but I'm hoping to retire the 7m with this rig...
Please do, I'd be curious to see pics once it's ready, it sounds pretty fun. All the best.
Select to expand quotecamerongraham said..
My E3 DW board is 6'1" x 23" @105 litres
with a GT2200 foil and CWC Strike 8M I have been the only guy on the water the past few sessions whilst others have waited on the the shore for enough wind for their setups.
i can get up and stay up in sub 8 knots very easily
I'm 6' and 80kg so I can stand upright and wait for wind, even in large chop and waves.
At 6'1" the board looks large but in reality feels quite nimble as you stand forward and there is not that much board in front of your feet. I find light wind winging a heap of fun as I can go slow and focus on keeping the board flying learning board/foil skills instead of relying on sheer wind power to keep flying. Yesterday I was riding in a Harbour with a large opening to the ocean so swells and waves were coming through even though the wind was light, so I had heaps of fun using the wind to get me onto the swells and floating along with barely any wind input. Since getting the E3 DW board 6 weeks ago I haven't ridden my wing boards (70 litre and 58 litre) as this board is just so easy and fun.
Edit: the black lines behind the mast are cable guides for my FoilDrive, but I'm hardly using it for winging as I can get up in such light winds with the big wing and big foil. I did use my FoilDrive the other week in 5knots and had a very relaxing session with no frustration, no pumping and glorious smooth water
Great to hear Cameron. You must be getting very close to the ultimate and practical low wind winging setup. The guys at my local area also experimenting with similar setups (DW board, large wing, large foil etc) and having a ton of fun with others (like me) sitting on the beach watching.
Forgot to mention I'm running a 93cm mast as this keeps me up nice and high to minimise the 8M wing tips touching the water
I would echo others here.
Skinniest board with big wing as possible. Ideally under 20" and volume doesn't really matter, we're looking for fast displacement sailing. In terms of foils, I would err not on super big in terms of area, rather efficiency. A 1,000cm HA with low stall speed will always be more fun to ride than MA. In the light we're hunting for efficiency, hence the least wetted surface area possible, maximum sail area and then ideally, foil.
In the summer, I'm usually out in extremely light winds. Thermal wind and often below 10 knots. My setup last year was F-One Strike 7 CWC and big Phantom Foil. I don't give a knot count, but I can foil with it when tube kites are no longer flying and only kitefoilers are out with Flysurfer and Ozone Racekites.
Have experimented with several boards and found no differences in the range of -10L to +10L. Much more important is the shape and if board and foil fit together. A foil like a big Phantom I can pump up well at low speed. For a real high aspect foil, however, I need a board that I can pump up to speed really well.
A board with a positive volume of 10L or more is still advisable in my experience, because it allows you to get through wind holes well or to taxi into an area with more wind.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..rgmacca said..
I've just made a board at 5'6"x25" not sure on volume, Im 85kgs.
I was aiming to shape a board to get on foil quick as use Axis HPS foils. I've used it once and am really impressed with how it gets going in lighter winds.
I shaped it in the Dave Kalama E3 style. Next light wind board will be 6'5" x23" as I really think the narrow boards do move through the water easier and are what works best for lighter winds.
I've done 6'2 x 23.5 and 5'5 x 23.5. The 5'5 is better in every way.
Going to 6'5 is just more board weight. No gain in light wind based on my testing. 5'5 x 23.5 is already a gunny early take-off board and lively.
That's interesting, I would of thought there would be some benefit from going longer. Might have to make a full on DW board and see how that goes.
Select to expand quoteNikOnFoil said..
In the summer, I'm usually out in extremely light winds. Thermal wind and often below 10 knots. My setup last year was F-One Strike 7 CWC and big Phantom Foil. I don't give a knot count, but I can foil with it when tube kites are no longer flying and only kitefoilers are out with Flysurfer and Ozone Racekites.
Have experimented with several boards and found no differences in the range of -10L to +10L. Much more important is the shape and if board and foil fit together. A foil like a big Phantom I can pump up well at low speed. For a real high aspect foil, however, I need a board that I can pump up to speed really well.
A board with a positive volume of 10L or more is still advisable in my experience, because it allows you to get through wind holes well or to taxi into an area with more wind.
These are the same conditions I'm targeting. What board do you use in these light conditions?
Grove Skate Medium (120cm x 48cm x 3 cm). 10m Airush Ultra. Flysurfer Peak 5 for even lower limit. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm so glad I kept my kitefoiling gear for seriously light winds. No comparison to light wind winging or windfoiling or FDA winging. I'm realizing a large percentage of current wingers never went near a kite
I'm using my downwind board a lot in light wind for winging - 6'3"x24x101L at 85kg rider. my biggest Wing is now a 4 metre.
This get me out in the lightest of breezes. It is significantly nicer to ride in lightwind being able to stand up all the time, that way you can spot the gusts coming. My step down board is 5'x75L and I only use a 1000cm2 foil with it in 15 knots upwards.
Benefit of the longer and skinny board is you can use it for Sup, Flatwater paddle ups, Wake riding as well. if I have to take one board away on a trip is is always take the 6'3" as it can do all sports well. For teaching first time learners the skinny boards below 24" are not very good due to reduced stability before take-off.
Select to expand quoteDspace said..
Grove Skate Medium (120cm x 48cm x 3 cm). 10m Airush Ultra. Flysurfer Peak 5 for even lower limit. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm so glad I kept my kitefoiling gear for seriously light winds. No comparison to light wind winging or windfoiling or FDA winging. I'm realizing a large percentage of current wingers never went near a kite
I loved kite foiling for the longest time. I have a 13m peak and as much as it blew my mind I am leaning towards selling it. You just can't compare the freedom wing foiling gives you to ride wind swell. Kites will always be a compromise compared to the wing, limiting your ability to go straight downwind and follow the swell. We had some bad shore break the other day so I went kite foiling after not doing it for a long time. The limits compared to winging were extremely noticeable and frustrating.
I weigh 195lbs and my light wind setup is an 8m CWC, 4'11 60l Armstrong FG, and this is the biggest difference maker for this setup an Axis 1300.
I can easily get going and have fun with this setup in 6-8mph winds. Would like to try a pure dw board as I think I would have the option of a smaller hand wing or foil. I mostly do downwind ocean sessions and I think using a 5m vs the 8m would be possible. And when there is more of a swell in the water maybe use my Cabrinha H1000 which is a lot more fun then the Axis 1300 on a wave.
My 18.75" wide by 6'3" 86L DW board is blowing my mind each session. Just had a my first flat water light wind (5-12knt) session with a 7M OR glide and 1125HA foil. The skinny boards take 1/4 or less effort to get on foil, which is crucial in light and gusty conditions. I didn't know if I'd get up on foil it was so light from the beach (side off with high trees). These conditions at my local, I would avoid on my 60L to my 65kgs due to the frustration of not getting up on a gust - wingtip catching with 7M etc.
The session before that was with a 3M and 1325HA foil in slightly stronger more consistent wind and that went well too, but a lot more pumping ha.
If it was only stable enough for beginners, all boards would be trending this direction. I wish I could teach people on this board, but it's not happening. I struggle at times in choppy water, mostly when I'm getting on my knees. If it starts to tip, it is hard to correct. If you mount it well and balanced, no drama.
Select to expand quoteWindbot said..NikOnFoil said..
In the summer, I'm usually out in extremely light winds. Thermal wind and often below 10 knots. My setup last year was F-One Strike 7 CWC and big Phantom Foil. I don't give a knot count, but I can foil with it when tube kites are no longer flying and only kitefoilers are out with Flysurfer and Ozone Racekites.
Have experimented with several boards and found no differences in the range of -10L to +10L. Much more important is the shape and if board and foil fit together. A foil like a big Phantom I can pump up well at low speed. For a real high aspect foil, however, I need a board that I can pump up to speed really well.
A board with a positive volume of 10L or more is still advisable in my experience, because it allows you to get through wind holes well or to taxi into an area with more wind.
These are the same conditions I'm targeting. What board do you use in these light conditions?
Last year it was most of the time F-One Rocket 5'4 (75L) and 5'5 (85L). This year Indiana 81L for the light. But as I said, this works very well for foils you can pump easily. Not for fast HA foils.
Interesting for ultra low wind are the downwind boards that allow the use of high aspect foils. Since I don't have a downwind spot, this would be a pure light wind solution for me. There is currently so much development (Kalama E3, Takoon Escape, AFS Blackbird, etc.), I'm watching this year and will maybe try next year for ultra light. This year still with "proven" equipment.
I also come from kitefoiling and thought with wings I lose lowend. That may be so in theory, but in practice, with very little wind, the wind is sometimes so regional that you first have to get into the wind zone. Then at my spots there is sometimes no wind at all at the launch site and the kites can't launch at all. But we can paddle or taxi to the wind.
Similar weight to you, board equals it and can pump 6m to flying in 8knts if water flat, 10 knots much easier, and I am not good. Other guys with better technique get up in less wind with smaller boards, foils and wings. Lesson for me is a lot is down to technique, and I suspect setting gear up better to unstick from water
Select to expand quoteDWF said..rgmacca said..
I've just made a board at 5'6"x25" not sure on volume, Im 85kgs.
I was aiming to shape a board to get on foil quick as use Axis HPS foils. I've used it once and am really impressed with how it gets going in lighter winds.
I shaped it in the Dave Kalama E3 style. Next light wind board will be 6'5" x23" as I really think the narrow boards do move through the water easier and are what works best for lighter winds.
I've done 6'2 x 23.5 and 5'5 x 23.5. The 5'5 is better in every way.
Going to 6'5 is just more board weight. No gain in light wind based on my testing. 5'5 x 23.5 is already a gunny early take-off board and lively.
Hey Dwight, just wondering, does the 5'5 x 23.5 have a Kalama style shape or just your regular square tail shape? Thanks
Select to expand quoteDspace said..
Grove Skate Medium (120cm x 48cm x 3 cm). 10m Airush Ultra. Flysurfer Peak 5 for even lower limit. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm so glad I kept my kitefoiling gear for seriously light winds. No comparison to light wind winging or windfoiling or FDA winging. I'm realizing a large percentage of current wingers never went near a kite
I was a kite foiler, peak 4 8mtr was my go too for light wind.
I'm fairly sure my sup downwind set up, 7' x 23 Aviator with 1300 axis foil with a 6 mtr Smik v3 wing would match it for light wind, can still play in the waves and way less chance of it all ending badly.
Not sure what the bottom end would be but definitely less than 10knots I'm guessing less than 8.
Flat fast rocker not trendy rounded beveled arse things that are 5'3" long
www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=735700441583119&set=pcb.735701621583001
My set up of Slick 7m, Armstrong HS1850 and Patrik AIO 5'9" 115 litre board gets me going reliably in 8 -10 kts. (94kgs)
The Patrik AIO has had some unfair comments at the beach becasue it has cut outs but I don't think thses hold it back much.
It also has a 'fin' instead of a hole for a handle, marginal gains I guess.
I compare this set up to a Patrik Foil Ride 125 windfoil board with Severne 7.5m Turbo sail on AFS W95 foils and there is nothing in it in light winds. I now prefer the wingfoil because its easier to rig up and carry and not much slower.
I also have a Gong Zuma 140 for SUP foil and a CF2400 foil but in all cases the larger board and foil are less able to get going in light winds.
The Zuma is 31" wide and I am finding this is too wide for SUP foil let alone winging.
Anyway, happy to be out when its light although my cycling has really suffered because I am on the water all the time!
Select to expand quoteFarNorthSurfer said..
My set up of Slick 7m, Armstrong HS1850 and Patrik AIO 5'9" 115 litre board gets me going reliably in 8 -10 kts. (94kgs)
The Patrik AIO has had some unfair comments at the beach becasue it has cut outs but I don't think thses hold it back much.
It also has a 'fin' instead of a hole for a handle, marginal gains I guess.
I compare this set up to a Patrik Foil Ride 125 windfoil board with Severne 7.5m Turbo sail on AFS W95 foils and there is nothing in it in light winds. I now prefer the wingfoil because its easier to rig up and carry and not much slower.
I also have a Gong Zuma 140 for SUP foil and a CF2400 foil but in all cases the larger board and foil are less able to get going in light winds.
The Zuma is 31" wide and I am finding this is too wide for SUP foil let alone winging.
Anyway, happy to be out when its light although my cycling has really suffered because I am on the water all the time!
Interesting hearing the comparison against the windfoil gear, as that's one I'm always making with my own gear. Aso interesting about the Zuma being less able to get going. Thanks.
Overall there are lots of good comments in this thread, thanks!
Select to expand quoteFarNorthSurfer said..
My set up of Slick 7m, Armstrong HS1850 and Patrik AIO 5'9" 115 litre board gets me going reliably in 8 -10 kts. (94kgs)
The Patrik AIO has had some unfair comments at the beach becasue it has cut outs but I don't think thses hold it back much.
It also has a 'fin' instead of a hole for a handle, marginal gains I guess.
I compare this set up to a Patrik Foil Ride 125 windfoil board with Severne 7.5m Turbo sail on AFS W95 foils and there is nothing in it in light winds. I now prefer the wingfoil because its easier to rig up and carry and not much slower.
I also have a Gong Zuma 140 for SUP foil and a CF2400 foil but in all cases the larger board and foil are less able to get going in light winds.
The Zuma is 31" wide and I am finding this is too wide for SUP foil let alone winging.
Anyway, happy to be out when its light although my cycling has really suffered because I am on the water all the time!
Interesting hearing the comparison against the windfoil gear, as that's one I'm always making with my own gear. Aso interesting about the Zuma being less able to get going. Thanks.
Overall there are lots of good comments in this thread, thanks!
