Hi everyone!
Two questions:
1. Is the high initial investment in a wing foil kit the biggest barrier for people to start the sport?
2. for you personally, what delayed your decision (if it happened)?
I keep trying to convince people to start doing it because it's awesome, but they come up with a wide variety of reasons for not starting.
For me what the initial investment was the biggest barrier as I was uncertain if I was going to enjoy it.
cheers!
I would say let it be.
Plenty of wingers now to keep manufacturers in biz, that is all i need.
Surfing and Kitesurfing have paid a big price for being "popular".Crowded peaks,kitesurfing bans in many places...is that what we want?
Even back with kiting as soon as someone asks me what it costs I lose interest in their questions. Invariably that is the first question.
If you want to do something badly enough cost isn't an issue. You make it happen.
whay delayed me? Didn't want to learn something new yet again and take the kook punishment. Glad I did though. And I'm enjoying the punishment now.
For me, I was always interested in kiting by the time/lessons involved didn't work for me. Once I had prone foiling down and the wing came about, I didn't hesitate and ordered a first generation wing. I was able to teach myself on my own time and schedule.
I imagine that the number of decisions needed to get into the sport can be daunting. Board Size? Wing Size? Foil Size? Etc. I had the foil portion down, so less hard for me. I can imagine retailers are slamming their heads against the wall with the same questions over and over, but hey, getting people dialed in for success is crucial. As soon as lessons are more readily available and people also start wing/Sup'ing, the growth will take off even more.
There is no kiting or windsurfing where I live inside of 2 hours drive. I've always wanted to foil and pick up one of those sports. I have briefly when I lived elsewhere but had a similar problem. I've raced sailboats forever and surf weekly.
For non wing sports people the idea of dropping $5k on a whim is insane, there are only two guys im aware of who do winging lessons within 200 miles. Nobody rents gear. People don't even want to spend $700 on a surfboard and another $300 on a wetsuit. Then you have to be at the whim of the sea and wind, with a job and family it's quite a trip.
I saw a couple people winging and then saw them again, then said "f** it" and bought all the gear slowly to make it affordable. Taught myself, incredibly stoked. Nothing could stop me learning!
Then sold all that and bought top of the line gear a couple times over. It's only been 8 months.dear lord help this sport is $$$. Probably spent more than refitting my old 30ft sailboat. That said I know people fooling for years who have beat up foils and don't upgrade every 3 months. Hopefully I'm one of those people soon.
I think California surfers will be a big convert group in the coming years. The surf is often blown out all spring and summer and picking up in the evenings after work, perfectly dovetailing with winging.
Initially for me, it just didn't look that great but as local riders started getting better they opened my eyes to the potential. When I started seeing videos of guys riding waves with the wing drifting behind them, I knew I needed to join the fun. As a windsurfer for decades who dabbled in kites, sup, prone, and tow-in I have to say this sport has the greatest potential of all of them to experience high performance without needing epic conditions. When the conditions are epic, wingfoiling (as you all know) can be mind-bending fun.
To clarify, I think a lot of guys who have been on the water and are highly competent on other sports will jump on once they gain more exposure to what is possible. From there, the money part has to be figured out but it seems the used prices are going down.
High costs and trash wind are the main reasons where I live. It seems people can't get enough of $5k+ bikes, but putting that much towards a sport that can rarely be done and is totally weather dependent is a big ask. I have tried to be passionate about biking, but I am wired to take a mediocre day on the water over a perfect day of North Shore riding. The last thing I want is the sport to become as popular as mountain biking with parking lots filling up before 8am. It'll never become a mainstream sport, and that is a good thing.
For me it is a combination of specific factors that makes me "the exception that confirms the rule" (as we say in French):
- 45 years of Windsurfing, I cannot stand the wind anymore. I just LOOOVE the magic of glassy conditions, chop is for me an ugly graffiti on the art that is a clean wave...
- 45 years of Windsurfing, I cannot stand having too much gear anymore. Especially when you have long walks in the sand. And to be too dependent on your gear for enjoyment.
- Basically, I never touched my Windsurfing gear anymore once I started SUPing 12 years ago.
- I moved in Hossegor lured by its powerful beach break conditions... that will happily destroy the (currently) fragile Wing gear (compared to Windsurfing gear). I hate driving, so I am not ready to drive to sheltered spots to Wing.
- 61 years of age, retired: I do not need to be on the water everyday. I am happy to have days off the water when there is wind to let my body rest. I understand Wing is ideal for the "week end warriors" that have only the week-end to get on the water, whatever the conditions
- Foiling is "meh" for me. The technical challenge of learning it was exhilarating, but afterwards... I'd rather be on a SUP for a more direct, animal, contact with the water. I guess because in Hossegor, if you can foil, you can also find nice little peaks for SUPing with the alsways changing tides and sand banks. My last foil sessions have been full of "whoa, what a nice little peeler here, why am I not on my SUP to enjoy it?". So adding a sail to it is even less attractive.
Basically, I would still be working in a Mediterranean town (a big lake: nice thermal winds, small waves on a very diverse coastline), I would be definitively Winging.
Learnt to prone first then got into to wing later, If I had to choose between the 2 it would be prone hands down all day everyday. Love the simplicity of prone and being able to pump and turn so much easier without a wing in the way and in the best conditions. The only thing good about the wing is for DW, it gets you into waves easily and opens up that world, not really interested in flat water mowing. I come from surfing,windsurfing/ kiting background and the wind wings are so low performance and hard work compared to a kite.
I took up winging in the beginning of 2019, did it a few times and then didnt do it for a long time because the gear wasnt that great back then. I had a prototype Swing, a 120L foilsup and a huge surf foil, and it was just too slow coming of my very fast freestyle windfoil setup. I also started kiteboarding at the same time, which with the speed and airs tickled my interests a little more. Fast forward to summer 2020, and gear had progressed a lot, fast foils and jumping peaked my interest, and now its my main sport!
I think one thing which stops a lot of people from trying it is the fact it often looks quite dull compared to kiteboarding and windsurfing on flat water spots, especially when people are just starting out on huge beginner gear. Ofcourse this changes once people start pulling aerials, but on the busiest days there are around 15 wingers out at my lake, but often there's only 2 or 3 which are capable of jibing/tacking and practicing freestyle.
Like windsurfing, kitesurfing, shortboard surfing, foiling is also an APEX sport.
1. Theres the hours of investment to get to the the part where it's fun. Many of us, myself include like the challenge, weekend warriors or your average Joe/Jane, don't.
2. It's expensive. Not like yacht, race car, polo expensive, but certainly more than a racket and ball.
3. Foiling, like Kiting and Windsurfing can be technical and confusing. There's a lot of parts. ??
I do think the wing foil is the most approachable of all the apex sports. I do see an Avenue for those who already own SUP's to get a wing so they can play on windy days.
So there you have it..enjoy the ride. It's cool to be at the front end of a sport.
Aside from not having good conditions near by?
1, Cost is a significant factor. My wing gear is worth more than my car.
2, Apparent risk: the foil surfers got so banged up learning the sport, many folks think foiling is very dangerous.
3, Difficulty: Wing Foiling is for people too stupid to quit. Smarter folks move on to easier sports like golf or free climbing. Only the dumb ones like us spend lots of time and money to repeatedly crash in new and specular ways.
Many more people will take it up, many still in denial!! For me it's all about your local conditions and convenience.....
I have to travel 1 hour for decent waves which has always been annoying especially as I live on a beach/estuary... tiresome albeit 1st world problem..
Tried kite surfing, I had no patience for lines and needing people for launch and land. Definitely not for me..
Windsurfing looks magic if there's loads of wind which we don't get all that often. Kit - be Jesus, do me a favour!!!!
Winging - boooom.. I now Wing I in my estuary (2 minute walk from my doorstep), I Wing in ****e onshore waves at my local beach (3 minutes away) - which feels more exhilarating than non foil surfing. I couldn't be any more cheesy smiles I feel like I've won the fxxxing lottery.
I think the biggest crossover will be from Surfers who aren't getting in enough due to lack of quality waves - normally spoilt by wind direction!!!! The more Wing surfing clips the more crossovers..
Happy winging Peeps..
I think the uncertainty is the biggest killer. Lots of people who haven't done much or any watersports question me about what it's like. I tell them it's great but there's a fairly substantial learning curve. The last thing I want to do is heavily promote the sport and find a bunch of people get into it, find they can't do it, or haven't got the time to become competent enough to enjoy it, and feel like they've been sold a dud. As suggested above, dropping multiple $K on a whim is not what most people can justify.
If people could try it, and KNOW what it's like, how hard it is and whether they have some capacity to enjoy it, then more would probably be able to justify the outlay.
For me, I was doing lots of windfoiling and saw dinging as another thing to learn and consume time. One of our fellow sailors took up dinging, raved about it and after seeing him progress to pretty competent standard in sub 6 months, I made the change. I'm currently loaning some of my extra gear to mates so they can see if it's for them and make up their minds on the cost/benefits of getting into it.
Cost and all the gear needed. Compared to surfing it is really expensive and you need way more gear. Easier to go do something else if it is windy.
A few things for me at the moment as I get into winging (as a non surfer or wind person):
1) the boards seem expensive, and I don't like spending big on a high litre board that I am hoping I can outgrow quickly.
2) non universal foil equipment is annoying and choosing an appropriate set of foils doesn't come intuitively. I don't know which brand to go with.
3) as accessible as winging is, it's kind of a hostile environment being out on the water while the wind is ripping. Until I have some friends who look out for eachother I think I will feel out of my comfort zone.
Will be good when the second hand market gets to the place where you can pick up a decent board, wing , foil for 500 each.
In any population there are only a small number of people with the technical aptitude and wherewithal to do wind sports let alone who actually have the means and want to do them.
I recall a reader income survey by windsurfing magazine in the early 90's which was over 100K USD , at that time over double average income. If we did a similar survey of Wingfoilers today I bet the ratio has not changed. Wind sports are the preserve of the elite earners, sponsored hotshots or those willing to sacrifice to play.
I reached maximum price pain threshold this week when I bought the OR HL wing instead of Allula, I couldn't justify the cost benefit despite the wife approved either. I don't like that feeling because I always like to have the best gear. It last happened to me Windsurfing in the 90's Slalom racing scene when I was spending crazy money every year to stay competitive, then the sport imploded and most of us took up kiting.
Then you have the fact that unless you have existing wind and board skills like most of us here it's not that easy. I've just completed a 4 month road trip along the NSW coast and almost exclusively all the really good wingfoilers are old dogs who have come through windsurfing, kiting, sup and now wingfoil. Maybe it's because I'm only ever out in the surf but I never meet anyone who has started from zero and are ripping.
I think when you combine the high costs with degree of difficultly for average people wingfoiling growth is likely to flame out sooner than we think.
That's okay so long as there are a couple of companies left to build great gear for the rest of us who can't get enough foil time.
KB7
those that don't have the skill to kite or kite foil should try winging, but if you can twin tip kiting, I advise to learn kite foiling first and your progression will be so much faster.
Once you master foiling, any discipline with the foil be it: kiting, winging, prone will be easy
Yeh nah I read the above and don't subscribe to the cost factor. Back in 1999 kites were damn expensive because no one did it and there was no economies of scale as yet. I didn't even have full time work, was essentially broke but saw kiting and said "gonna do that". I went without, prioritised, made plans and got lessons and a kite. I still go without today to afford gear and prioritise it over nearly everything else except my kids education. We don't eat out, we don't go on expensive holidays, we don't buy stuff we don't need with money we don't have. Be committed or Fck right off I say. Well that's what I'm thinking of course I wouldn't say that.
Windfoiled for about 4 years. After a friend of mine started Winging I had a frustrating session of lugging my gear in and out of the water changing foils 3 times as the conditions changed and he was happy as a clam Wingfoiling the whole time.
After I punched him on the beach, I bought a wing and used it with my Windfoil board and it worked great. By the 4th session, I knew it was time to sell all windfoiling gear and replace it entirely with Winging.
Yes, I spent a lot, if there's anything I've learned in windsurfing/foiling, the most expensive thing you can do is to try and save money, I bought the right gear and am extremely happy, or at least as happy as a wind addict can be...
DC
Select to expand quotenorth_kiter said..
those that don't have the skill to kite or kite foil should try winging, but if you can twin tip kiting, I advise to learn kite foiling first and your progression will be so much faster.
Once you master foiling, any discipline with the foil be it: kiting, winging, prone will be easy
Not sure I agree with that.. I've seen plenty of kiters at my beach not stick with Winging as its "too difficult.." I'd say Wing foiling is more difficult (but safer) to learn than twin tip Kiting..
Select to expand quoteIanInca said..north_kiter said..
those that don't have the skill to kite or kite foil should try winging, but if you can twin tip kiting, I advise to learn kite foiling first and your progression will be so much faster.
Once you master foiling, any discipline with the foil be it: kiting, winging, prone will be easy
Not sure I agree with that.. I've seen plenty of kiters at my beach not stick with Winging as its "too difficult.." I'd say Wing foiling is more difficult (but safer) to learn than twin tip Kiting..
Which is why he said learn to kitefoil first which I agree with. A wing is far easier to learn and safer than a kite, but the foiling part is the difficult part. I think that is what he meant anyhow.
to add the basics that is. Jumping, tacks, rotations and all that jazz is harder on a wing. That's why I see windsurfers who did this kind of trickery progress more quickly. than a dude who came from say kitefoiling only.
Your absolutely right Eppo.
A wing or kite is the power source and you have to master that before learning the foil IMO. To learn both wing and foil at the same time will only increase the learning curve.
If you can already twin tip and you are interested in winging and can't foil, learn to foil on a 1250cm wing first, and when you can go heel side to toe side and back then you'll pick up winging in no time. Just use a board that is equal to your body weight in volume or + 10L and a 6m wing and go out in 16+ knots to start with. You need more wind than you think to get the foil to fly in the early stages.
You can learn the wing on the beach, the knee starts, walking with the wing and gybing and tacking all without the board, if you can't do this on the beach then don't expect to be able to do it on the water. The more time you invest on the beach will pay dividends on the water.
Definitely don't believe what you see on youtube with all the whippets 60-70kg winging on tiny boards in Maui, that is not reality for 90% of wingers.
Don't be afraid of a challenge, the experience is humbling, and very rewarding once you pass the beginner phases.
Select to expand quoteGoofcat said..
Aside from not having good conditions near by?
1, Cost is a significant factor. My wing gear is worth more than my car.
2, Apparent risk: the foil surfers got so banged up learning the sport, many folks think foiling is very dangerous.
3, Difficulty: Wing Foiling is for people too stupid to quit. Smarter folks move on to easier sports like golf or free climbing. Only the dumb ones like us spend lots of time and money to repeatedly crash in new and specular ways.
to true
Select to expand quoteeppo said..IanInca said..north_kiter said..
those that don't have the skill to kite or kite foil should try winging, but if you can twin tip kiting, I advise to learn kite foiling first and your progression will be so much faster.
Once you master foiling, any discipline with the foil be it: kiting, winging, prone will be easy
Not sure I agree with that.. I've seen plenty of kiters at my beach not stick with Winging as its "too difficult.." I'd say Wing foiling is more difficult (but safer) to learn than twin tip Kiting..
Which is why he said learn to kitefoil first which I agree with. A wing is far easier to learn and safer than a kite, but the foiling part is the difficult part. I think that is what he meant anyhow.
to add the basics that is. Jumping, tacks, rotations and all that jazz is harder on a wing. That's why I see windsurfers who did this kind of trickery progress more quickly. than a dude who came from say kitefoiling only.
I learned kitefoiling and wingfoiling at the same time, and have to say winging is easier. For the first consistent meters maybe kitefoiling is easier because you can lean against the power more than with a wing, which will require you to be far more upright. A foiling waterstart is very much different from a twintip or even waveboard waterstart though, with a lot of beginners shooting up / foiling out every time they send the kite because they are used to loading the back foot. Winging speed changes are also farmore gradual which increase foil control. In addition, I think learning kitefoiling often results in "bad technique" once you try to get into transitions. Transitions require a way more upright stance than most beginner kitefoilers have, which means you will kind of have to unlearn leaning into the foil. Also once you start going into transitions in winging you pretty much park the wing and make the turn, in kiting you have to do a lot right at the same time. Its very easy to overtake your kite downwind for example, and have not managed to do a tack kitefoiling yet, while I have a pretty much 99% successrate both heel to toe and toe to heel tacking with the wing.
To be honest, what I've found from giving a lot of wingfoil clinics is that the best crossover sports are to start winging from surfing, or maybe even snowboarding, as they require the upright/over the board weight ditribution to begin with. This means people coming from these sports have a lot less problems with the board rolling out from under them once they get on the foil, even while they often dont have any "wind" experience.
